History quiz - no financial prize

[carbking]

Waiting for a customer to show, so, just for grins, did a request into my carburetor database to determine the number of different original equipment carburetors used on US produced cars and trucks before WWII.

So, to receive a "carburetor history expert attaboy or attagirl":

(1) guess the number of carburetor manufacturers for ORIGINAL, not aftermarket, application on US cars and trucks built before WWII.

(2) state how many you can name (don't list them, as later guessers will have an unfair advantage).

After 2 days the individual closest to the original number gets the prize for (1); and the individual claiming to know the most gets to list them, and win the prize for (2).

Just for the record, I could only list about 60 percent of the total off the top of my head.

Will give a hint: both Marvel and Schebler were independent companies that merged to form Marvel-Schebler. This counts as two only, and Schebler was also known as Wheeler-Schebler, again only counting as Schebler. So you have a start of 2.

So in your post:

(1) list your guess for the total
(2) state how many different you can name

Jon.

[padgett]

Depends on whether including just regular production US  carburetors using Bernoulli principles and not things like wicks and surface flow. Also you specified cars and trucks so not aircraft, marine, or motorcycles.

 

So will just throw out a WAG and say 20 that were real manufacturers (though could as easily be a hundred, were over 2,000 recognized car manufacturers before WWII)

[carbking]

Padgett  - included are the original carbs for the Ford model T, which are "puddle" carbs.

 

No wick carbs are included.

 

US production cars and trucks only, no foreign (but remember a couple of foreign makes did have factories in the USA), no tractors, agricultural, industrial, marine, aircraft ([ can't do aircraft anyway, no FAA license], or motorcycle listings; although there is some crossover. The crossovers only counted if on cars and trucks.

 

So far, your guess is closest

 

Jon.

[30DodgePanel]

39 minutes ago, carbking said:

 

So far, your guess is closest

 

Jon.

 

Hi Jon,

I'm guessing he will be the winner of the non monetary trophy....

My guess was Zenith but I think that was actually a manufacturer of televisions or maybe radios ????   

[Spinneyhill]

Because I have no idea how many individual companies made carburetors and because there were many car makers I have not heard of (viz Padgett's 2000 car makers), I am going to go high and say 500.

 

How many can I list? Very few, less than 10.

[zipdang]

I'm on a low carb diet, so should probably only guess 8. As to how many I can list, you can probably tell that by my informed prior guess...

[padgett]

Suspect that leaves out Tillotsons unless including cyclecars ? Trying to define the envelope.

 

recall Stromberg-Zenith but not sure if used on US cars. (Springfield Rolls ?)

 

You are thinking of Zenith Radio corp (later Heath-Zenith)

 

Naturally I can't find my Carter Interchange book

 

Doubt that the Fish counts since do not think was ever on a production car.

 

My field is more cars that could be had with AC.

 

Do suspect that most of the 2000 (and many popular) used common engines. Were more assembled like a PC. Few other than majors made their own carbs.

 

Thanks for the exercise Jon.

 

 

Edited February 9, 2017 by padgett (see edit history)

[carbking]

Padgett - maybe someone else could do engines. I have a lot of information, but not enough to build a fairly complete list.

 

Jon.

[padgett]

Takes someone strange to do research like that. Only have one car now with a carb and have a manifold with a pair of real Carter AFBs just waiting to go on. Or maybe a big carb tripower. Even back in the day my real forte was FI (my B/P 'vette had a FI that had been modded within an inch of its life - like 800-900 cfm instead of 520 & all reject nozzles - but since the SCCA did not define what stock was...).

 

And then there was the 400 cfm 2GC on my lo-po 305. Even then the number of people outside of GM who could tell the difference between a 1.250 and a 1.375 venturi were well you and Doug.

[carbking]

In the example given, the "Wheeler" referred to Frank Wheeler, one of the four original investors in building the Indianapolis Motor Speedway.

I think they still have "carburetion day" at the Indy 500, regardless of the fact no carburetors have been used on the engines for quite a few years. A few years ago, some media types ignorant of history were griping about the term carburetion day.

Jon.

