Carolina Roadmasters: Collect all 4 - '38 Roadmaster Model 87

[Matt Harwood]

16 minutes ago, 38Buick 80C said:

 

NASCAR motor shop near me

If anyone knows how to fix something that's "all blowed up," it's them!

[EmTee]

That must be a stout engine stand! 

 

Has any other machining been done on the block?  Looks like the bores haven't been honed yet.

[38Buick 80C]

6 hours ago, EmTee said:

That must be a stout engine stand! 

 

Has any other machining been done on the block?  Looks like the bores haven't been honed yet.

Bored 30 over and honed. Also planed the deck and replaced the cam bearings that's all this shop did.

[38Buick 80C]

Missing chrome piece arrived today 👍

[38Buick 80C]

No work or soccer so finally started the build on the motor. I made decent progress.

 

main bearing going in and then lubed with Ultra Slick

 

got the crank set in which is no easy task since it weighs about as much as a modern Hyundai

 

the mains on the crack were turned to .020 but still required the shims to get the clearance I wanted as I prefer the motor be built to the loose end of the tolerances.

 

 

I did remember to put the nuts in the for the flywheel

 

I did check all the mains with plastic gauge and am happy with the clearances and though not pictured I put in the new rope seal at the rear main along with the side seals.

next up was getting the pistons ready which took longer than I expected honestly, but all set for tomorrow to install them

 

Final thing for the days was putting the new rope seal in for the timing chain cover.

 

 

Tomorrow my goal is to put all the pistons in and confirm clearances with plastic gauge then I want to get the oil pump in and hopefully the front motor mount, timing gears and chains and cover. We will see how I do.

 

 

Edited August 20, 2022 by 38Buick 80C (see edit history)

[EmTee]

3 hours ago, 38Buick 80C said:

the mains on the crack were turned to .020 but still required the shims to get the clearance I wanted as I prefer the motor be built to the loose end of the tolerances.

Interesting to see the process for reassembling that big Buick 8.  Did all of the mains require shims?  Were those shims original to the engine?

[38Buick 80C]

19 minutes ago, EmTee said:

Interesting to see the process for reassembling that big Buick 8.  Did all of the mains require shims?  Were those shims original to the engine?

yes and yes

[rodneybeauchamp]

11 hours ago, 38Buick 80C said:

 

 

 

got the crank set in which is no easy task since it weighs about as much as a modern Hyundai

Should be much much lighter now it is turned 0.020 under 😀😀😀😀😀😀

11 hours ago, 38Buick 80C said:

 

 

the mains on the crack were turned to .020 but still required the shims to get the clearance I wanted as I prefer the motor be built to the loose end of the tolerances.

 

 

 

 

Interesting as to why you wanted it built on the loose end of the tolerances. When blueprinting an engine, usually you want all the tolerances to be even or close to even.
 

And usually in the middle of the range. Can I ask your reasoning as to why you wanted yours at the upper (loose) end?

 

cheers

Rodney 😀😀😀😀😀😀

[38Buick 80C]

1 hour ago, rodneybeauchamp said:

Should be much much lighter now it is turned 0.020 under 😀😀😀😀😀😀

Interesting as to why you wanted it built on the loose end of the tolerances. When blueprinting an engine, usually you want all the tolerances to be even or close to even.
 

And usually in the middle of the range. Can I ask your reasoning as to why you wanted yours at the upper (loose) end?

 

cheers

Rodney 😀😀😀😀😀😀

 

So back in the 80s dad had a friend that blueprinted his 38 Buick motor to the tight end of the tolerances, it seized in 50 miles. Another time in the 90s when dad had to have the crank turned on his model 81 an old timer who had done a lot of Buick straight 8s told us the motors like to be loose. So when I did my 80C I did middle of the range or looser (within tolerances of course) for the bottom end like I am doing here.

 

So call it superstition or listening to my elders I guess.

