1969 Avanti II

[Laughing Coyote]

I'm sure this would make a good Christmas gift for someone.

https://tucson.craigslist.org/cto/d/obtain-some-old-studebaker/6427703098.html

 

[Guest]

Looks like a bargain to me! That's a lot of car for very little money. Someone can get into the collector car game for very little money with this one.

Edited December 17, 2017 by GregLaR (see edit history)

[alsancle]

So it says 3500.  But then says "Best offer by Dec 21st probably takes it."   Does that mean 3500 or BO?

 

I MUCH prefer the 63/64 but there are not too many interesting cars you can buy for 3500.
 

[Laughing Coyote]

Yes, They probably would take $2800 - $3000 if there is nobody interested in buying it.

[Gary_Ash]

My snarky Studebaker friends would say "There is nothing more expensive than a cheap Avanti!".   I've always thought it cheaper to replace sun-damaged upholstery than salt-rusted sheet metal from a New England car, but in the case of a fiberglass Avanti in Arizona, I might have to reconsider.  Usually, the worst problem is rusted-out stamped-steel "hog troughs" that form the body supports underneath, shouldn't be an issue for a western car.  That said, the car looks pretty good, maybe a little buffing and attention to fluids might be enough - once a set of keys gets made.  A new ignition switch with keys is $62 from Studebaker International.  Engine should be Chevy 350, brakes very standard 11" hydraulics, more than adequate for good stopping power, easily available and cheap parts.  If you don't like the drum brakes, Turner Brakes can supply a kit to install modern disks.

[SC38dls]

Snarky Studebaker friends! Heck most Studebaker people will say that! 

[Buffalowed Bill]

 I've owned three Avantis over the last fifty years. Still own my first, a 1964 Studebaker, that I've had since 1967. I got stuck driving the 64 for much of my last two years of college, and then into the 70's. Having to rely on it for transportation, kind of developed a love-hate relationship. I could fill a page, and maybe still not cover the quirks of the beast. Today there are obvious reasons for their collectability, but I will never forget those years behind the wheel. I'll try to be charitable and say they are fun if the car is right, it's a dry, 70 degree day, and the stars are aligned. Any variation from that scenario, and they can be a nightmare!

 

  I guess that I have picked up some knowledge of these, but certainly no expert. A couple of points that need comment. The brakes are not a problem. They have front discs and drum rears. The discs the were used were the same as those used on the Jaguar and certainly as good as any used the mid 60's, but they did have one interesting quirk. Maybe it was because of the expense of replacing the discs, but the design was such, and unlike today's brakes, once they had worn down to a certain point the linings just stopped contacting the disc. So one day you realize that major part of your braking has just disappeared! If you've ever had a car with only RW brakes, you know what this can be like on wet pavement! An inspection of the linings show that there is still some left. It took me a while to figure that one out.

 

The second thing, the engine. As Gary indicated it could be a 350 cu" Chev, small block, but it could also be 327 cu." The 327 was the engine initially used in 1966, and continued until it was superseded by the 350 or the 400. The 400 doesn't have the good reputation that the others do, so it's not as simple as it might seem.

 

Third comment is regarding the fiberglass repair. I've seen some pretty bad repair jobs over the years. One nice thing about the design using fiberglass on a full frame, is that in an accident the fiberglass just kind of disintegrates when impacted. This means that the impact force is somewhat moderated before it reaches the driver's compartment, and  there is a built in roll bar overhead. I remember the aftermath of an accident that a young friend had back in the 70's, when he rolled his car at over 100 MPH. The car rolled three times, and both he and his passenger walked away! There was not a single piece of fiberglass piece, more then two feet square that survived, but they were basically were unhurt!    

[padgett]

Is a SBC, was a 350 in 69 if not an earlier engine and looks like either a THM350 or 400, both are good with a SBC but ages before lockup. If interested ask for the motor number. 400 with overheat issues was later. Has AC. Looks fairly easy to make a #3 car if no rust or damage underneath.

[60FlatTop]

I had one a few years ago, 1976 Avanti II, but the previous owner had sanded it, put a primer coat on, and left it outside. The gelcoat was completely shot and I was looking at $3,000 to fix it myself. I sold it. And it sure left in style. Another one

 

I should have kept.

[alsancle]

I have a friend with a 64 R2 4speed with special order Black paint.  Documented, original needing a bunch of work.  If anybody is interested PM me.  I talked myself out of it.

