Pros and Cons to replacing a 56 Dynaflow with a 56 Syncromesh

[Beemon]

Thinking about this a lot, and wondering if it will really be worth it to do a conversion like this. My research says it must be single exhaust, manual brakes but power steering is ok, driveshaft is the same. The clutch linkage bolts to the block and interferes with the driver side exhaust if running dual exhaust, and a power master cylinder will not fit with the clutch linkage either. What type of benefits or gains would one make over a Dynaflow (except fun to drive, no slobbering Dynaflow...) if they did this conversion? I've read somewhere that crankshafts are different between manual and automatic. Is it okay to use a Dynaflow crankshaft with a Syncromesh or is it the other way around? Also availability of pilot bushings and clutch plates?

 

If I were serious about this, I would try to keep the power brakes and use some type of hydraulic clutch to minimize space and keep the dual exhaust, keep the stock automatic steering column and install a floor shifter. Then it gets into the price range of "do you have enough money?"

 

Also happy Easter, everyone!

Edited April 16, 2017 by Beemon (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

Depends a lot on how you are spending your time between zero and 40 MPH now. I kind of like just sitting there steering a bit and giving the pedal a little nudge.

 

WWAS (What Would Albert Say)

Bernie

[old-tank]

Fun factor for sure until you get stuck in traffic, then it is a PIA.  Best to get a second 'toy' with the standard tranny.  Unless you mate the standard to the matching 3.9 gears you will be doing even more shifting.  On the other hand 3.9 gears will wake up the dynaflow...the 56 dynaflow is a great transmission with switch pitch even in low.

[F&J]

1 hour ago, Beemon said:

If I were serious about this, I would try to keep the power brakes and use some type of hydraulic clutch to minimize space and keep the dual exhaust, keep the stock automatic steering column and install a floor shifter. Then it gets into the price range of "do you have enough money?"

 

 

I do quite a bit with the GM "selector" 3 speed transmissions.  Mine are Olds, but the transmission is virtually the same except for open-vs-closed driveshafts.

 

Floor shifters:  There were a few different companies that once made aftermarket floor shifters for the two types of selectors.  The Buick versions also differ between the biggest trans with 6 top cover bolts, compared to the smaller 5 bolt trans.   None of these shifters are cheap if you can find one for sale. 

 

Some of these less complicated selector shifters had a backwards shift pattern, but the few complicated ones like Ansen-brand with more linkages, had a conventional shift pattern.  You cannot just go out and buy a "normal" 3 speed floor shifter for a Chevy or Ford with the two side levers, as it just will not work, even with modifications.

 

I have made many slave cylinder brackets that work fine with the GM style/length of the clutch throwout arm lever.  Fairly simple to do, and I use 60-62 Chevy pickup slave cylinder which is still available new.

 

I'm running a 6 bolt selector in a lighter car, and it has 3.23 geared rear axle which is not a problem in traffic.  My 324 Olds engine has a lot of low-end torque, so I don't need to shift to first gear while barely moving.

 

.

[F&J]

1 hour ago, Beemon said:

If I were serious about this,

 

If you think you will keep that car forever, and really want a standard trans...  I'd go the extra work to use a 5 speed overdrive like the S-10 T5. You will have a great car for around town and cross country high speeds...

 

It means modifying the rear end with a later Buick center, but I don't recall if that will fit a 56 housing.  There is a lot of info on HAMB about this common swap.  Then you won't need to look for rare parts like the syncromesh selector trans or rare shifter.  There should be a repro transmission adapter available from one of the two major adapter companies.

 

I don't know about Buick A/T crankshafts:  The same year Olds had 3 transmissions available then, and two crankshafts.  The Olds selector and the Hydramatic 4 speed A/T used a crankshaft that has a pilot bushing hole in the end.  The new-for-56-Olds Super 88/98-only, came with the Jetaway A/T that did not have the crankshaft pilot hole that is needed for a standard shift swap.

