Beemon Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 I think I've bit off a bit more than I can chew here. I've seen some threads indicating that some of you have done work on these in the past, so here goes. Before I did any troubleshooting, I did a lot of research and replaced all the wax and electrolytic capacitors with modern replacements. I checked all capacitors before installing and all were good. The only difference in soldering is that I routed one capacitor to a different ground state. I then went through the circuit and checked every 1/2W resistor to 10% of their resistance values based on the schematic in the shop manual. Everything checked out. One 360 ohm resistor broke so I made a new one from a 100 ohm and 270 ohm resistor and routed them in series. The electrical difference between the two read 360 ohms after soldering. I even checked all mica and ceramic capacitors, which checked out via shop manual. So here's where I'm stuck. My next step, I fired it up. Nothing. Unplugged and pulled the vibrator. I crimped the can back so I could pull it out. Contacts are free, but very cloudy. I used a burnishing tool to clean the contacts, hoping it would work. Put it back in, fired it back up, nothing. This time I took the multimeter and traced the schematic. All heaters check 12VDC, both connectors on the vibrator dock check 12VDC, and two of the three connectors on the OZ4 dock read 12VDC the two pins for the OZ4 that read 12V come straight from the transformer - the third goes to the electrolytic capacitors. The vibrator is still also silent. I then checked for AC current at the vibrator - nothing. AC current at the OZ4, nothing. No surprise because the vibrator didn't want to fire, but wanted to make sure it wasn't just quiet. I should note here that the tubes seem to be ok - they all light up, are a soft glow and there is no indication of damage or loss of vacuum (I was told they would be a hazy gray). So what's my next step here? I'm really a novice, the extent of online tutorials go so far as "replace wax caps, you're good to go". I want to say the vibrator contacts are oxidized to the point where they are not working properly, but I'm also curious about the OZ4 tube. is there a surefire way to get the vibrator vibrating again (a way to clean out the oxidation)? Enjoy some pics of my sub-par soldering attempts: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpecialEducation Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Beemon said: The vibrator is still also silent. Thats your problem. The vibrator should buzz. If it doesn't, you don't have AC, and current has to alternate for transformers to work, so you have no high voltage as a result. Vibrators are touchy. They are the weak points (HA!) in these radios. Starting the car with the radio on can cause them to seize up. There are solid state alternatives. If you really love AM radio that much, at least convert the vibrator to solid state. Then you can troubleshoot from there (although shotguning the caps first probably fixed any other issues downstream). http://www.tech-retro.com/Aurora_Design/Accessories.html Edited March 2, 2017 by SpecialEducation Added link to solid state vibrator. (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted March 2, 2017 Author Share Posted March 2, 2017 Only 2 out of the 11 caps tested positive so they needed to be replaced. That's what I thought about the vibrator, but when I opened it up, it was covered in some type of rubber sheath so I thought it was silent running or something. Where can I find the solid state vibrators? I'm a bit iffy on solid state anything really because the last two solid state products I tried left me stranded somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpecialEducation Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 Did I ever share photos of the last Sonomatic I worked on? Still having upload issues, but here's a few... Don't fret too much, we still have 2 with tubes in them... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted March 2, 2017 Author Share Posted March 2, 2017 Pretty interesting setup, how did you set the tuner dial? Or do you do that from under the car? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpecialEducation Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 36 minutes ago, Beemon said: I'm a bit iffy on solid state anything really because the last two solid state products I tried left me stranded somewhere. Oh, no. Mechanical vibrators are junk. Watch the video on the page I linked to above. He goes through all the things that would toast an old school vibrator, and the VBx-1 doesn't miss a beat. It's the only thing I'd consider buying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted March 2, 2017 Author Share Posted March 2, 2017 Oh yeah, I did some reading on the Aurora products - you can only buy them from vendors, and the vendors I've talked to have said "we'll convert it for $150 assuming it's already working". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpecialEducation Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Beemon said: Pretty interesting setup, how did you set the tuner dial? Or do you do that from under the car? I feed it with my iPhone. I'm using the power switch in the left knob to turn it off & on. I was going to wire in the volume control, but ran out of time before nationals and haven't pulled it out to finish it yet. I just control the volume with my phone. 