Frantz Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 I'll admit, even I wasn't super excited to find a Saturn on my list. But I was quickly put in my place overhearing the owner talk about her car. She reminded me of some Pontiac friends who maintain that feel Pontiac went away when they went with a corporate engine block. She expressed passion for her brand and brought a very original car that represented both the marque and the period very well. I was delighted to find out that the car wasn't there as a cheap way to try and get a trophy, but because someone really wanted to preserve a the history of a brand which is now an orphan. It was also nice to see a sporty car rather than a grandma style car show up. Very few cheap fun cars survive as original, so glad to see one make it this far! 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AC Fuhrman Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 (edited) Yes - Class 27S, a red one. They were nice people with a nice car. I suspect Saturns etc will become the new AMC in that you are pleasantly surprised when you seen them at a show or even in traffic still. And lets remember Model Ts and Model As were inexpensive cars too! Edited October 12, 2017 by AC Fuhrman (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnniesSS Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 That car was in great shape and I agree that it's odd seeing it on the show field - like seeing my Burb - but it's great that she has kept it in such nice condition!! Kudos to her for her hard work and efforts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff_a Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 Well, if it´s 25 years old & in stock form it fits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capngrog Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 I always liked the Saturn and almost bought a new one "back in the day". As to another GMC orphan, what ever happened to the Chevette? I drove one of those things for several years as a company car and liked it. Am I weird, or was the Chevette not too bad of an automobile? I haven't seen a Chevette on the road for a decade or more. Does anyone out there have one? Cheers, Grog P.S. My apologies to Frantz. I'm not trying to hijack your thread, I was just wondering about another unjustly (in my opinion) maligned GM product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Coyote Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 (edited) Here would be a nice one that falls along the same lines. And its for sale too. https://tucson.craigslist.org/cto/d/1989-mercury-grand-marquis/6333449232.html And one for Grog. https://tucson.craigslist.org/cto/d/1980-chevy-chevette/6323840332.html Edited October 14, 2017 by Laughing Coyote (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghostymosty Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 The Saturn SC is a nice looking car. The Chevette was a mess. My dad rented one to try it out when looking for a new car back in 77 and said it was the most uncomfortable car he had ever driven, cramped beyond belief for the driver's legs/feet and he was only 5'8" tall. Nothing about the Chevette impressed him, not even the fuel mileage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Schramm Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 The Chevette is not an orphan as it was a model under the Chevrolet Brand. My wife and I owned a Chevette in the day. Our experience was that it was not a bad car for the money. I believe that it was a design imported from Opel in Germany, the GM European brand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 Scrapped the one we had, still have an owners manual if someone can cover the postage. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SaddleRider Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 I don't see what the fuss is about. Current practice is to say all cars are "antique-classics"....well...you aren't supposed to actually SAY that until the vehicle is 20 years old. Only a couple of more years... by that logic....and my 2001 Toyota RAV 4 will be a "classic-antique"....! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frantz Posted October 16, 2017 Author Share Posted October 16, 2017 It's harder to have a high point Saturn SC than it is a 400 point Model T. No one is making restoration parts for such most cars after the muscle car era, so keeping them in the points classes rather than DPC or HPOF is actually a bit of a challenge for their owners. If someone wants to celebrate the brand they're passionate about by preserving it the way the factory did it, I think that's pretty much the point of the club. It's not her fault that her antique is only a few years older than your daily driver. Perhaps you need a new car? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank DuVal Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 On 10/13/2017 at 11:26 PM, capngrog said: I haven't seen a Chevette on the road for a decade or more. Does anyone out there have one? I have Dad's '79 Scooter in the garage. Making body panels in my spare time, so it will be a few years before it is back on the road. I kept it because I didn't see any others around here. The Model T of the 70s! GM threw in a radio when he ordered it. That was the only accessory on it! Most all of my daily drivers are approaching 25 years old. Of course, I always DID like to drive antique cars! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SaddleRider Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 14 hours ago, Frantz said: ...... If someone wants to celebrate the brand they're passionate about by preserving it the way the factory did it, I think that's pretty much the point of the club. ... I couldn't agree more - Frantz is an outstanding example of the thinking of most people in most car clubs have these days. What is important is to feel good; who cares about history and technology and how it evolved...... Didn't we ship all that annoyance over to China ? More and more modern school systems are doing away with "letter grades"......makes the kids feel better about themselves. I distinctly recall the fuss ( was it 30 years ago ? ) when someone who had a 1941 Cadillac Series 60S wanted it called a "classic". There were still folks who remembered the concept of "precision of speech"...noted that the term "classic school of design" meant "form follows function"....like, for example, going back ten years to a 1931 Cadillac Imperial...with its separate parts seperated by their function......headlight shells, radiator...hood, fenders...each as a design element, standing apart by their function. A 1941 Cadillac, by comparison, was from a different planet from a technology standpoint... "art deco" style streamlining....automatic transmission ( four speeds !) with a "high" (numerically lower) rear axle gearing....3.36 compared to the V-16's 4.6 rear end ratio) modern pressurized cooling system, hydraulic brakes, automatic interior temperature control including "factory" air conditioning, all steel body...independent front suspension..... Who can deny which one they;'d rather drive across the desert in the summer....say "taking on" the infamous "Needles To Kingman" grade at 80 mph.....! So...folks now call the 1941 Cadillacs "antique classics". Who cares what a REAL antique car is...with its carbide gas headlights, "T" head motors, "external contracting" brakes only on rear wheels, magneto ignitions....? The important thing, as Frantz correctly points out, is the "modern" way of thinking....as he notes..."feel passionate" about their modern car. Well...I feel passionate about my 2001 Toyota Rav 4....in fact...I feel so passionate about it...I am in the process of buying a brand new one......dammit...I guess I will have to wait the 20 full years before I can call that one a "classic antique..."....but what the heck..the rate we are going..maybe we can eliminate that silly requirement.....! Maybe I better not trade in the 2001....after all...it will "blow the doors" off a Duesenburg in a drag race...air conditioning works great...and besides...wont it be an "antique-classic" in only four more years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frantz Posted October 16, 2017 Author Share Posted October 16, 2017 The Model A is a pretty modern car. I do get that. But to suggest if I'm not pouring gas in a priming cup and cranking a motor by hand that I've missed out on all of history I think is fairly naive. What makes an "antique" car more interesting than a horse drawn buggy? Is not the passion of the machine the real reason anyone does care about a proper pure machine? Passion is the only reason the car hobby exists the way it does. It has nothing to do with my "modern" thinking at all. I think my 1917 industrial sewing machine is pretty awesome, but no one asks to see it in use. I'm very very passionate about the history of autos, in fact, it's my favorite part of the experience is understanding how the machines fall into place with the companies, the men, that created them. What has seen more history though, a car that sat in a barn for 80 years, or a worn out coin? Coin collecting isn't exactly bringing in the crowds. So we must realize that there is something more than the history of an object that brings interest. It's not the complexity, it's not the age or importance, it's not the value, it's really the passion we feel with a machine. The passion with an early motorized buggy isn't different than the one someone feels for a 25 year old car. There are actually pretty big differences between a 1992 Saturn and a car today. More differences than between a 1908 Model T and a 1927.. granted, that's only 19 years difference. Just because computers don't stir the passion for you, doesn't mean their evolution in the automobile over the years isn't just as drastic as technological innovations of the classic era. The ONLY difference is the level of passion someone feels. I don't think it's right to judge someone elses passion when it's certainly not hurting yours. Saturn as a brand was an important step in corporate history, and many would argue that failing to follow through on it's promise is a major misstep for GM. Passion is really the only thing that propels the hobby. Be it passion for the history, the machine, the feeling. I don't see how you can argue your passion for a "true classic" is more valid than someones passion for a modern one. How is your history, machine, or feelings more valid? Accepting a 25 year old Saturn who's owner is passionate about the brands history is no different that someone who saves a soul survivor of a forgotten pre war make and champions how great their brand could have been if only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 The "Passion" deal mentioned above is a valid point, and I have it for the era cars I truly love. I did buy a brand new 1976 Ford pickup to tow my cars to AACA events, but wouldn't give any thought to finding another and restoring it to place on the show field today. I do resent being "forced" to enjoy vehicles I walk by to look at the ones I truly have a "passion" for. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 I was one of those geek kids in school that aspired to be an English teacher when I grew up, but spent time with the hoodlums fixing cars and hanging around junk yards. Effortlessly getting decent grades did give me a chance to get a pretty good vocabulary. I have known the definition of dogma for a long time and generally been quite entertained as it darts in and out of many facets of the car hobby. In fact, I have been quite entertained by the habits of society for a long time. My Wife says people weren't put on this Earth for my entertainment. But she can't tell me why they don't stop doing the stuff that makes me laugh. Dogma, think it applies? You betcha. Bernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frantz Posted October 17, 2017 Author Share Posted October 17, 2017 Sorry, I feel "triggered" about all this. In 1992 you could still get a carburetor (Wagoneer with leftover AMC 360 motor, last passenger carb in the US I think this year). The Mustang was still all pushrod V8. Olds, Pontiac, Mercury, Saturn, Eagle, Daewoo, Suzuki, and I'm sure others were all still brands in the US. You didn't have 4 wheel stability control, which literally can keep a car from rolling over. Sorta like the difference from 2 wheel mechanical to 4 wheel hydraulic. Entry brand cars can park themselves, have blind spot warnings, adaptive cruise control, emergency stop assist, rain sensing wipers, bluetooth, wifi connection, mobile aps that link to the car. Today it's common to find turbocharged motors (obviously not new, but it's new to be mainstream), direct injection is common, auto start stop, 8-10 speed transmissions, 4 cylinders making 300hp. The emissions and other safety changes (especially for diesels) has been huge too. We didn't have Hybrids and the EV1 wasn't tested on the streets yet either. How about the changes in how cars are designed, both from marketing and the actual engineering tools? Seriously there have been major historic evolution of technology since 1992. It might not seem like a big deal to you. If you compare a 2001 CRV to a brand new one you might have "passion" but you won't actually recognize the vehicle as being the same. So would it really be a horrible idea for someone to maintain and keep track of the evolution and history of the past 25 years? I think a historic look at any 25 year period is interesting, but in many ways there have been more changes in the past 25 years than any other period in auto technology. These might not all be changes you find worthy of passion, but I don't think it's right to tell someone else that they are wasting their time or money. I think is silly to say it's not part of history. I was 9 years old in 1992, so these are the cars I grew up with (along with the leftover '80s cars I personally spent more time with). Is someone who likes these vehicles is told it's dumb to try and keep them original, how are they going to feel about your original POS from the 1920s? It would be far better as a hotrod by your own thinking if you applied your ideas to another persons perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SaddleRider Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 11 minutes ago, Frantz said: ............. So would it really be a horrible idea for someone to maintain and keep track of the evolution and history of the past 25 years? I think a historic look at any 25 year period is interesting, but in many ways there have been more changes in the past 25 years than any other period in auto technology. These might not all be changes you find worthy of passion, but I don't think it's right to tell someone else that they are wasting their time or money. I think is silly to say it's not part of history. I was 9 years old in 1992, so these are the cars I grew up with (along with the leftover '80s cars I personally spent more time with). Is someone who likes these vehicles is told it's dumb to try and keep them original, how are they going to feel about your original POS from the 1920s? It would be far better as a hotrod by your own thinking if you applied your ideas to another persons perspective. Outstanding argument - I agree! Just came back from the Toyota dealer - traded in the 2001 Rav 4 for a used-but-mint 2015. Now I am REALLY passionate.........much faster accelerating...and the air conditioner is even more powerful ! And the stero is even sharper, better. You havnt answered my question... it will be a "antique classic' in 2035...what will be different about it then...than now ( I keep my cars "mint" or near so ( lots of mud and gravel on our roads ). So isn't it unfair not to go to car club meets with it now...? Why should I be discriminated against ? Is my '15 Toyota Rav 4 any less a "classic-antique" now than it will be in 2035 ? I agree with you completely - just because some old car clubs are called the CLASSIC CAR CLUB OF AMERICA and the ANTIQUE CAR CLUB OF AMERICA, is no reason to be stuck with celebrating the history of the cars those clubs originally were concerned with. Let's be honest and admit folks LIKE to call whatever they have and/or are trying to sell "CLASSIC" or "antique" or both! So I agree - let's "get with the times"..... (pardon me..got to get back to my lunch of CLASSIC chicken, with some yummy CLASSIC potato chips ( ah....nice cold CLASSIC macaroni salad....) washed down with some CLASSIC coke......) ( you should see the nice pairs of 'CLASSIC SHOE LACES they had for sale and I bought over in the misc. goods section of my local supermarket...!