 

Go to HAMB if serious on using any type of standard in your 56 Buick A/T car; they will know

 

.

[60FlatTop]

Here is a picture of me with a 3500-4,000 pound standard shift car. Experience is a great teacher.

 

It was a 4 speed 390. I never used low. It was kind of like rowing a boat pulling the handle back and forth. At the time my friend, Darryl, had also had a manual performance type car. I used to picture him waving his ten gallon hat out the window and hollaring "Yahoo, I paid for it, I'm doing it." Maybe that was a quote. While I just found it tedious.

 

In the 1980's I had a black 1978 Nova 4 speed, 305, 4 brl. That car was fun but more balanced weight to power and the Saginaw gears were set up nicely. And a VW Rabbit I bought for a winter car was a matched unit. I just remembered a Celica GT that was fun. My Packard is a low end lugger, I take off in second most of the time.

Probably an age thing, well, maybe not for Darryl.

 

And don't yell Yahoo,  It's either Ya or Hoo, both together confuse the oxen.

Bernie

[NTX5467]

When I ordered my '77 Camaro, I toyed with the thought of ordering a 4-speed manual instead of the THM350.  I knew I could change atf and filter myself, but no desire to do a clutch replacement. It would take gallons of atf to equal ONE clutch change.  I knew that getting things lined-up for the clutch items could be tedious, too.  You might claim I wussed-out, but it's more fun for me to "nail it" to get around a slower car than to do the calculations of "starting speed/appropriate gear/need to upshift" as I wait for "the moment" behind the slower car with the car revving and ready to pass.  Too much drama!

 

To be sure, a manual transmission does change the character of a vehicle!  It would be neat to have a manual trans "luxury" car, but better to have one with an automatic that better-fits the "luxury" persona, to me.

 

IF you're considering a trans change, why not update to a '65 Wildcat 401THM400 application transmission?  Maybe even keep the switch-pitch active?  That lower "low gear" will increase off-line responsiveness quite a bit, plus the slightly-higher 2nd gear will make "passing gear" go to higher speeds.

 

The THM200-4R conversion is popular with the Riviera enthusiasts.  Takes less power to run than the THM400, but the use of OD might be restricted in your locale with your current rear axle ratio.  Several major trans vendors can upgrade them to handle big block Chevies, in the OD version, but not sure about the similar THM200 (as used in the GN Turbo cars.  The issue with the THM200-family trans is that all of those applications were "open driveshaft".

 

Now, if you really wanted to be "trick", you could find a '58 Triple Turbine DynaFlow and swap that in.  Might be easier and also provide additional off-line torque multiplication.  Not sure of any changes to adapt for between '56 and '58, though.

 

You don't have some "ulterior motives" for the desire for a floor-mounted shifter do you?

 

NTX5467

Edited April 16, 2017 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[Beemon]

The whole point of using the 3 speed Synchromesh would be to not hassle with a rear end swap and dig a bigger pocket book well. I'm not too worried about floor shift kits because I figure I would just make my own out of a shift lever kit. I'm also hoping the source also has the 3.91 gears.

 

I also toyed with the idea of getting a car with a manual transmission, but I'd never be able to afford one on my wages.

[60FlatTop]

Who needs a stinkin' shift kit?

[F&J]

23 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said:

Who needs a stinkin' shift kit?

 

Is that a 36-38 Roadmaster trans?

 

If so, that is what I run in my Ford, with the 55 Olds motor.   I swapped my 37 Buick trans from closed drive to open drive by using all the gears, shafts and tail from a 51-56 Olds selector trans.  That was once a common thing to do.

 

They even used that Buick topshift with the open drive swap on drag raced brand new 55 to 57 Chevys before Chevy came out with the 4 speed.  The chevy 3 speed was not nearly as strong as the Buick with the Olds guts.