8 minutes ago, Beemon said: Oh yeah, I did some reading on the Aurora products - you can only buy them from vendors, and the vendors I've talked to have said "we'll convert it for $150 assuming it's already working". $25: http://www.vintagecarradio.com/accessories/accessories/vbx-1-electronic-vibrator/ Edited March 2, 2017 by SpecialEducation (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted March 2, 2017 Author Share Posted March 2, 2017 Thanks for the link Matt, I guess I was just looking in the wrong place. Going to go ahead and order it later tonight if I can't get the oxidation off the vibrator points. I'm still a bit skeptical, but I have seen the videos. I guess that's the difference between made in the USA and used to be made in the USA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpecialEducation Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 If that vibrator isn't loud enough that you can't hear it over the idling engine, it's not vibrating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 The gentle buzz of the radio vibrator while you are waiting for the radio to warm up......................Priceless! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 OK, once you have the vibrator sorted you can graduate to the following thread... http://forums.aaca.org/topic/288767-pleasurizer-opinion/ 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted March 2, 2017 Author Share Posted March 2, 2017 Thanks EmTee, been hiding this from the girlfriend since I've had the radio out. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpecialEducation Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Bhigdog said: The gentle buzz of the radio vibrator while you are waiting for the radio to warm up......................Priceless! I have a friend who bought a '57 Chevy back in the '80s. He was going through everything, figuring out what worked & what didn't. He turned on the radio, and it hummed but played no music. He cranked it all the way up; nothing. He turned his attention to something else for a moment, then POW! He was blown away with music! He felt kinda silly not thinking about the fact that it was a tube set. By the way... those OZ4s are usually pretty solid, but after you start making AC you find that you aren't converting back to DC, you can easily make your own low cost replacement solid state rectifier with a resistor and a couple diodes. Edited March 2, 2017 by SpecialEducation (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 31 minutes ago, EmTee said: OK, once you have the vibrator sorted you can graduate to the following thread. Which is EXACTLY why I clearly said "RADIO" vibrator in my post. .............Bob 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted March 2, 2017 Author Share Posted March 2, 2017 (edited) so hey, neat little trick. I took a spare wall outlet plug, connected one wire to a light bulb socket with a 40 watt bulb and ran that to the small pin on the vibrator, while running the other wire straight to the large pin on the vibrator. Read about it on a radio restoration forum. The vibrator came to life and started lighting up the bulb! I guess you need to run it for about 30 minutes or until the brilliance of the bulb is the same if you just wired it in by itself. This destroys the oxidation on the points and I guess rejuvenates the vibrator. I'm curious, however, as I would think both pins would work but only one of the two large pins activates the vibrator. After an hour, with no improvement, it's safe to say the vibrator is dead. I've ordered a solid state chip, so we'll have to see how that goes. Was kind of hoping the vibrator would work, was looking forward to the hum. Edited March 2, 2017 by Beemon (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 8 hours ago, Beemon said: was looking forward to the hum. Well, you could always reinstall your old differential... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 12 hours ago, Beemon said: so hey, neat little trick. I took a spare wall outlet plug, connected one wire to a light bulb socket with a 40 watt bulb and ran that to the small pin on the vibrator, while running the other wire straight to the large pin on the vibrator. Read about it on a radio restoration forum. The vibrator came to life and started lighting up the bulb! I guess you need to run it for about 30 minutes or until the brilliance of the bulb is the same if you just wired it in by itself. This destroys the oxidation on the points and I guess rejuvenates the vibrator. I'm curious, however, as I would think both pins would work but only one of the two large pins activates the vibrator. After an hour, with no improvement, it's safe to say the vibrator is dead. I've ordered a solid state chip, so we'll have to see how that goes. Was kind of hoping the vibrator would work, was looking forward to the hum. Have you checked the transformer? Or substitute a known good 0Z4. You demonstrated that the vibrator needs a load to work. Most good working vibrators will give trouble free service if used regularly. Years ago I heard of the now common electronic solid state vibrators. I forgot the name and terminology when I asked a friend where i could get a vibrator substitute. After a long puzzled look he said that a vibrator IS a substiute. If you want I can look in my 'pile' for serviceable parts. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted March 2, 2017 Author Share Posted March 2, 2017 The vibrator circuit with the AC wall socket at 40W bulb energizes the coil, not the contact points, so it forces the vibrator to vibrate. They say you should run it for about 30 minutes or until the light bulb shines as bright as a complete lamp circuit. That's when the contacts are clean. My vibrator never got bright after an hour, which is usually indicative that the points are too far gone. I consoled with my uncle, who drove the car from 75-78 to and from college, and he said the radio had stopped working somewhere between there. So at some point, the original vibrator eventually wore itself into the ground. The radio guys say it either works or it doesn't. I would like to have an original vibrator to run the radio, but I've already ordered the solid state unit. In the vast amount of 55s, a 56 and some 57s in the junkyard close to me, I don't remember the radios being pulled out, so maybe I'll go salvage some tubes and vibrators from those old radios. The vibrator in the radio, based on the wiring diagram, has the coil grounded to the case