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frantz Posted October 17, 2017 Author Share Posted October 17, 2017 Quote You havnt answered my question... it will be a "antique classic' in 2035...what will be different about it then...than now ( I keep my cars "mint" or near so ( lots of mud and gravel on our roads ). So isn't it unfair not to go to car club meets with it now...? Why should I be discriminated against ? Is my '15 Toyota Rav 4 any less a "classic-antique" now than it will be in 2035 ? Most regional meets would probably let you go. Heck, I drive my '15 Fiesta in runs simply because my car is a project and I can't always borrow my brothers "antique" '77 Grenada. Is 25 years fairly arbitrary? Sure. Are there alot more 15 year old cars in great shape than 25 year old cars? Yep! The avg age of a US car is 11 years now I think.. so 15 years is pretty close to avg age. 25 years is still rare. Emissions requirement probably make this more true than would be the case under mechanical ability alone. Most cars get scrapped for stupid reasons that cost more than their market value. The utility value would make it worth fixing, but here in America, we don't don't believe in such things. I've honestly yet to meet too many people who are "waiting to qualify" for AACA. I know it happens, but most of it is folks like yourself who happen to have a car that happens to get old. Three of the five judges I was with drove cars older than what we were judging at Hershey, and with no intent to call them antiques. At the same time, I bet they wouldn't score as high as most of what gets to the show field. Your passion should hold you over another 9 years right? I have toyed with the idea of buying a car to keep it 25 years... something cheap like my '15 Fiesta. Just no modern cars are interesting to me like that. But I wouldn't discourage someone else for doing it. After all, that's why getting a mint 1978 Corvette is so easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8E45E Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 10 hours ago, SaddleRider said: Outstanding argument - I agree! Just came back from the Toyota dealer - traded in the 2001 Rav 4 for a used-but-mint 2015. Now I am REALLY passionate.........much faster accelerating...and the air conditioner is even more powerful ! And the stero is even sharper, better. You havnt answered my question... it will be a "antique classic' in 2035...what will be different about it then...than now ( I keep my cars "mint" or near so ( lots of mud and gravel on our roads ). So isn't it unfair not to go to car club meets with it now...? Why should I be discriminated against ? Is my '15 Toyota Rav 4 any less a "classic-antique" now than it will be in 2035 ? I agree with you completely - just because some old car clubs are called the CLASSIC CAR CLUB OF AMERICA and the ANTIQUE CAR CLUB OF AMERICA, is no reason to be stuck with celebrating the history of the cars those clubs originally were concerned with. Let's be honest and admit folks LIKE to call whatever they have and/or are trying to sell "CLASSIC" or "antique" or both! So I agree - let's "get with the times"..... That argument could have been easily settled if you bought a Scion Xb in place of the RAV-4. The Scion brand name is now an 'orphan', the Xb is just as practical, and will be more collectible than a RAV-4. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8E45E Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 (edited) 18 hours ago, Frantz said: There are actually pretty big differences between a 1992 Saturn and a car today. More differences than between a 1908 Model T and a 1927.. granted, that's only 19 years difference. Just because computers don't stir the passion for you, doesn't mean their evolution in the automobile over the years isn't just as drastic as technological innovations of the classic era. The ONLY difference is the level of passion someone feels. I don't think it's right to judge someone elses passion when it's certainly not hurting yours. Saturn as a brand was an important step in corporate history, and many would argue that failing to follow through on it's promise is a major misstep for GM. The only flaw in that statement is no one has mentioned the Saturn Sky which came out in 2006 and lasted right until the end of the brand name. It is likely the most collectible of any car made under the Saturn label, and some (along with its Pontiac Solstice stablemate) are already appearing at car shows. And being at the END of the production run of the marque can have just as much cachet as a first-year car does. Craig Edited October 17, 2017 by 8E45E (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SaddleRider Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 2 hours ago, 8E45E said: That argument could have been easily settled if you bought a Scion Xb in place of the RAV-4. The Scion brand name is now an 'orphan', the Xb is just as practical, and will be more collectible than a RAV-4. Craig Yes - I agree with Craig's theory....supports my argument that more and more people think like him...."we should get with the times" and forget about why the car clubs discussed in earlier posts were formed. The qualification now is simple...if you like your car...be passionate about it...call it a "collectable antique classic". Who cares about precision of speech.....isn't that for those countries that took over our industrial base? Hmmm...what's for lunch today? .....well...whatever it is...I want a side-order of CLASSIC MACARONI SALAD..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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