What is "correct" anyway?

[lancemb]

I installed an NOS master cylinder and booster assembly in my 1957 75 this weekend, and it's painted black.  I think that when most people restore them they want a bare metal finish as that is believed to be how they left the factory.  However, I have seen many unrestored 1957 and 1958 Buicks that had black painted assemblies, when there was no evidence that any restoration had been done under the hood.

 

Did some come from factory black, or were the black ones replaced at some point?  I know that even factory replacement parts do not alway look like the factory version.  Sometimes this is because of an engineering change, sometimes because of a supplier change, sometimes for shelf preservation, etc.  

 

For example, the exhaust deflectors that came on 1957's were different than the ones that were dealer replacement.  If you manage to find any originals still intact, the factory ones were a heavier gauge metal and had a crease along the top.  For the record, the reproduction ones sold by CARS are an exact replica of the replacement ones (I installed an NOS pair on my 76C and compared to reproduction side by side first) that are smooth on top.

 

So, what is "correct" for a restoration?  I guess it depends on how technical you want to get!

Edited January 17, 2017 by lancemb (see edit history)

[Smartin]

There's no telling what has been replaced/changed in the life of these cars, unless you have every receipt documenting it.

 

My 58 Limited and Roadmaster both had plated boosters and bare(as far as I could tell ...rust) MC's.  On the other hand, Matt Menges' 58 Limited coupe that is here in the garage now, has a black booster and MC.

 

My inclination is to say that the black ones are replacements or rebuilt units.  It also seems that's the norm for most replacement or rebuilt parts we buy over the counter, too. At least, the ones we can still get.

 

I live the extra "pop" under the engine compartment with the shiny parts.  It really bugs me when I open up an engine compartment, and everything is hosed down with black paint.

[Bhigdog]

2 hours ago, lancemb said:

So, what is "correct" for a restoration?

 

Whatever looks good to you and pleases the judges. I've given up on discussing the issue with other owners on the show field. Too many of them get all knowing

and are only too willing to tell you all about it..............Bob

[Ttotired]

I like going to shows with my car so people can see it

 

I don't show my car to "please the judges" I show it to please me and whoever wants to look at it and like it

 

What is correct is what suits the theme of your car, which means, if your trying to make it look like it just drove

out the factory, then painted/unpainted with or without the paint daub or that overspray pattern might be important if its important to you, not the anal retentive

 

My cars wont win concourse prizes

[Bhigdog]

20 minutes ago, Ttotired said:

My cars wont win concourse prizes

 

As an aside concours show's judging criteria is all over the map but usually far more emphasis is on pretty than correct. Just sayin.............Bob

[lancemb]

I agree with most of these comments.  Between differences in supplied parts and inconsistencies in factory applications I think there are a lot of things that are "correct" that many will argue are not.

[Beemon]

My 56 Buick came with mirrors that were not factory correct to the car but were correct for the car that came from the factory. Unless you're doing a concourse car, I don't think it really matters as long as it looks nice and works properly. 

[JohnD1956]

When people ask if my car is original or if its been restored I tell then no. Its been refurbished.  My definition of refurbished is maintained with replacement parts as originally engineered. 

[60FlatTop]

I prefer to leave some obvious blatant error to attract attention right way. Then they never even notice the small stuff.

[dei]

Really hard to tell by my '58 Buick Limited but having owned this since the 70's and never restored (obviously), you be the judge.

[Bhigdog]

With patina like that who cares about original..................Bob

[NTX5467]

fAt THIS stage of the vehicle's life, being "exactly correct" can be extremely open for debate!  Going back to original factory literature, as in chassis service manuals or illustrated parts books might be the only way to tell.  NOT to forget magazine road tests of the cars!!!  Most road tests had a picture of the engine compartment . . . although in black & white dot matrix, black paint could probably be determined.  In those pictures, something "non-black" would either be "natural" or "cad covered", depending upon what the component might be.

 

Even with these documentation resources, there can still be differences for the individual cars!  If the original boosters might have been natural, the factory GM/Buick parts' replacement could be painted black or cad.  Reason?  For ID purposes lest some issues arise with warranty issues . . . in which the "factory person" would know that the booster had already been replaced or not.  Or if there was some production spec upgrade and the "color" was the ID for the upgraded part. .  EVEN as to which shift at which plant the vehicle was built in!  Several different scenarios

 

In many respects, you are restoring YOUR car, with its own unique history from after it left the factory.  It was somewhat common for dealers to not order OSRVM on a car, then charge to add one at the dealership . . . which might have been an "accessory part" or one of the customer's choosing, NOT always a GM part.  Similar with heaters and other things which were not factory equipment.  This could be make or model dependent, or regionally oriented.

 

Key thing is to document the vehicle as it comes apart for "resurrection".  Traces of paint can usually be found under mounting flanges and such.  Cad can "evaporate", but how clean things are under the flanges might be a sign it was once there.  Then, proceed accordingly, at your preference.  With the hi-res documentation, this can become documentation of "How MY car was when I got it apart".

 

In the world of vehicle restoration, there might be some perceived "industry standards" of what was what, but the other factor is "what it took to keep the line running", which could be MORE important at that point in time than whether the, for example, power brake boosters were black or natural or cad.  PLUS, unless you knew the guy that wrote the specs for procurement, NO real way, other than to see as many cars as you can, of how things came . . . generally . . . when they were delivered to the original ordering dealership.  IF you can find some of the "make ready" techs from back then that were paying attention to the cars' components, PLEASE ask them and document it for the judging manual.  Or some of the assemblers on the line that were, similarly, paying attention to individual components they were installing.