[DonMicheletti]

I have heard the sme thing about not setting them up tight by oltimers

[38Buick 80C]

Sorry didn't get to post this last night but generally made the progress I wanted to make. I didn't get the timing chain cover on cause the motor shop took the oil galley plugs out and I didn't have the right tool to put them back in. Without the timing chain cover I didn't want to do the oil pan so I focused on cleaning up the hardware instead and called it a day to go to the MLS game last night.

 

first I got all the pistons in.

 

Then checked the clearances on the connecting rods. I had a set converted to insert bearings and it would seem shims were not needed. I made sure to add the lock nuts

 

here is it all bolted back together the pink marks were for me to know I torqued the nuts to the correct setting and then added the lock nuts.

 

I put the motor mount plate on and put some temp bolts in for the gasket maker used with the gasket to set.

 

got the crank to TDC

 

then the cam to the mark as I had noted it when I took it apart and then the # of chain links apart were marked with pink to make it easier for me to make sure it didn't slip while installing.

 

I have to look at the placement of this oil splash ring... seems like it should go inside the cover, but don't remember and need to look for now it is hanging out so I don't forget it.

 

installed the studs for the head, but didn't feel like lifting that widow maker in to place just yet. Going to use my cherry picker instead

 

I cleaned and installed the crack case ventilator for painting.

 

and as noted I started cleaning the bolts. here are the only ones I took pictures of, oil pan bolts.

 

but I did the timing cover, head bolts, bell housing and flywheel cover bolts, water pump and thermostat housing bolts, push rod cover bolts, and some misc. others.

 

 

Goal for next weekend is to have get the head set, and all the covers on for painting. I plan to take the motor off the stand to add the bell housing also for painting and then reinstall it to the stand off the bell housing. those previously noted items will probably be in a different order... I would like to paint it next weekend but will probably be labor day weekend, so when the wife gets made at me for painting and stinking up the house I can say its my birthday and be in less trouble... LOL

Edited August 22, 2022 by 38Buick 80C (see edit history)

[EmTee]

44 minutes ago, 38Buick 80C said:

I made sure to add the lock nuts

 

Did you use any threadlocker on those rod bolts?  Those sheetmetal locknuts would make me nervous...  Are they new?

[38Buick 80C]

Just now, EmTee said:

 

Did you use any threadlocker on those rod bolts?  Those sheetmetal locknuts would make me nervous...  Are they new?

no and no

[EmTee]

Is there a torque spec for the rod bolt locknuts, or are they just tightened until they're 'snug'?

[38Buick 80C]

29 minutes ago, EmTee said:

Is there a torque spec for the rod bolt locknuts, or are they just tightened until they're 'snug'?

snug,

the real nuts are to 60-65

Edited August 22, 2022 by 38Buick 80C (see edit history)

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

2 hours ago, EmTee said:

Is there a torque spec for the rod bolt locknuts, or are they just tightened until they're 'snug'?

 

 They are called "pal nuts" and flex at the part that screws into the thread.  Probably not engineering grammar, best I can do.   Buick may still use them.  They are still sold at aircraft supply. so must be good.👍

 

  Ben

[DonMicheletti]

Brian,

The engine work you are doing is my favorite part of a restoration.

The cam timing method used by Buick has gotten more than one guy who is used to aligning the marks at 6:00 and 12:00.

 

I really question the need for the PAL nuts. Most engines do not use them, none do now. I'd like to know Buicks thoughts on why they were used.

Rod nuts have gone from using cotter pins to PAL nuts to nothing to keep them tight

[38Buick 80C]

Mixed bag today...started by taking the motor off the stand in order to mount it to the bell housing

Started with putting in the plug for the cam

 

And then I mounted the fly wheel

 

And then mounted the clutch

 

Unfortunately I snapped a bolt

 

I determined best course of action would be to mount it on the stand so I could extract it so I proceeded with the bell housing. Guess I never took a photo.

 

I struggled to mount it to the engine stand and then when I was successful it was definitely overloading the stand. I don't feel it was the weight more that it was the length. So long story short safe than sorry. I backtracked and took all that off remounted the block directly to the stand.

