Beemon Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 So before I tore my engine apart, the charging system stopped working and I ended up putting an alternator on there. Since I've had the engine apart I checked the voltage regulator and the contact Points seem fine, they all move freely. So the next step was to tear into the generator and I found this. One of the copper strands off of the windings is missing and the other ones are damaged. Likewise the field coil insulation has also been ripped open but they seem to be intact. The bearing has a lot of play in it and the end shaft is pretty scarred up but the bushing looks fine. I'm not sure what they did when they rebuilt it but it doesn't look like a whole lot. So now I think I'm looking for a core and I know where a 55 generator is. Will that work? If the Armature and field coils are still intact it should work just like my starter rebuild. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted June 21, 2017 Author Share Posted June 21, 2017 There's a 56 Chevy generator near me for sale for $20. What are the differences between part numbers? Just application? Would internals be the same if they were 30 amp? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 (edited) A rebuild usually means bearings, brushes, and turn the commutator on a lathe. I'm not seeing the damage from that pic. What am I missing? Edit: I see it now. Is the Buick 12v negative ground? The 56 Chevy was. Chances are good the Chevy one could be made to work if it will bolt on and both are 12v negative ground. Does your Buick have autostart? How many terminals on the voltage regulator? Edited June 21, 2017 by Bloo oops (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted June 21, 2017 Author Share Posted June 21, 2017 12V negative. On the voltage regulator, there is a Battery, Field and Armature terminal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Phillips Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 All US-built GM cars in 1956 are 12 volts, negative ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 Looks to me one winding separated from the commutator and that damaged the field insulation before breaking away. Twer it me, and having way too much free time, I would try to save it if the field coils showed continuity and were not grounded. All this is maybe doable, can't tell from the pix. Splice a piece of 14 GA wire from the broken end to the commutator. Fix/splice any other damaged wires. Put it back together and see if it charges. If so wrap the wires behind the commutaor with string and super glue them to stabilize the repair. Turn the commutator. New brushes and bearing/bushings. Maybe wishful thinking on my part but I would try. If it all worked I'd paint it up and buy myself a cigar and a nice cold Yuengling Lager................Bob 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted June 21, 2017 Author Share Posted June 21, 2017 I can't see the end of the broken piece under the armature to complete the winding, would I just solder in anywhere? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 (edited) Ya, I would also try to repair if it were me. You just gotta solder to the end of the one broken wire. You will have to scrape the insulation on the end of that one broken wire. You just want to extend it, and not make electrical connection with anything else (well except the commutator at the other end of the wire). Basically what bhigdog said. You definitely don't want anything bare touching the shaft or laminations (ground). Edited June 21, 2017 by Bloo more (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 51 minutes ago, Beemon said: I can't see the end of the broken piece under the armature to complete the winding, would I just solder in anywhere? You can see (I can) the trace of the missing wire from the commutator bar to the slot in question. During manufacture and after the wires are placed in the slots a fibre strip is wedged in the slot and the entire armature is dipped in shellac to lock everything in place. You need to carefully dig out enough of the fibre strip to expose the broken wire end. It should be very near the end of the slot. That done, I'm assuming you are familiar enough to solder and insulate the splice wire in place and solder it to the commutator bar. The splice wire can be bare copper but be sure it does not touch the steel armature laminations at any point and do use string/super glue/epoxy to lock everything in place after the repair............Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted June 21, 2017 Author Share Posted June 21, 2017 Here's some better pics. I know where it goes into the commutator, but it broke off pretty deep in the armature. I don't think I can solder this one. Also I found out what did it in. It wobbled just enough to hit the brush holder. There's shavings all around the edge of the brush holder on the inside. The stator windings, while exposed, look OK. Also here's a pic of the end... how do you pull a bushing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted June 21, 2017 Author Share Posted June 21, 2017 (edited) For $20, that 56 Chevy generator is looking pretty good. Second Chance Garage .com has specs for the different generators, and both are 30 amp with 1.48-1.62 current at the field and same brush tension of 28 oz. The 35 amp generator for Chevy either had the power steering pump or an AC pulley on it or both for 1956 according to some Chevy forum... Also doesn't look like a small base generator, looks to be the right size. Edited June 21, 2017 by Beemon (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 Generators don't like overspeed. They often wind up looking like yours. If the pulley size is way different, you should put the Buick one on. Other than that, if it will mount up, go for it. That armature looks pretty bad. The other parts of yours are probably usable but.. $20? If you can make it work, do it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 Is it