My official 1936 D2 sedan resurrection thread

[carbking]

Be VERY happy that Dodge used the Stromberg rather than the Carter BBR-1 used by Plymouth!

 

The 3-26B definitely identifies the carb as being original to a 1936 Dodge.

 

(Opinion) the very best thing one can do with a Plymouth Carter BBR-1 is replace it with the Carter W-1 used by Chevrolet. The next best thing one can do with a Plymouth Carter BBR-1 is replace it with the Stromberg from the Dodge.

 

Jon.

Edited August 12, 2019 by carbking (see edit history)

[Pete in PA]

33 minutes ago, carbking said:

Be VERY happy that Dodge used the Stromberg rather than the Carter BBR-1 used by Plymouth!

 

The 3-26B definitely identifies the carb as being original to a 1936 Dodge.

 

(Opinion) the very best thing one can do with a Plymouth Carter BBR-1 is replace it with the Carter W-1 used by Chevrolet. The next best thing one can do with a Plymouth Carter BBR-1 is replace it with the Stromberg from the Dodge.

 

Jon.

Well then I'm feeling doubly lucky!

What, exactly, are the problems one encounters with the dreaded Carter BBR-1?

Edited August 12, 2019 by Pete in PA (see edit history)

[jpage]

The EXV-2 is the original carb for the '36 Dodge. I have a couple of these carbs and some parts. I made a new insulator from a piece of industrial brake lining, seems to have worked okay. Float setting is important too. I had made all new linkage from stainless welding rod. The original type retainer clips should still be available from NAPA or a good parts store. I've also figured out how to restore the original sealed Burgess air cleaner. Here is a couple of pics of my carb.

[Pete in PA]

That's beautiful, Jim.  How did you get the goldish color on the potmetal casting?

[carbking]

1 hour ago, Pete in PA said:

Well then I'm feeling doubly lucky!

What, exactly, are the problems one encounters with the dreaded Carter BBR-1?

Other than fuel efficiency, power, driveability, and reliability...........................probably nothing.

 

All joking aside, it was a "price leader". 

 

Of all the carburetors Carter ever made throughout history, the BBR-1 is the only one Carter felt needed a troubleshooting guide.

 

BBR-1 troubleshooting guide

 

I think I have posted this before, but:

 

Fast forward to 1947. The plant making the BBR-1 carburetors for Carter went on strike. Carter had sufficient inventory to service all the BBR customers for the duration of the strike except Plymouth. This was an era when, while yes, there were lawsuits, people tried to solve problems without the help of attorneys. Carter offered to sell the more expensive Chevrolet W-1 to Plymouth at the BBR-1 price for the duration of the strike, the catch being that, the much more efficient W-1 (S.A.E. size 2) would not fit the 1947 Plymouth (S.A.E. size 3) intake manifold. Plymouth said no problem, the 1939 manifold was the size 2, they would just cast new manifolds (with a different part number) to accept the W-1.

 

Carter did, and Plymouth did, and everyone was happy; until about 6 months after the strike. Plymouth started getting complaints where neighbors or close friends had bought strike and non-strike cars and started comparing notes. Seems the customers with the strike cars (W-1) ran about 5 MPH faster (yes Virginia, man has been racing since the beginning of time  ) and got 25~35 percent BETTER fuel economy. The non-strike car buyers weren't happy! I never heard how Plymouth settled the complaints.

 

Here is at least partial proof:

 

1947 Plymouth W-1

 

Jon.

 

 

[Pete in PA]

Very interesting and I feel very fortunate to have a solid Stromberg.  I only asked because I've always had such good luck with Carter carburetors.  The AFB, the AVS and even <gasp> the Thermoquad.  They've all been good to me.  Now Holley, don't get me started on them.  The 4160 on my Imperial was maddening.  Ran great one minute, barely ran the next.  I was through that carb I'll bet 20 times.  Straightedges, calipers, you name it.  Could NOT figure out why that SOB would run great and then stick it to me.

Say, wait a minute.  I just looked at your sig.  You own the shop in Eldon, MO?  I was just about to call you for a gasket kit for my Stromberg! LOL

[Ian_Greenlaw]

Whoa......that looks fantastic.....I'm sending you mine !