[old car fan]

I am all in,but with no answers

Edited February 8, 2017 by old car fan (see edit history)

[1937hd45]

I'll guess 427. Bob

[carbking]

Will be closing this at noon today; anyone else wish to make any guesses?

 

Jon.

[carbking]

OK - going to end the "contest".

 

Since I developed the contest and the rules, that makes me the judge, and there is no appeal!!!

 

Since no one stated they could name a certain number, will only award one carburetion history expert attaboy, and that goes to Padgett for his guess of 20 different, which is the closest to my "official" list of 91 (there may be more, but this is all I could find in the last 50 years).

 

Carburetors used as O.E. on US produced cars and trucks prior to WWII, at least my list. If I counted correctly, 91 different

 

Semi-major players are starred (*)

Major players are double starred (**)

 

A & D

A.W.T.

AMAC

American

Amplex

Ansted

Apperson

 

B.D.

Bell

Breeze *

Bracke (a division of Holley?), experimental production carb on 1933 Ford

Buick (not used on Buicks)

 

C.R.G.

Cadillac

Cameron

Carter **

Chadwick

Chandler Groves (2 unhappy Stromberg engineers, eventually bought by Holley)

Chapin

 

D.A.C.

Detroit Lubricator *

Duryea

 

E.M.F.

Eagle

Elmore

Ensign *

 

Fiat

Fletcher

Franklin

 

G & A

 

H & N

Harroun

Heath

Heitger

Holley Brothers (Earl & George, became Holley) *

 

I.H.C.

 

Johnson

Jonz

 

K & D

Keeton

Kingston **

 

Lafayette

Lenox

Locomobile

Longuemare (imported by Holley Bros BEFORE Holley carb, sold to Packard)

Lozier

 

Marvel (later merged with Schebler) *

Master (rotary)

Maxwell

Mayer (some automobile, many more marine)

Miller (rotary)

Motorette

Muir

 

Newcomb

 

Oakland

Oldsmobile

 

Packard

Panhard

Peerless

Penberthy *

Phianna

Pierce

Planhard

Pope

 

Rayfield **

Reicherback

Reo

Richard

Roader

Rolls-Royce (Springfield Rolls)

 

S.U. (Skinners Union, British-made, but imported on a couple of American vehicles)

Sauer

Schebler (a.k.a. Wheeler Schebler, later merged with Marvel) **

Scoe

SGV

Shakespear

Simplex

Standard

Stavers

Stearns

Stewart (purchased by Detroit Lubricator) *

Stoddard-Dayton

Stromberg **

Sultan

Swan

 

Tillotson *

 

White

 

Yale

 

Zenith **

Zephyr

 

Doing any listing such as the above is somewhat of a “slippery slope” as follows:

 

(1) Some car/truck manufacturers list a carburetor as their own in factory literature. Subsequent research finds that the carbs were specifically made for them by a different company; albeit sometimes with the car/truck manufacturers engineers working hand in glove with the carburetor company engineers. Examples of this practice would include: Cadillac (made by Johnson), Oakland (made by Schebler), and Packard (made by Detroit Lubricator).

 

(2) In my opinion, the two “best” aftermarket reference sources tend to be the original carburetor manufacturers sales books (an actual sale of a carburetor to a car/truck company was made); and Branham Insurance Guide for model information (allegedly, questionnaires were sent to and filled out by the car/truck manufacturers). A problem can arise with the carburetor sales data in that a “sale” may be made in one year for a model coming out the next. Also, some carb companies such as Rayfield and Schebler did not differentiate between carburetors for original equipment use or aftermarket use. Thankfully, most, especially Stromberg and Zenith did make this distinction. And some companies had carb books for different groups of carburetors. Example: Schebler listed virtually no tractors in their passenger/truck book and none in their marine book; the only Kingston book I have ever found listed tractors, but not cars and trucks. Literature this early is exceptionally difficult to obtain.

 

(3) The absolute best source obviously is the car/truck manufacturers parts manuals; however, these can also cause confusion, as the unit presented in the parts manual MAY be a service replacement unit instead of an original unit. This practice has continued even into the 1960’s. One tractor manufacturer had so much trouble with a certain brand of carburetor, they issued a recall and replace with a different manufacturer, and all reference to the original was removed from parts/service literature the following year. The only way to know the original existed was to have the parts/service manual from the actual year of production.