 

Next up mounted the head to the block

 

The head already had brass expansion plugs so I left them alone

 

I mounted the push rod pan, the valve cover and the oil pan. All of those I put gasket maker on only one side so that I can take them off later after painting. The timing chain cover also went on but with gasket maker on both sides of the gasket.

 

 

Before putting on the valve cover I had to put the studs in with Red loctite

 

I put breast freeze plugs in on the block so they don't rust. The middle one however, is where they fix the crack and the hole was a bit elliptical so had to work with that one a little bit.

 

Finally added the breather tube

 

One good thing about going backwards. I was able to extract that broken bolt very easily from the flywheel.

 

Tomorrow we have soccer so may get only a little time to do a few more things. 

 

 

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Looking good, young sir.

  Probably beating a dead horse, but oh well.  I trust you are aware of the need for a shorter stud in the outside hole of the back rocker arm stand?  One too long will impact the temp sensor. At least this is the case with the smaller engine.

[38Buick 80C]

2 hours ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

Looking good, young sir.

  Probably beating a dead horse, but oh well.  I trust you are aware of the need for a shorter stud in the outside hole of the back rocker arm stand?  One too long will impact the temp sensor. At least this is the case with the smaller engine.

Interesting hadn't heard that before. I have not touched the studs in the head, most of the rocker arm is held in by bolts. I won't put the rocker arms in until the motor is mounted in the chassis.

[EmTee]

10 hours ago, 38Buick 80C said:

...most of the rocker arm is held in by bolts. I won't put the rocker arms in until the motor is mounted in the chassis.

Don't forget to use thread sealer on the short rocker support bolts that screw into through-holes above the spark plugs, or oil will leak into the sparkplug area, run out from under the cover and dribble down the side of your nice, clean and freshly painted engine... 

[38Buick 80C]

6 hours ago, EmTee said:

Don't forget to use thread sealer on the short rocker support bolts that screw into through-holes above the spark plugs, or oil will leak into the sparkplug area, run out from under the cover and dribble down the side of your nice, clean and freshly painted engine... 

yes I noted that from your thread and will do that at that time.

[38Buick 80C]

Not much today, too busy with soccer.

 

Mounted the harmonic damper. Backside was painted black before mounting for rust control mostly.

 

Then cleaned up some more hardware and started masking off stuff or putting bolts in for plugs.

 

Hoping to paint next weekend. Including belhousing and misc items like water pump, t-stats housing, intake manifold, etc.

[DonMicheletti]

The back of the harmonic balancer on my '38 Special was painted green, suggesting that it was painted before mounting. It was an original engine. I found that very strange, but the back of the water pump was painted too.

[kgreen]

Not saying you did this, but I put my flywheel on thinking it had only one dedicated position.  I miss-placed the TDC timing mark because the flywheel didn't have a fixed position, rotation-wise.   I was amazed that I found the correct flywheel placement on the first try.  Then doubly amazed when my TDC didn't show up for cylinder number one, but for cylinder no five.

[38Buick 80C]

3 hours ago, DonMicheletti said:

The back of the harmonic balancer on my '38 Special was painted green, suggesting that it was painted before mounting. It was an original engine. I found that very strange, but the back of the water pump was painted too.

Interesting. I thought about it and decided to put it on as I did. Not ever gonna be able to really see the parts that don't get green on them when I spray the motor and easier to spray while on the motor. That said I believe for my 80C I left it off, painted and then installed.

 

 

2 hours ago, kgreen said:

Not saying you did this, but I put my flywheel on thinking it had only one dedicated position.  I miss-placed the TDC timing mark because the flywheel didn't have a fixed position, rotation-wise.   I was amazed that I found the correct flywheel placement on the first try.  Then doubly amazed when my TDC didn't show up for cylinder number one, but for cylinder no five.