[jpage]

That was a spray can finish that I bought from Eastwood many years ago. Don't know if they still carry it. It's darker than it should be but does add some protection.

[carbking]

12 hours ago, Pete in PA said:

Very interesting and I feel very fortunate to have a solid Stromberg.  I only asked because I've always had such good luck with Carter carburetors.  The AFB, the AVS and even <gasp> the Thermoquad.  They've all been good to me.  Now Holley, don't get me started on them.  The 4160 on my Imperial was maddening.  Ran great one minute, barely ran the next.  I was through that carb I'll bet 20 times.  Straightedges, calipers, you name it.  Could NOT figure out why that SOB would run great and then stick it to me.

Say, wait a minute.  I just looked at your sig.  You own the shop in Eldon, MO?  I was just about to call you for a gasket kit for my Stromberg! LOL

Pete - I have long been of the opinion that when items come to market, there are two opposing views of the item:

 

(1) the engineering view that the item should be of the highest quality, hang the cost

(2) the accounting view that the item should cost at little as possible, hang the quality

 

Given the above, the BBR was an "accountant's carburetor", while the W series were "engineer's carburetors". 

 

As far as your other comments about Carter, I have a TQ on my GTO, and two AFB's on my shop truck!

 

Jon.

 

 

[1936 Viper]

The "hated" Carter BBR1 (rebuilt) on my 36 D2 runs good will have to report back on mileage. Must have replaced original somewhere along the way.

 

[1936 D2]

Question: Why are there so many BBR-1's on the remaining '36 Dodges and not original EXV_2's? (I have always wondered.)

[Dodgenz]

Mine have BBR-1's on them and run well. I get about 20mpg which doesn't seem bad considering weight, age and general overall condition of the motors, which aren't recently reconditioned. Being NZ cars we didn't get the Stromberg option - I must admit I didn't know they were the original standard.

[1936 Viper]

On 8/16/2019 at 9:49 PM, 1936 D2 said:

Question: Why are there so many BBR-1's on the remaining '36 Dodges and not original EXV_2's? (I have always wondered.)

This may be part of the answer from Hemmings

When Carter began producing its BB-1 carburetor for use in 1932 Chrysler products, it didn’t take technicians of the Thirties long to realize how much more advanced it was than any offerings from Zenith, Stromberg and other updraft carburetors of the same era. The carburetor often appeared on any other manifold it could fit, and Carter soon took advantage of its popularity and began marketing replacement bolt-on carburetors to retrofit onto cars, trucks, tractors and inboard boat engines. The Carter BB-1 is still an often sought-after unit for many classic car enthusiasts, and several iterations of the Ball & Ball updraft are still found at swap meets and pick-a-part yards today, if you know where to look. BB-1 carburetors (and the newer BBR-1s and BBR-2s) were used on many production cars:

The Carter BBs were also used in thousands of industrial and/or farm applications using six-cylinder Chrysler engines.

Like most early Carters, BB units can be identified by the aluminum tag mounted on one corner of the fuel bowl, usually a three-digit or four-digit number followed by an “S.” A second letter after the “S” indicates an engineering change from the original part number. Identification without that tag is extremely difficult; however, The Carburetor Shop does offer a carburetor ID service for $10, if you send them the carburetor.

Three different BB units were offered, and they are usually referred to by their size designation, established by SAE. Size one units have a one-inch bore and a 23⁄8-inch mounting pattern for the intake manifold. Size 2 carburetors have a 1¼-inch bore size and a 211⁄16-inch mounting base; and Size 3 units have a 1½-inch bore size with 215⁄16-inch manifold bolt pattern. Ball & Ball units are desirable because of their slender body, which fits in tight engine locations much more easily than other updrafts. The BB’s main metering jets are easily adjustable from outside the carburetor body, and they have an adjustable idle circuit as well. The throttle shafts are long and have a universal clamp-type throttle lever, making them easily adaptable to various accelerator configurations.

When sourcing a good Carter Ball & Ball, try to find one that came off an automotive engine; many units were designed for use on trucks and boats and are not as easy to adapt for passenger cars. Marine units have different accelerator pumps, and many truck units were equipped with vacuum-type governors. These units can be altered, but it is more expensive.