 

 . . . . And the beat goes on!

NTX5467

Edited January 18, 2017 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[dei]

6 hours ago, Bhigdog said:

With patina like that who cares about original..................Bob

 

I know, I know, Just thought with the minor hint of paint at the back top part of the can might suggest it was painted.

[Alfa]

Paint? Oh is that what it used to be?

[lancemb]

18 hours ago, dei said:

Really hard to tell by my '58 Buick Limited but having owned this since the 70's and never restored (obviously), you be the judge.

Looks like original unpainted to me!

[Bhigdog]

Pull the MC off of the can and look under the flange. Then pull the can and look at the back of it's flange. Then, when that is done, "restore" it to whatever pleases you because in this case there is no absolute "correct" and whatever you do some "expert" will "correct" YOU......................Bob

[buick5563]

You can't spell patina without paint.

[buick man]

… as to painted or plated here are a few photos from my one owner documented Los Angeles R.M. key components during the time I rebuilt it the braking system.  Pay careful attention to areas which would indicate if this original to the car M.C. components were painted or not.  We believe, upon your complete inspection and observations, one will conclude you are looking at gold cad plating (GCP) for the canister can and gray paint for the M.C.  BTW, GCP was found in well preserved condition in the inside bore of the canister can where the plunger rides.  Just for giggles n hints,  plating can also be observed where the canister can butts up against the bulk head brake housing on the firewall.  But enough said, there are many other clues as well to support that where most of the braking system was concerned, the factory installed parts or completed components were indeed plated as needed to protect components … Can you find other clues as well ?…  As seen the factory cast iron master cylinder upon disassembly was apparently a battle ship gray paint over factory gold cad plating from the factory and not black painted over bare cast.  In photos number 3 & 4 the gold cad plating renders especially tell tale clues to the mystery at hand ...

 

….From what we have found over the years, it appears replacement factory to dealer original factory Buick Parts were painted as well, but the  parts received by dealers after the traditional 3-year factory holding policies, were then sent out painted gray.  For the aftermarket suppliers and NORS/rebuilds of approved after market parts these were painted black including both canister and the cast iron M.C upon rebuilding. Many times the rebuild sticker has fallen off from decades of storage..  Also, it may once again be prudent to mention that we have found on more than one occasion, that over the years, many rebuilt parts that are so called " bought out or found on closed dealer's shelves" are actually parts that for whatever reason at one time or another, placed into existing saved empty yet convenient original authorized factory parts boxes for storage at the dealer for inventory conveniences, and many decades have past now and are now being sold in those same boxes as OEM originals with no one the wiser on ebay.  The same holds true for saved old empty factory boxes that are found and rebuilt parts are put into them and are being sold as NOS factory originals … 

[NTX5467]

Great pictures and visual documentation!

 

NTX5467

[Beemon]

buick man, funny you should mention gray painted rebuilt units - my unit went out on my grandmother back when she was driving my mother in the back seat and the unit I originally pulled off my car was painted a gray/blue color. I wish I had a picture, but it fits with your suspicions.

[lancemb]

11 hours ago, buick man said:

 

….From what we have found over the years, it appears replacement factory to dealer original factory Buick Parts were painted as well, but the  parts received by dealers after the traditional 3-year factory holding policies, were then sent out painted gray.  For the aftermarket suppliers and NORS/rebuilds of approved after market parts these were painted black including both canister and the cast iron M.C upon rebuilding. Many times the rebuild sticker has fallen off from decades of storage..  Also, it may once again be prudent to mention that we have found on more than one occasion, that over the years, many rebuilt parts that are so called " bought out or found on closed dealer's shelves" are actually parts that for whatever reason at one time or another, placed into existing saved empty yet convenient original authorized factory parts boxes for storage at the dealer for inventory conveniences, and many decades have past now and are now being sold in those same boxes as OEM originals with no one the wiser on ebay.  The same holds true for saved old empty factory boxes that are found and rebuilt parts are put into them and are being sold as NOS factory originals … 

Thanks for the pictures and info!  I pretty much agree with your assessment; I think these cars USUALLY came from the factory with cad plating on boosters, but that replacements even from OEM supplier were USUALLY black.  I just hesitate to say ALWAYS because I've seen so many weird and inconsistent things on old cars.

 

I've also seen USED parts placed in OEM boxes, sometimes trying to be passed off as NOS.  I've even seen this on Ebay, where the part is OBVIOUSLY not new but seller is billing it as such.

 

The unit I just installed showed no indications of having been previously used (from the outside) although it had some scratches on it from handling over the years and the box was kind of beat up.  I can see somebody putting an old part right back in an NOS box after changing it out.  It would seem odd though IMO to hold on to a box and then put a rebuilt unit in it, particularly for something like this.  However, for the price I paid for it I really don't care whether it is rebuilt or new, because it seems to work perfectly!  Big Blue stops better than ever!!

 

I have a vacuum pump in an NOS box and I am not sure if it is actually new and has just gotten dirty from storage over the years and not being in a bag, or if it is actually used; is there an easy way to tell on these?  It also has a slightly different connection than one that I know for sure to be NOS and is supposed to be the same part number.  I'll post a separate thread on this soon as I'd like some feedback...