and is energized by the contact points. It's energized by the on switch, so I can't test the 0Z4 until after the vibrator is replaced. If I get the vibrator installed and the 0Z4 doesn't work, you can make a solid state unit by using two 3W 220 ohm resistors in series with two 1N4007 diodes rated at 1A 1kV, where you wire both diodes and resistors from the 3 and 5 pin respectively to the 8 pin, while the 1 pin is grounded to the shell (in this case, the 0Z4 can). (3)---/\/\/\/----|>|---(8)---|<|----\/\/\/\---(5) (1)---[shell] like that. I got that off another website, so credit is not mine on the schematic, but it seems to be the go to setup. I'll take you up on your offer, Willie, if the solid state vibrator lasts just as long as my solid state ignition system, or if all the vibrators at the junkyard don't work out. Thanks for offering! I guess my progress will be updated in 3 business days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 Might want to give Alan J Kriss a call. He's always happy to talk and help when able...........Bob Alan J. Kriss 416 Norris Brook Road Middlebury Center, PA 16935 (570) 376-3952 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosage Chavis Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 Reading through this thread...feels like I am in Japan all over again trying to break through the language barrier. When I removed my radio from my car a few months ago, I hooked it up to my battery and got nothing. Of course, not understanding these old radios need time to warm up, I just assumed my radio didn't work. How much diiferent are the radios between the 55 and 56? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 I'm thinking I need to go out to the garage and throw a battery in my '56 Bel Air which has been sitting idle for the last 25 years. The radio always worked great -- now I wonder if it still does... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpecialEducation Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 6 minutes ago, Kosage Chavis said: Reading through this thread...feels like I am in Japan all over again trying to break through the language barrier. When I removed my radio from my car a few months ago, I hooked it up to my battery and got nothing. Of course, not understanding these old radios need time to warm up, I just assumed my radio didn't work. How much diiferent are the radios between the 55 and 56? Internally, the basic tubeset radio principles are the same. In 1956 alone, there are 3 different circuit designs, but the need & method to make high voltage AC (225-250v) and rectify it back to DC is the same. The vibrator should buzz loud enough to be heard, because it's a mechanical device that converts 12vdc into square wave AC. It should take 30-45 seconds for the plates to warm up. Also, the capacitors don't last long if they sit unused. Replacements are cheap & easy, but a shorted cap can damage other things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted March 3, 2017 Author Share Posted March 3, 2017 8 minutes ago, SpecialEducation said: In 1956 alone, there are 3 different circuit designs The shop manual only shows 2 - one for the sonomatic and one for the selectronic. Is the third maybe a 55 or 57 retrofit? I would think the chassis would be the same, just the face is different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpecialEducation Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Beemon said: The shop manual only shows 2 - one for the sonomatic and one for the selectronic. Is the third maybe a 55 or 57 retrofit? I would think the chassis would be the same, just the face is different. No, 3 different circuits for the 1956 Sonomatic. They aren't even the same number of tubes. My book has 2 different models, but I'm pretty sure one of the Sonomatics I have is neither. The one I gutted was a rusty '707 that we actually only bought for its knobs. 981707 981708 Yours looks like a '707, too.. Edited March 3, 2017 by SpecialEducation (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted March 3, 2017 Author Share Posted March 3, 2017 The 981707 is the Sonomatic, and the 981708 is the Selectronic, the Buick wonderbar radio. It has extra tubes for signal seeking. They are identical on the outside except for the script in the face plate. I can't imagine GM radios being too wildly different on the inside, so if it is different, then maybe based on where it was manufactured, the inside chassis could be out of an Olds or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpecialEducation Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 7 minutes ago, Beemon said: The 981707 is the Sonomatic, and the 981708 is the Selectronic, the Buick wonderbar radio. It has extra tubes for signal seeking. They are identical on the outside except for the script in the face plate. I can't imagine GM radios being too wildly different on the inside, so if it is different, then maybe based on where it was manufactured, the inside chassis could be out of an Olds or something. Oh, I grabbed the wrong image... Either way, there were multiple manufacturers, and as I recall the difference was in the pre-amps. I promise you all of mine are Sonomatics and look identical from the outside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 As I lie in my bed tonight, listening to the cold March wind, I think of my Sonomatic in my 55. Cold. Alone. I think of sliding in beside her. I hesitate as I reach for her knobs. Am I stupid for thinking I can turn her on at such a late hour and on such a cold night? I gently turn on her switch. I'm joyed to see the soft welcoming glow on her face and here the soft hum of her vibrator. I can imagine her power transformer stirring to life as he feels the pulses surging through his windings. Her cold filaments, responding to the stimulations, begin to glow a soft pink. Her plates feeling the inrush of warm energy long to pass it on. Her hook up wires are willing but her resistors say no. It's too soon. Her capacitors will not be denied. Growing ever more charged and surging with energy until they can hold back no more, they empty themselves into the waiting speaker. Softly she sings me to sleep..................Bob 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 Dang, Bob, you trying to out do Bernie?? Ben 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 27 minutes ago, First Born said: Dang, Bob, you trying to out do Bernie?? Ben Oh Boy! No more $16 a gallon red wine for me. ....................Bob 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEarl Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 What a thread!