really just a bushing at the back? No bearing? One way to get a bushing out of a blind hole is to put a bunch of grease in the hole, put a bolt (or rod or something) that fits almost tight in the hole in the bushing, and hit it with a hammer. This works on pilot bushings for clutches, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted June 21, 2017 Author Share Posted June 21, 2017 I hooked a battery up to the generator - the field coils still produce a magnetic field, it was almost unturnable by hand going one way. When hooked up to the armature terminal, it didn't motor by itself without a little assistance, then arced when it reached the broken wire strand on both sides. So it looks like if I can get the wire back in, I can get it charging again. As far as bushings go, I'm not sure exactly where to hammer... there isn't a hole on the back side, it would have to be pulled out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 Thats the whole (hole?) idea. It has to be a blind hole. The grease pushes it out hydraulically. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted June 21, 2017 Author Share Posted June 21, 2017 Oh I understand now! Sorry, some of this stuff is still new to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted June 21, 2017 Author Share Posted June 21, 2017 (edited) I got some insulation out, and fished out the broken strand. It's open enough to solder, anyways. I'll give it a shot with some 14 gauge stranded wire and go from there. The generator has been up for 8 months so I think it'll wait until Friday. Edited June 21, 2017 by Beemon (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 3 hours ago, Beemon said: I'll give it a shot with some 14 gauge stranded wire and go from there. I'm thinking solid wire would be better for this application. Scrounge up a piece of 14 ga house romex wire and use the ground or strip the plastic off of the hot or neutral..................Bob 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 A less messy way to remove the bushing: use a tap and use it to cut threads in the bushing; when it bottoms out the bushing comes out! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1956322 Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 I'm sure people will disagree with me but honestly if you're going to be using this as a Dailey driver I'd leave the alternator.. It's better in every way then the gen and parts are getting harder to find and aren't that great of quality when you do find them plus you already have the alternator set up going Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 34 minutes ago, 1956322 said: I'm sure people will disagree with me but honestly if you're going to be using this as a Dailey driver I'd leave the alternator.. It's better in every way then the gen and parts are getting harder to find and aren't that great of quality when you do find them plus you already have the alternator set up going True, but not nearly as interesting...............Bob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 8 minutes ago, Bhigdog said: True, but not nearly as interesting...............Bob ...and it's ugly! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1956322 Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 I do agree with both.. Not as interesting and ugly in a 50s era engine bay.. That's why I went with the powergen.. But that's probably a bit pricey for him right now;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 Just carry a working spare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1956322 Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 My problem wasn't with the generator but rather with modern voltage regulators not lasting.. Got old real fast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosage Chavis Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 Following... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 I have daily driven cars with generators. Assuming it isn't some third brush crap (and this isn't) it doesn't even really require much special consideration. They don't charge at idle. You have to remember to shut off the lights and radio if you want to leave the car idling a long time. I have never understood why people want to put on 10si/12si Delco alternators to "improve reliability". Those were sloppily made in the first place, and reasonably reliable, but not terrific. I guess because you can hook them up with one wire. I have heard of issues with those new production regulators. Is it really that hard to find a usable regulator these days? Personally I would run if I saw the cover riveted on. Generally speaking, the shop manual for almost any car will tell you how to set up all the air gaps and regulated voltage and current. Usually that only needs to be done if somebody has been poking around in the regulator making random adjustments. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1956322 Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 Well all I can say is the new Borg Warner ones are no good and non adjustable they usually lasted two weeks till all of a sudden no charge.. Bypass reg and ten was charging... Yes I was polarizing them.. Heck one was dead out of the box.. Once I found a good one it would last two years.. Just got old Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted June 21, 2017 Author Share Posted June 21, 2017 The first one I bought had rivets. The expensive one I bought from NAPA Echlin brand had screws and was built heavy duty. I like to think the alternator is the spare to the generator. Not difficult to set up, but just ugly.... much prefer the generator. Plus, I won't potentially burn up my wiring harness since you can't find a 30 amp alternator that's internally regulated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NC-car-guy Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 (edited) I've had plenty of old vehicles that retained the original generator and voltage reg and done fine as long as you don't need lots