Replacement carburetor kits are still very easy to locate, and some replacement items used to adapt truck or marine units to passenger cars are available but expensive. It is also important to note that Carter B&B carburetors do not like having the accelerator mashed repeatedly; they are designed to start by one primer tap on the pedal, and then use of the choke is all that is necessary. More Carter updraft information is available at The Carburetor Shop’s website and a detailed repair procedure brochure is available online at The Old Car Manual Project, www.oldcarmanual.com.

The Carburetor Shop 573-392-7278www.thecarburetorshop.com

[carbking]

Viper - the carb pictured on your 1936 is obviously not original; it is a later model. Cannot tell exactly which one, as I am unable to read the identification number.

 

It is later than 1938. The BBR series (opinion) graduated from horrible to fair with the 1939 models. Still nowhere close to the other Carter series, or the Stromberg.

 

As to the article in Hemmings; the author interviewed me many years ago before writing the article. We spoke ONLY of the BB-1 updraft carbs, of which I am a big fan. As updraft carbs go, I place them behind only the Stromberg SF/SFM series, and the Zenith 63/263 series (both the Stromberg and Zenith came out about the same time as the BB-1). Letter grade = A. The author then added the BBR downdraft information to the article. Note the author placed our website/telephone number in his article. I told him at the time I would try to help with questions.

 

As to why so many BBR's on on early Dodges, guessing there are two reasons:

 

(1) Dodge trucks used the BBR series

(2) Commercial rebuilders grouped the Plymouth BBR with the Dodge Truck BBR and also stated it could be used on the Dodge passenger. They also listed the Stromberg, but the Stromberg was ALWAYS more expensive, and people being what they are, cheaper won out.

 

All of the 1933~1938 Plymouth BBR carbs were superseded in 1939 with the Carter 439s. These were requested from Carter by Plymouth and sold through Plymouth dealerships as factory replacement units. I have personally sold many of these to customers wishing to be as original as possible (Plymouth). These carbs did work, although never as well as either the Stromberg or the Carter W-1.

 

For those that are happy with their BBR's - great. But for those who are less than happy, try one of the Strombergs, or the Chevrolet W-1's. Have been suggesting/selling the Chevrolet W-1's for years to MoPar folks, and to date, NO bad feedback from those who have tried one. In fact, quite the opposite from everyone who has offered feedback.

 

One other thing, the identification service we offer has been modified from the terms in the article - PLEASE CALL BEFORE SENDING THE CARBURETOR!

 

Jon.

Edited August 20, 2019 by carbking (see edit history)

[1936 Viper]

Carbking

my carb definitely looks newer than car will look for ID letter supposedly on stiffening vane on throat. (Rebuilt through Then and Now Auto in my neighborhood.)

Thanks, for the info.

Lee 

[1936 Viper]

Carbking,

I did notice the Hemming's article seemed to echo your information.

Lee

[carbking]

Lee - the identification is visible in the bottom picture just above the word "corp" on the strengthening vane; but I cannot read it.

 

Jon.

[Pete in PA]

The exhaust system has arrived!  The exhaust system has arrived!

And I'm underwhelmed.

For the money I spent I thought I'd get something, oh, more 1936ish but I guess I was expecting too much.  The flange that holds the headpipe to the manifold is way oversize with long slots, an off-the-shelf part.  Fortunately I can re-use the one from the system that was on the car.  It is much more compact, matching the shape of the exhaust manifold flange, and it's in great condition so why not?

The headpipe is made of heavy gauge steel and has quite a few bends in it.  I was worried about getting it into place due to its length but after about 15 minutes of fiddling (when I was about to give up for the day) my almost 13 YO son exclaimed "I got it!"  So it looks like the next generation is already taking over.  LOL  It does require a bit of fiddling since the pipe drops straight down from the manifold, makes a 90 degree turn aft, has to go up over the crossmember, and then head outboard to *go through* a hole in the frame.  I'm still trying to figure out how junior did it.

For me the biggest disappointment is the two-piece tailpipe.  Really?  For the price I paid and then the salty shipping on top of that I really thought I'd be getting a one-piece tailpipe.  But no, there's a joint over the rear axle and a clamp to seal that joint.  As soon as I saw the big box on my front porch I knew that tailpipe was going to be in two pieces. :-(

The muffler is a current production piece by AP.  A good brand for sure, maybe the best for domestic vehicles.  The 2" outlet nipple was (I think) removed and replaced by a smaller diameter nipple.  I could smell the welding (a good job!) when I opened the box.