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 7 hours ago, Bhigdog said: As I lie in my bed tonight, listening to the cold March wind, I think of my Sonomatic in my 55. Cold. Alone. I think of sliding in beside her. I hesitate as I reach for her knobs. Am I stupid for thinking I can turn her on at such a late hour and on such a cold night? I gently turn on her switch. I'm joyed to see the soft welcoming glow on her face and here the soft hum of her vibrator. I can imagine her power transformer stirring to life as he feels the pulses surging through his windings. Her cold filaments, responding to the stimulations, begin to glow a soft pink. Her plates feeling the inrush of warm energy long to pass it on. Her hook up wires are willing but her resistors say no. It's too soon. Her capacitors will not be denied. Growing ever more charged and surging with energy until they can hold back no more, they empty themselves into the waiting speaker. Softly she sings me to sleep..................Bob This will forever change my perception of turning the Queens knobs. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 1 hour ago, JohnD1956 said: This will forever change my perception of turning the Queens knobs. Not touching that one with a ten foot pole!! Ben 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 10 hours ago, Bhigdog said: As I lie in my bed tonight, listening to the cold March wind, I think of my Sonomatic in my 55. Cold. Alone. I think of sliding in beside her. I hesitate as I reach for her knobs. Am I stupid for thinking I can turn her on at such a late hour and on such a cold night? I gently turn on her switch. I'm joyed to see the soft welcoming glow on her face and here the soft hum of her vibrator. I can imagine her power transformer stirring to life as he feels the pulses surging through his windings. Her cold filaments, responding to the stimulations, begin to glow a soft pink. Her plates feeling the inrush of warm energy long to pass it on. Her hook up wires are willing but her resistors say no. It's too soon. Her capacitors will not be denied. Growing ever more charged and surging with energy until they can hold back no more, they empty themselves into the waiting speaker. Softly she sings me to sleep..................Bob Just don't get in his way when he walks around front to the dagmars. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joseph P. Indusi Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 In an effort to bring this thread back to the issue at hand, the solid state RADIO vibrators will work well but I will state two precautions at this time: 1. Replace the buffer capacitor(s) (condensers) in the power supply. 2. Always start the engine first then turn on the radio. DO NOT turn on the radio first and then start the engine. This precaution is even mentioned in the original owners manual with mechanical vibrators. Joe 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted March 4, 2017 Author Share Posted March 4, 2017 (edited) Thanks for the heads up, Joseph. All the condensers have been replaced. I had to make a new buffer condenser by putting a 1kV .01 uF and 1kV .022 uF condensers in series to make a .0068 uF 2kV condenser. In the images above, you can see it - its the blue and brown disc capacitors that are next to each other. I also had to make a 630V .005 uF and a .004 uF condenser by putting two .22 uF condensers in parallel. Apparently there is a 2-3 week wait time for shipping, so I ordered a working vibrator off eBay for $25 that will be here on the 8th. It'll hold me over until I can do the swap, let me diagnose some more, and have a backup vibrator in case the solid state unit doesn't last. Edited March 4, 2017 by Beemon (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buick5563 Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 To answer Kosage's question, there might be parts that interchange, but the radio itself will not. 54-55 will swap with just a knob change. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joseph P. Indusi Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 Beemon: Good luck with this radio. Above you discuss two .22 uF capacitors in parallel. Connected this way you will have the equivalent of .44 uF. However, two .0022 uF caps in parallel will give close to .004 uF. Joe 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted March 4, 2017 Author Share Posted March 4, 2017 11 minutes ago, Joseph P. Indusi said: Beemon: Good luck with this radio. Above you discuss two .22 uF capacitors in parallel. Connected this way you will have the equivalent of .44 uF. However, two .0022 uF caps in parallel will give close to .004 uF. Joe Joe, you're right. It was a typo, oops! In any case, I've checked all capacitors and all are within 20% error of the original schematic. This project has given me some good practice on DC circuits, to say the least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEarl Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 17 hours ago, buick5563 said: To answer Kosage's question, there might be parts that interchange, but the radio itself will not. 54-55 will swap with just a knob change. and repaint of the dial pointer, 54/white, 55/red (fluorescent orange) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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