[NTX5467]

How about . . . rather than determining what might be lost with a manual trans swap from a DynaFlow, to something more like . . . how different the rear frame configuration is on a coil spring closed driveshaft Buick to that of an open driveshaft leaf spring '56 Olds, which might benefit many in the hobby as they might desire a later model 3+speed automatic OR slave cylinder-controlled manual transmission?  Or a later model GM "trailing arm" coil spring rear suspension so ride quality might not be significantly impacted?

 

Using the "shift tower" transmission is interesting, but finding a good one (not from a truck) at this point in time, might be less than easy.

 

NTX5467

[Guest]

Ive been called easy before, I can live with that!

[F&J]

2 hours ago, 2carb40 said:

Ive been called easy before, I can live with that!

 

Yes, there is the once-popular 36-38 Roadmaster closed drive transmission, as well as the open drive 51-up Olds Selector.  I have done a few of those conversions to use with Olds and Cadillac engines in old time style hotrods.  I really like these compared the 37 LaSalle transmissions, which I find harder to work on, and it's very hard to find good Cad/LaS syncros and 1st/rev sliding gear, which are often worn out.

 

I never did find out if the 36-38 Roadmaster trans with the stock closed drive tailhousing, would be the correct length to use in later Buick closed drive cars?

 

I really like the way they feel when shifting.

 

.

[pont35cpe]

The dyna-flo crankshaft would have to be replaced with the manual trans. crankshaft, or the flywheel end of the dyna-flo crankshaft would have to be machined for a pilot bearing.. That`s the way it is for the inline eights, could be different for the V8s, they may already be machined for a pilot bearing..

[Beemon]

3 minutes ago, pont35cpe said:

The dyna-flo crankshaft would have to be replaced with the manual trans. crankshaft, or the flywheel end of the dyna-flo crankshaft would have to be machined for a pilot bearing.. That`s the way it is for the inline eights, could be different for the V8s, they may already be machined for a pilot bearing..

 

Thanks for this. I couldn't remember if it was one way or another. Since I don't feel like doing a complete engine tear down, looks like I'll have to bag this. A gentleman up in Canada is selling a 56 Nailhead for $500 and I've been considering starting new, rebuilding it myself, but it's coming up with the cash that's the hard part.

[pont35cpe]

6 minutes ago, Beemon said:

 

Thanks for this. I couldn't remember if it was one way or another. Since I don't feel like doing a complete engine tear down, looks like I'll have to bag this. A gentleman up in Canada is selling a 56 Nailhead for $500 and I've been considering starting new, rebuilding it myself, but it's coming up with the cash that's the hard part.

Maybe someone more familiar with the Buick V8s will comment about this..

[F&J]

One thing worth mentioning to those who might rework those 36-38 Roadmaster transmissions for a modified car:

 

The Selectors came in Buick, Olds, for a long time, and Pontiac only used them for just 2-3 years around 56 or so. 

 

If using the 36-38 trans on GM early OHV V8s:   Buick engines must use the shorter "Buick-only" input shaft.   Olds, Cad and Pontiac V8's use/need the longer input shaft, which came in Olds/Pontiac selectors.

 

The cool thing about modding these old top shifter transmissions, is that you can come up with a version to fit whatever brand of V8 you have, and also have the choice of building it for open or closed drive.

 

Back in the 50s, as that magazine article shows, these were very popular and strong transmissions for modified cars and racing.  Offenhauser actually once made an aluminum bellhousing to be able to use the Roadmaster behind the 32-48 Ford Flathead V8.  Somewhat difficult to find these days, but if you see one with Offy part number 3648, that is it.  That Ford swap also needs the short Buick input shaft.

 

 

[NC-car-guy]

48 minutes ago, Beemon said:

 

Thanks for this. I couldn't remember if it was one way or another. Since I don't feel like doing a complete engine tear down, looks like I'll have to bag this. A gentleman up in Canada is selling a 56 Nailhead for $500 and I've been considering starting new, rebuilding it myself, but it's coming up with the cash that's the hard part.