I guess I should be grateful.  Someone is making a reasonable facsimile of the original 1936 system and that's a WHOLE lot more than was available to the PO or the PO before him.  I don't have to use JC Whitney flex pipe!

Enjoy the pics.

Edited August 23, 2019 by Pete in PA (see edit history)

[Pete in PA]

Having trouble with pics now.  Will try again later.

[jpage]

The flange should be welded to the pipe. I can't seem to get my manifold pipe to clear the bottom of the manifold and go through the hole in the frame, so I took off the manifold and will install it then install the manifold. They probably made the  2 piece exhaust pipe to save on shipping since it's so long! I'm surprised that they couldn't locate an oval muffler with the correct dia. inlet and outlet pipes. Looks like they are really long too. mine are only about 2 in. long. Now you can get her fired up!

[Pete in PA]

Yes, I'm sure the two-piece pipe is done to save on shipping.  But let me tell you the shipping charge was pretty hefty anyway.  If I measured the box the system came in and weighed it I think the actual shipping cost would be half of what I paid.  I'm going on the fact that I crated and shipped a large sunroof assembly from my area to NW Indiana a couple of months ago.  IT was a very large crate and weighed 90# and cost the same as what I paid for the exhaust system shipping.  If the tailpipe had been shipped as one piece I would be taking a "grin and bear it" stance.  Oh, well,  onward and upward...

There will be no firing up until the carburetor gasket set arrives.  I'm surprised it hasn't already.  Carb king said it was in stock and it must be a fairly small package.  Maybe tomorrow?

In the meantime we'll get the exhaust system installed and the car back on its tires for the first time in over a year.  I want to roll it outside for some pics.  After putting it on ramps and stands I realized that I have absolutely no good overall shots of the car.  Only the ones I took on the day that I first rolled it out of the seller's garage almost 3 years ago.

[Pete in PA]

Here are a couple more comparison pics of the old and new exhaust systems.  Installation should be pretty painless.  The only thing I'm concerned about it untwisting the tailpipe hanger to get it back into the correct position.  The PO did a real number on it to accomodate the JC Whitney exhaust pipe.

[Pete in PA]

Son and I spent almost the whole day at the Dodge Garage yesterday.  The weather was beautiful.  We pulled everything that was surrounding the car out of the garage.  Then we remounted the rear wheels.  I attempted to install the muffler and tailpipe but that didn't go well.  Assuming that the shape of the head pipe is correct the pipe seems to be a bit low at the outlet.  I'm guessing that this is due to deteriorated mounts.  I can certainly see that they're mush so I'll need to deal with that.  
More worrisome is the size/profile of the new muffler.  I have no idea what the original muffler looked like but there isn't a lot of space for it to fit within the confines of the frame.  I tried a bunch of different orientations but none were satisfactory.  Anyone know what an original muffler looked like?
We lowered the car onto its wheels/tires for the first time  in almost 2 years and rolled it out into the sunshine.  We took everything out of the interior and vacuumed thoroughly, getting a lot of grime and grit.  The seats are (IMO) in remarkable condition for being over 80 years old.  The biggest issue is that the seam and/or fabric at the back of the cushion has torn causing the rear edge of he seat to expand from the spring pressure.  Remarkable, the springs, the framework, and even the burlap is really nice.
Here's a  pic from yesterday.

Edited August 25, 2019 by Pete in PA (see edit history)

[Pete in PA]

That pic gives a deceptive view of the car's condition.  Most of the car is in gray primer for some reason and I'm still trying to figure out exactly what happened at the right front corner.  The fender was almost certainly off the car and may have been replaced.  The RH leaf spring assembly has been replaced.  There's some deformation at the front of the running board, and the front door fit is off.  The top edge at the rear corner is too high and it looks like it was just barely touching the door opening.  I'd say that the car was hit at the front corner but there doesn't seem to be any cowl damage.
I'm feeling pretty discouraged right now but I'm sure that will change when the carb kit arrives and we hear the engine run for the first time!

Edited August 25, 2019 by Pete in PA (see edit history)

[carbking]

Pete - its on the way. Delay was caused by the accelerator pump bin being empty. Had to fabricate a new accelerator pump. Monday or Tuesday. Sorry.