 

Finally, there were two reasons for posting this thread:

 

(1) I thought some readers might enjoy the diversion

(2) I am hopeful that some “specialists” in a specific marque might be sufficiently interested to peruse my listings and offer suggestions as to omissions and errors. I have exhausted my resources for my database, and it can only become more complete and more accurate through the aid of others. I do have many corrections in my database to upload to the web listings as I have time. The listings are as follows:

 

http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Passengerkits.htm

http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Truckkits.htm

 

Hope you enjoyed the diversion.

 

Jon.

[Spinneyhill]

Thank you for the list. It is interesting a lot of early car makers apparently made their own, based purely on the name.

[padgett]

"The only way to know the original existed was to have the parts/service manual from the actual year of production. " is true of any parts manual and sometimes even then a production part was already supeeceeded (see PF-23 and PF-24 oil filters - oem on a 67 Pontiac 400 was a PF-23 (no anti-drainback valve) but the parts book lists a PF-24 (with drainback valve)  for everything).

 

Many times the only way to tell if there is a difference (and could just be color or anodizing) is to examine the two parts..

 

I notice that A Lot of the 91 are car marque names and have to wonder how many were just remarked or a tag added (see "badge engineering")

[carbking]

Padgett - I did mention the car marque thing with the three examples (Cadillac, Oakland, and Packard). I would guess there are others; although I am aware of some of the car marques that did actually make their own carbs.

 

We will never know for sure. Good reference material printed before 1912 is virtually non-existant, and a lot printed after that time is suspect. A researcher just does the best one can, and tries to cross-check references.

 

Some of the carb makes (ie Buick) were separate from the car manufacturer. The Buick carb was not used on Buicks; rather it was used by Briscoe and Hackett. Eagle was used by Maxwell, and there are others.

 

Jon.

[trimacar]

I know this is an older post, but I'd take exception to one comment in the list.  You state that the Longuemare carburetor was imported by Holley Brothers, when in fact, in 1901, they had obtained the exclusive rights to manufacture that carburetor in the United States.  So, while tagged Longuemare, they were manufactured in Pennsylvania.  The Holley Brothers actually made a car of their own for a while, but once Henry Ford started using Holley's, that was all over.....

 

Attached are pictures of the original Longuemare/Holley Bros off the 1903 Pierce 6 HP engine in my collection......a very difficult carb to find these days....at this point it's unrestored so not very pretty!

[carbking]

David - Thank you for posting this. I won't disagree with you, as I was foolishly parroting conflicting sources. In researching the origins of the Holley Carburetor Company, I found conflicting information. Some sources stated that the Holley Brothers imported the Longuemere and then made a trip to Paris in 1901 and obtained the rights to produce the Longuemere in the USA. Others don't say anything about the importation, but do concur on rights to produce the carburetor in the USA. And again, the sources are foggy on when Holley actually became a company but 1903 seems to be the accepted date.

 

And thank you for posting the dataplate, I had not previously seen it.

 

Jon.

[trimacar]

I would not dispute (since I'm carbed challenged on many different levels) the fact that the Holly Brothers imported Longuemare carburetors early on.....but there is documentation that they traveled to France in 1901, that they obtained the rights to the design, and soon after were selling such carburetors in the States....so, you may be very well correct that 1903 was a turning point in their business....I'm no expert on this by any means, it's all a side show in my acquisition of a wonderful 1903 Pierce Stanhope engine....in fact, thought the carb was a later one and not original to this engine, but turns out it's a somewhat elusive contraption in and of itself.....pictured is the Pierce engine, and speaking of history, Pierce started building cars in 1901 using Dedion-Bouton engines, then in 1903 manufactured their own engine...basically, a carbon copy of the D-B engine....