I might be wrong, but I don't think there's any need for a new crank....  Russ has a pilot bushing:

 

http://nailheadbuick.com/transadaptors

[avgwarhawk]

I run a 3 speed manual in my 54.   The gear ratio is unique in the respect that 1st is so low the engine at idle will move the car along in traffic without feathering the clutch as you go.  In short, I really do not row the pedal all that much in stop/go traffic.  Just sputter along.  Even in a parade.  First is so low I normally start off in 2nd gear  when on level ground.  However, the 3 speed screams for a 4th gear overdrive.  If she had a 4th gear overdrive the manual would be wonderful.  At highway speeds the rpm are high but a  darn torque monster.  My 264 will squat and go at highway speeds when in 3rd.  75+ mph is in the cards as well.  She keeps up with traffic without issue.    The manual does drip here and there.  

 

I have the best of both worlds....

 

My 60 has the Dynaflow.  As you know, just step and go.  The Dynaflow, although a heavy drinker(trans fluid) it is a wonderful piece of engineering.  If  I had my choice, I would go Dynaflow.  The 3rd pedal is nice.  Less leaks, etc.  But overall, missing the 4th gear overdrive for me makes it just short of being perfect.       

Edited April 17, 2017 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[Beemon]

Thanks for your thoughts, Chris. My dad had a 64 Chev pickup with a 4 speed and it sounds just like that. The 4 speed was essential because 1st was too low. That's the type of information I'm looking for. Unfortunately, for a complete 4 speed setup, it means butchering the heart of the car and that's not something I want to do. I'm hoping others will chime in on the 322 with 3-speed, but if that's the case then I might just stick with the Dynaflow and maybe see about finding some 3.9 gears.

[MrEarl]

I learned to drive standing in between my dads legs holding onto the steering wheel of our 48 Buick and pushing the clutch in and out and shifting when dad said "clutch" and "shift". My first cars in order were a 57 Chevy, 67 Chevelle SS, a slough of  USMC jeeps and trucks,  a 68 VW Bus and 70 Trumph GT-6+, all which of course had conventional transmissions. Next came the 54 Buick Special with Dynaflow. I went into acceleration shock. I honestly thought for several months that the way to drive a Dynaflow was to start off in L then shift to D.  My left leg didn't know wth was going on, but did hit the brake a few times til it figured it out. Then came a 74 Ford pick up with a 390 and automatic and I finally saw that g-forces do actually exist with automatics. But would I trade my 4 spd HD automatic transmission in my Silverado for a 4 banger, no way. Chris is spot on with his description of driving a mid fifties Buick CT. Personally I love them, but for something I am going to drive EVERY DAY and for years to come, I'd want a Dynaflow. But don't do anything until you ask your girl friend, as she is definitely a part of the equation here. 

[old-tank]

I stay busy enough with the steering, braking and roly poly of these old cars with then worrying about shifting.  Just call me shiftless.

[Bhigdog]

I would make my 55 Century a 3 speed stick in a heart beat if I could find all the parts...............Bob

[NC-car-guy]

54 minutes ago, Bhigdog said:

I would make my 55 Century a 3 speed stick in a heart beat if I could find all the parts...............Bob

Be careful i know at least two forum members  that have the parts

[Bhigdog]

Can't be Special parts.................Bob

[NC-car-guy]

Ah.  Then maybe one forum member

[avgwarhawk]

51 minutes ago, Bhigdog said:

Can't be Special parts.................Bob

 

I think Mr. Earl can set you up with what you need.  

[Bhigdog]

Now that I'm backed into a corner let me waffle a bit. When I was doing my 55 I heard of a stick parts car near Boston. Was going to buy it just for the stick set up until I found out that a special trans was different (less robust) than the 322's.

So to rephrase my earlier post: If I was still doing my 55 Century and had the parts I would make it a stick car in a heart beat...........Bob

[Beemon]

5 hours ago, MrEarl said:

 But don't do anything until you ask your girl friend, as she is definitely a part of the equation here. 