[trimacar]

I would think it goes without saying, but the differences between the original Avanti and the Avanti II are great, not the same car at all except for a resemblance.  Even that isn't exact, look at the height of the body surface above the front wheel well, on an original it's minimal, and an Avanti II it's much higher/thicker.

 

This is a case where rarity doesn't mean value.  There were about 4600 Avantis made 1963-64, and the continuation Avanti II had production of about 2200 up into the 1980's.  The original Avanti brings much more money, although they're still a bargain compared to other "sports cars" of the era......

[Buffalowed Bill]

Trimacar's comments not exactly true, hate to take exception, but got to keep the record straight. In the first years the Avanti II's, mechanically, used Studebaker sourced parts, with a Chev. engine. As time went by, and as they began to run out of the original stash of Studebaker parts, they made changes. There's a pretty well developed timeline for the specific changes, but in 1969 they still had a reasonable supply of the original stuff. Flat Top's 1976 would have seen a number of the necessary changes, having been made.

[trimacar]

I stand by my comment.  Yes, it looked mostly  like an original Avanti, and used some Studebaker parts, but when you eliminate the original Studebaker drivetrain and replace it with GM components, and then offer 400 or so options that weren't on the original car, then you're just producing a custom hot rod.

[Buffalowed Bill]

Ok I give up! from your definition it is different. The things that are the same: transmission, drive shaft, rear end, front and rear suspension, brakes, frame, body shell, dash, window winders, door latches, bumpers,  and glass-granted everything else is different. 

[trimacar]

Rolls Royce goes out of business.  Someone makes new bodies, puts in a Chevrolet engine, and uses some leftover parts from the Rolls Royce factory to finish the car.  Would you call that vehicle a Rolls Royce?

 

There are Studebaker Avantis, and Avanti IIs, but they are not the same car, and they are not equal in the eyes of collectors.

 

That's my opinion.  If your opinion differs, which it obviously does, then that's fine,  we can all get along.....

[SC38dls]

‘‘Tis the Christmas & Holiday season. I always thought the difference was round and square headlights. What do I know .....?????

[padgett]

Thought only the originals had round headlight bezels.

[SC38dls]

42 minutes ago, padgett said:

Thought only the originals had round headlight bezels.

So you’re in the same boat I am 

[Frank DuVal]

1963 Avanti's had round headlamps and round trim rings.

 

1964 Avanti's had round headlamps and rectangular trim rings. 

 

The later Avanti II's kept with the round headlamp and rectangular trim until they switched to rectangular headlamps and trim. I do not know that year.

 

And, it seems the Avanti II's did use the Studebaker chassis until about 1985! There were a lot of unsold chassis back in South Bend! Then it switched to Chevrolet Monte Carlo, then Caprice. In case one does not know the Avanti used the same chassis as the rest of the Studebaker lineup in 63, just simple modifications. The company did not have money to retool every part. 

 

[Guest]

Maybe it's just me but doesn't the company who actually puts the emblem on the grill decide what the car is?

I remember the 2nd generation Pontiac Trans Am showing up in the 1970's with the Oldsmobile 350 V-8 and eventually the Chevrolet 305 V-8 (the purists went berserk) and, while these were certainly not considered the apogee of the Trans Am marque, they were still marketed as Trans Ams. There were probably others as well.

Just sayin'.....

[trimacar]

6 hours ago, GregLaR said:

Maybe it's just me but doesn't the company who actually puts the emblem on the grill decide what the car is?

I remember the 2nd generation Pontiac Trans Am showing up in the 1970's with the Oldsmobile 350 V-8 and eventually the Chevrolet 305 V-8 (the purists went berserk) and, while these were certainly not considered the apogee of the Trans Am marque, they were still marketed as Trans Ams. There were probably others as well.

Just sayin'.....

But, these were still built by Pontiac, not another company, so it was still a "Pontiac Trans Am".  Studebaker quit building Avantis in 1964.  Parts and pieces were then sold to another company, which continued to build a similar car.

 

It's no problem, I'm not criticizing the Avanti II in any way, just saying it's not a Studebaker Avanti.  If one owns an Avanti II and wants to believe they own an original Avanti, then it's no skin off my back.  I never meant for this to be confrontational.

[SC38dls]

Trimacar not confrontational just informative.  

Frank that makes it clear

Greg makes sense as a Studebaker is a Studebaker and another company is an Avanti II. 

That was simple and everyone gets to be right!

Merry Christmas to all 

Have Fun

Dave S 

[60FlatTop]

General Motors will put any name on anything. I'm surprised they don't offer an Opel based Darryl.