Ugh I totally forgot that part, another good karma reason I had to go backwards to go forwards. I should know better because I got it wrong on my 80C too. Gonna go mark it with paint pen right now so I cant forget. Thank you for the reminder.

[EmTee]

11 hours ago, 38Buick 80C said:

Not ever gonna be able to really see the parts that don't get green on them when I spray the motor and easier to spray while on the motor.

I guess there will be overspray on the backside of the damper as you spray the timing cover.  Nobody will be able to see anything in that area once the car is assembled.  My only concern would be covering all of the bare metal on the cover so it doesn't rust.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

33 minutes ago, EmTee said:

  My only concern would be covering all of the bare metal on the cover so it doesn't rust.

Not to worry, oil leaks WILL take care of that.😁😁.

 Sorry, Brian! Just couldn't help myself.

 

  Ben

[DonMicheletti]

When I got my Roadmaster, the front "rope" seal was leaking like a sieve. I converted it to a lip seal...no leaks. Did the same on the Special.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

43 minutes ago, DonMicheletti said:

When I got my Roadmaster, the front "rope" seal was leaking like a sieve. I converted it to a lip seal...no leaks. Did the same on the Special.

 

Admittedly, I have not worked on a 320. Probably no different, though, in the pan, gear cover, front plate area. That is a BUSY place, gasket wise. I find it difficult to impossible to seal completely. Others experience may vary.

 

  Ben

[38Buick 80C]

Painting day today...

 

Prep...

[38Buick 80C]

Sprayed several coats.

 

I'm not thrilled with some of the tin, but I have some plans to correct.

[DonMicheletti]

I'm impressed by your engine stand holding that monstrosity like that.

[Bloo]

That's Bill Hirsch paint isn't it? I have seen this before. You can call them and ask them what to thin it with and they will tell you not to thin it. Then you spray it and it comes out looking exactly like that. I have seen it happen personally once, and others have posted about it in the forums here.

 

The paint is stellar, but try it with a brush. It lays out nice. Or, you could thin it. Ignore this post if it isn't Bill Hirsch paint.

 

Edited September 3, 2022 by Bloo (see edit history)

[38Buick 80C]

It's BH... And it is thinned with Lacquer Thinner...

 

I have a plan 😉

[38Buick 80C]

The block stich is well hidden so that's good.

[38Buick 80C]

Some morning tidbits....

 

I need to do some touch up paint on the intake so bolting it to the exhaust manifold so I could paint the bolts too at the same time.

 

The exhaust ring is repro. Between the center section and the flapper valve section.

 

Bolted together.

 

And the intake bolted on.

 

Stainless steel hardware, like I said will paint the exposed ones.

[38Buick 80C]

Started very minor engine dressing.

 

First up oil line and screen

 

And block drain

 

I bolted up the water pump and t-stats housing simply to paint the stainless steel bolts I will be using

 

And generator bracket

 

Here they are painted

 

Not shown but I cleaned all the manifold stud threads and put the top of the t-stat housing on for bolt painting.

 

Next up was distributor related. With painted arrow gauge thing and gasket in place.

 

And the distributor wasn't painted after the rebuild so painted the and set it slightly in place for temporary safe keeping.

 

You can just barely see the stich, but when the manifold goes on you never will see it.

 

Been working on sourcing some stainless steel fuel and vacuum lines. I found some for a 1949 Roadmaster. I think I'm going to give it a shot. Obviously the fuel pump and carb are different, but I'm hoping they are close enough that with mild adjustment they will work as I really want to avoid making them myself this time.

 

Kind of hit another stopping point until I have the chassis back aside from minor progress.in the mean time I will make my list for Hershey.

 

[EmTee]

Brian, the stitch looks great to me - I wouldn't see it without you pointing it out.  I see you painted the generator bracket green; mine is black.  Should I make mine green?

[38Buick 80C]

Mine was green and obviously never off the motor, so that's what I did. My 80C I did in black and it's an AACA Senior car....so...

 

I was gonna do it black until I found the original green paint.