 

Its not her car

[JohnO]

I can't offer you any technical advice, but since you have time, noodle on it for a month or two and decide if you want to undertake a project will involve a lot of time and funds that may not be recovered should you decide to sell the car. I have five old Buicks and am perfectly content to drive them as they were originally designed. It is just an honor to be able to drive what was.  

[NTX5467]

46 minutes ago, Beemon said:

 

Its not her car.

 

(I don't believe you understand, Beemon.  It's those "dynamics" I mentioned a while back in this thread.  Something about where "your date" sat in the front seat, back then.)

 

In the earlier days of motorcars, it was a big PLUS if you could drive the car in town and not shift once underway.  That meant having a rear axle ratio deep enough to be able to use "high gear" from any speed from about 2mph upward.  The additional cylinders of the V-12 and V-16 motors ensured smooootness.  One reason those older cars had such deeeep rear axle ratios, it seems.  But until I got to know many '57 Chevy drag racers that I came to realize that all of their "fast cars" usually had 4.56 rear axle ratios, which made the higher rpm capabilities of the small block Chevy V-8 necessary, rather than a slower-turning larger motor from a big luxury car.

 

The deeper rear axle ratio also made it harder to kill the motor with incorrect clutch technique, too.

 

The "granny" 4-speed transmission is NOT a performance piece!  "Second gear" is the normal starting point from a stopped position.  IF you try to start in 1st, you're out of revs in about 15 feet and then the inertia of the gears makes it hard to shift quickly.  By the time you can de-clutch, get the shift done, and re-clutch, the vehicle is pretty near stopped again, by observation!  Better to use the clutch and start in 2nd.  The 1st gear is "occasional use" only.

 

Whether in 3 or 4 speed manuals, smaller/lower power engines had deeper low gears than the more powerful "racin' type" engines did.  Having more gears made for a better spread of the gear ratios between "low" and "high" gear to better keep the engine in the power band in racing situations.  The close-ratio transmissions usually started at 2.20 for low and 3rd was about 1.20, with high gear being 1.00, but they usually had rear axle ratios of 4.11 or so in the mix, too.

 

NTX5467

Edited April 18, 2017 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[Beemon]

12 hours ago, NTX5467 said:

 

(I don't believe you understand, Beemon.  It's those "dynamics" I mentioned a while back in this thread.  Something about where "your date" sat in the front seat, back then.)

 

I think I get it, two sticks up front and she gets confused...

[avgwarhawk]

14 hours ago, Beemon said:

 

Its not her car

 

 

Considering the conversation of stick shift and girlfriend/wife, having a standard makes it awful hard to keep you right arm around your special someone and shift at the same time.  In my struggles  to shift and keep my arm around my wife as we cruise down the road I sometimes have my wife shift the column.   I work the clutch.  It gets cumbersome the longer it goes on.  Fortunately only having to shift from 2nd to 3rd as I usually start out in 2nd does not make it too bad.  But none the less kind of a pain.    With the Dynaflow all we do is basically steer. This allows our other arm to stay around that special someone and often times wander if you catch my drift.     Food for thought!     

Edited April 18, 2017 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[Beemon]

Don't worry Chris, my hands always wander.

[avgwarhawk]

7 minutes ago, Beemon said:

Don't worry Chris, my hands always wander.

 

 

Funny cause I manage as well. 

[60FlatTop]

Give her this AND Rainex.

 

 

It's the American way.

[Guest]

18 hours ago, Bhigdog said:

I would make my 55 Century a 3 speed stick in a heart beat if I could find all the parts...............Bob

Edited April 18, 2017 by Guest
Dim bulb (see edit history)

[Guest]

If you decide to go with a stick in the 56 you may need the complete stick floor insert and the two smaller pedals they came with and the fine spline ujoint. I do have a stick column, just in case you don't want that other floor stick interfering with potential "options"! Oops, that's right, no stick column with power brakes and dual exhaust, sorry, momentary "Old timers disease"!

Edited April 18, 2017 by Guest (see edit history)