Bernie

[Guest]

8 hours ago, trimacar said:

But, these were still built by Pontiac, not another company, so it was still a "Pontiac Trans Am".  Studebaker quit building Avantis in 1964.  Parts and pieces were then sold to another company, which continued to build a similar car.

Point taken. Sorry, I'm not that well versed in Studebakers.

[Buffalowed Bill]

My only point in responding was that people seemed interested, and there were questions to be answered. The fact is that the 1969 is a different car, from the 1976 and the 1985 is much different again, and I thought that people needed to know. It doesn't make any difference that, for years, the Avanti II was assembled in one of the old Studebaker buildings, in South Bend, and mostly by former Studebaker employees that worked on the original Avanti, but it's some trivia some might enjoy knowing.

 

I learn new things every day on the forum, but if it's incorrect information then I appreciate it if someone steps up to correct it. To me misinformation is worse then no information. God knows there is enough misinformation in the world!

[padgett]

Greg: those were "corporate" engines. Besides the hood decal on the Olds engined Firebirds did not say "T/A", only those with the Poncho 400 did. Those were followed by the Pontiac 301 of which the less said the better.

 

ps of the GM divisions, Pontiac never got a new "big block", instead the 455 was a long stroke version of the original 287 but the really low point was the '80 265 which was a SBC.

[intimeold]

Differences:

 

I thought this would be a good time to ask this question:

 

Do the Avanti II's have the hog troughs rust, and related rust problems.  But in asking that question, I understand the early AvantII's had more Studebaker parts that the later Avanti II'.

 

Then on some original Studebaker Avanti's, a few had rust problems at the rear bumper brackets; same question about his.

 

Any info would be appreciated   

 

intimeold

Edited December 20, 2017 by intimeold (see edit history)

[MikeC5]

While I understand how the Chevy engine could be off putting, remember that Studebaker did the very same thing themselves in the last 2 years of production in Canada.  I suspect the tranny is GM sourced too unless they had a pile of the Borg-Warner units to use up.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Buffalowed Bill said:

God knows there is enough misinformation in the world!

 

Funny you mention that.

My wife was a 411 operator when I met her, so I actually married Miss Information. 

 

Edited December 19, 2017 by GregLaR (see edit history)

[trimacar]

12 hours ago, intimeold said:

Do the Avanti II's have the hog troughsrust, and related rust problems.

 

As mentioned earlier, until the Avanti II went to a Monte Carlo chassis, the Avanti II used the same frame and the same hog trough.  Thus, the same rust issues, adjusted for not being as old as the original Avanti by successive years, would occur and should be checked when buying one.

 

I looked at a website that sells Avanti and Avanti II parts, and the stamped replacement hog trough is about $1300....either are expensive cars to restore.

[Buffalowed Bill]

To the trans, no the first generation Avanti II used the same BW automatic trans as was used in the original Avanti. Engines were initially the only thing outsourced for the A II. An interesting, but unverified, story indicated the very first A II's used wrecking yard Chev sourced 327 engines. The engines were supposedly completely rebuilt prior to installation. 

[intimeold]

On 12/19/2017 at 7:39 AM, trimacar said:

 

As mentioned earlier, until the Avanti II went to a Monte Carlo chassis, the Avanti II used the same frame and the same hog trough.  Thus, the same rust issues, adjusted for not being as old as the original Avanti by successive years, would occur and should be checked when buying one.

 

I looked at a website that sells Avanti and Avanti II parts, and the stamped replacement hog trough is about $1300....either are expensive cars to restore.

Thank You for clearing that up.

[60FlatTop]

Newman & Altman, Southbend Studebaker dealers kept the Avanti alive as the Avanti II when Studebaker moved to Canada and left the Avanti behind. I was a kid then and remember all that going on. The Canadian Studebakers had GM engines in them. I flipped a '65 or '66 Lark with a factory Chevy six in it sometime in the early '70's.

 

I was in the old Newman & Altman building for a spring Studebaker swap meet in the mid-1990's. There is a Willard battery sign in the garage and a meet T shirt in the dresser.

 

I drove a '56 Golden Hawk to High School for a while. It was parked at my parents house while I was in the Navy. Town said only one old car per yard and I gave it to a friend to make room for my Grandmother's '36 Chevy when she moved from the mansion with a carriage house to a ranch house.

 

Here's that Chevy. It is still around as a street rod. Should have kept the Hawk and the Avanti II. All I got left is a Willard battery sign and a stinkin' T-shirt.

Bernie