[edinmass]

Carbking's name is very appropriate, but I take issue with one of the items on his list. Having owned Cadillac motor cars from the early teens to the multi cylinder monster Classics, I can confirm and testify that the product that Cadillac used manufactured by Johnson and was used to spill, waste, and cause countless people o pull their hair out for more than one hundred years SHOULD NOT BE CALLED A CARBURETOR! It has been suggested by many talented engineers and mechanics that an old boot with a hole in the bottom that gas flows into the top and out the bottom is a better product than Johnson produced and passed off as a carburetor. ? 

Edited April 14, 2017 by edinmass (see edit history)

[padgett]

Sorry but I consider a carb a "poorly controlled leak" and cannot even take credit for that. Personally have never seen a Holley that I could seal properly and a Q'jet is best approached with a tube of epoxy. Have the best luck with 2G(C)s as long as at least three (once made a progressive linkage from a spoon) - four if DCOE Webers.

 

[carbking]

Ed - I have been using the "leaky boot" analogy for about 40 years; and not just for the Cadillac/Johnson. And while I have not seen it on a Cadillac, there is evidence that your beloved  Johnson brand once placed an electric heating plate INSIDE THE BOWL of their "carburetor" to preheat the mixture!

 

Padgett - several years ago there was a "story" that British Leyland considered using Holley carburetors, but decided not to do so. Their reasoning: one puddle under the engine was sufficient!

 

And David - thank you again for bringing this thread back to life. I had originally hoped that there would be sufficient interest that some of the more knowledgable would peruse my website and offer additional or correctional information.

 

Perhaps I can "stir the pot" somewhat by adding a "best" category (Ed has already started a "worst"  category). My early favorites would be, in alphabetic order: Detroit, Stromberg, and Zenith. Carter joined these three in 1932, and Detroit departed in 1938. Rochester joined in 1952. All of these favorites should be tempered by the phrase "some models only".

 

Jon.

[edinmass]

My 1914 Cadillac with 7000 original miles had the bowl heater still connected when I got it. It sat from 1920 to 1998 and hadn't been messed with. The original points,condenser, and coil were still good..........and all failed within 40 miles after start up. First thing I did was disconnect the bowl heater. Before I tried to start it. Long sad story of one burning down a four car garage and house out west a few years ago...the collection, and the house were a total loss.........here is a photo of the car and me the day I got it running.......about  seven years ago.......and 150 pounds(more than now). I sure miss that car.

[padgett]

Didn't Ford have a sonic (choked flow) carb for a while ?

[carbking]

Padgett - according to Ford documentation, 1000 1933 V-8 Fords toward the end of the model year were equiped with Bracke carburetors (the normal carburetor used on the 1933 V-8 was a Detroit Lubrication). But Ford had a long term relationship with Holley, and wanted to back to Holley as a carburetor supplier. The carbs were to be removed at the first service by the selling dealer, and replaced with the standard carburetor.

 

This is probably the fire behind the smoke of "my car came from the factory with an experimental carburetor, and the dad-burned dealer removed it and the *&^%$#@ car hasn't been the same since". Wish I had a dollar for every time I have heard that story (for virtually every make of car imaginable!!!). If I did, I think I could probably buy Hawaii and retire

 

The Bracke has some type of really weird choke arrangement that is integrated into the metering and throttle. I had hoped maybe I would have sufficient time someday to disassemble and figure it out.

 

Somewhere, I have a picture of mine, but can't find the picture, and too lazy to look for the carburetor

 

Ed - that is a beautiful vehicle!

 

Jon.

Edited April 15, 2017 by carbking (see edit history)

[padgett]

Jon: am remembering something from the '70s when they were trying to control emissions. Ford/Motocraft/Autolite - one of them. May have used a variable venturi design.

Edited April 16, 2017 by padgett (see edit history)

[Frank DuVal]

Ford Variable Venturi Carburetor. Late 70s early 80s. Google has MANY hits on this carburetor and how to replace it!

 

Last gasp of carburetor use before fuel injecting the Ford V-8s.

[padgett]

Just something from failing memory, for some reason with all of the cars I've had, I've never owned a Ford or a Pick-up (though my mother had a '57 Ford Country Squire from a little shop called Holman-Moody that was rather quick and a 61 Thunderbird). May be a message there.