of extra accessories. Honestly I'm so OCD about retaining oddball things like the gas pedal starter and it's intended safety circuit, I will stick with my generator. Maybe it's easier for me to say that since I have several of them. Now that I think about it, the only time my 55 left me on the side of the road was points (which I simply swapped with those in the glove box) and when the gas gauge stopped. Edited June 21, 2017 by wndsofchng06 (see edit history) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 1 hour ago, 1956322 said: Well all I can say is the new Borg Warner ones are no good and non adjustable they usually lasted two weeks till all of a sudden no charge.. Bypass reg and ten was charging... Yes I was polarizing them.. Heck one was dead out of the box.. Once I found a good one it would last two years.. Just got old I would have got real sick of that too. I bought Borg Warner ignition points recently, the 2 piece style. They were unbelievably cheaply made, and fit extremely loose around the pivot in the distributor. The distributor machine showed the timing jumping around about 10 degrees at random because of that loose pivot. Some off-brand NORS points.from ebay fixed it. Good parts are getting hard to find. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete O Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 A few of the wires on my armature let go. I saw a part number stamped on the armature. Typed it into ebay, found a NOS replacement still in the box. Less than $50.00 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ttotired Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 Genny bits are getting really hard to find, but heres an alternative that some of you may not know about, they have been around for a while now and are about 1/2 the price they started out at. ://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/pwm-82051/overview/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEarl Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 1 hour ago, Ttotired said: Genny bits are getting really hard to find, but heres an alternative that some of you may not know about, they have been around for a while now and are about 1/2 the price they started out at. ://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/pwm-82051/overview/ Mick, the link you posted redirected to a "Suspicious activity" site so I deleted the htpps from the link to make it nonfunctional. Can you please check it out and repost if found safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted June 22, 2017 Author Share Posted June 22, 2017 (edited) 12 hours ago, Bloo said: I would have got real sick of that too. I bought Borg Warner ignition points recently, the 2 piece style. They were unbelievably cheaply made, and fit extremely loose around the pivot in the distributor. The distributor machine showed the timing jumping around about 10 degrees at random because of that loose pivot. Some off-brand NORS points.from ebay fixed it. Good parts are getting hard to find. When I was restoring my 65 Riv distributor I picked up, the guy asked me if I wanted the "Mileage Plus" unipoints set, which looked like the top photo. Out of the box, the points were not aligned and they were cocked. I said no thanks and got the Echlin points, which is the second photo. They were set properly dead on, and flat. They usually call them "Heavy Duty" points, probably because it's not made from plastic and thin copper. Anyways, I'm pretty strapped for cash right now, but on Friday, I'll go to the local electronics outlet and get me some 14 gauge solid core copper wire and see if I can't fix the winding. This is of course after I do my oil change, fill up on gas, drive to Burien and pick up that 56 Chev generator. Edited June 22, 2017 by Beemon (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ttotired Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 21 hours ago, MrEarl said: Mick, the link you posted redirected to a "Suspicious activity" site so I deleted the htpps from the link to make it nonfunctional. Can you please check it out and repost if found safe. The link I posted is summit racing, only suspicious thing there is the make you spend to much because they have everything I checked the link, its fine https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/pwm-82051/overview/ With the htts removed, when I clicked the link, then it became suspicious, it came up with something called viglink, some other shopping site? http://www.viglink.com/shop/merchants Thanks for keeping an eye on things Mr Earl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NC-car-guy Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 Im getting the vigi link think on all of them..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1956322 Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 Looks like he's trying to link to the power master powergen I'm running Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEarl Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 me too Matt first this followed by this when clicking the "continue to" link bar No biggy Mick, I just despise pop ups and such things, especially when they don't get you anything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted June 23, 2017 Author Share Posted June 23, 2017 I have toyed the idea of a Powergen. There was a thread here a while ago about trying to tie in the foot pedal switch. I think it was after that thread they came out with the lamp terminal that puts out 6V when charging, the right amount for the safety feature on the start relay. But, I like to have everything work in harmony. I would either get rid of both the generator and voltage regulator or keep them and I'd much rather keep it simple. To each their own, but I'm running stock radio, stock speakers, heater and that's it. No HID bulbs, AC (yet), power accessories (yet), high output amps, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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