 

Jon.

[jpage]

Don'y get too depressed, it's still in better condition than mine was! Now I'm having trouble finding the right upholstery materials!

[Pete in PA]

I was away from home most of yesterday running errands and visiting with my dad.  When I got home the carb kit was waiting for me and it looks to be a very, very complete kit.  More stuff in there than I imagined by far.  So thanks for that, Jon.

I hope to get the carb together later today, install it, hook up a gas can and some jumper wires, and see what happens.  Will get video for sure but I need to upload it to youtube for viewing.

Here we go!

[Pete in PA]

Been a rough week or two here.  Can you say "detached retina?"  Yeah, no fun to be had.
But today my son and I went to the Dodge determined to make her run.  After checking the the spark plug gap and adjusting that, checking the point gap and adjusting that, filling the carb bowl with gas, squirting some gas down the throat,  and adding some jumper wires to the ignition circuit I pressed the starter pedal and *shazam* she started!  Yep, first time cranking after 40 years and she fired within seconds.  I couldn't believe it.  I had to adjust the choke flap a bit but she started and idled quite well.  There's some noise from the tappets so I guess I'll have to adjust them.

 

We filled the carb bowl twice which allowed her to run enough to thoroughly smoke out the garage so that was nice.  It really was quite a thrill to hear that flathead 6 run after so many years.  We're looking forward to connecting a temporary fuel tank and filling the cooling system so she can run longer and I can make some adjustments.

 

I have video but need to figure out how to upload it to youtube.

[1936 Plymouth]

Greetings,

      I just stumbled onto this blog and will need to take some time and read it through. I recently acquired my 1936 Plymouth from a gentleman in Lancaster and am starting the resto-mod process.

 

Thank you for all the good reading.

 

Tj

 

[1936 Plymouth]

[ArticiferTom]

That's a beautiful car . Is paint original  ?  Please consider doing a rejuvenation and make it an award winning Historic Preservation AACA vehicle . Looks like a good driver .

[keiser31]

33 minutes ago, 1936 Plymouth said:

Greetings,

      I just stumbled onto this blog and will need to take some time and read it through. I recently acquired my 1936 Plymouth from a gentleman in Lancaster and am starting the resto-mod process.

 

Thank you for all the good reading.

 

Tj

 

You may want to start your own thread since this one is about a 1936 Dodge.

[Pete in PA]

I'm thrilled to hear about your car but as Keiser31 says you should start your own thread and do it in the Plymouth section.  I check in over there frequently as I'm sure many other Dodge owner do.

Are you in Lancaster, PA or Lancaster, CA?

 

What body style is your car?  There was a beautiful black coupe at Hershey a couple of years ago.

[1936 Plymouth]

It's all original with the "big" exception of the motor. My guess is it now has a 1955 flat head straight 6.

 

My plan is to get it running very sound and reliable.

 

 

[Pete in PA]

Oh, that's nice.  Very nice.  And my plan for my car is pretty much the same.  A full resto on one of these cars is an exercise in burning $100 bills.  (Sorry JPage)

Coincidentally your car is the same body style as my 36 Dodge, the seldom seen four door *non* touring sedan.  IOW it doesn't have a trunk.  Not nearly as utilitarian as the touring sedan but IMO it looks a whole lot better with the covered spare on the back.
Your car appears to be the price leading P1 series as evidenced by the lack of bright trim bars on the headlamp pod stands.  P1 production was much lower than P2, like about 90k P1 units to 420k P2 units.  P1  non-touring sedan production was exactly 19,104 units.  I can almost guarantee you that your car wasn't delivered with white sidewall tires but they sure look great.  I intend to put a set of them on my D2.
If you read this post from page 1 you'll see that the PO of my D2 stripped a 36 P1 touring sedan many years ago and the parts he pulled came with my car.  LMK if I can help.  Looks like you may need a front bumper, LOL.
Judging by the palm trees in your pic you're not in Lancaster, PA.  Too bad.  I'd love to meet and compare notes.

 

Edited September 5, 2019 by Pete in PA (see edit history)

[1936 Plymouth]

I'm in Southern California, just north of San Diego.

 

I bought the car out of Lancaster PA and had it shipped. I stumbled onto a real beauty, the grandfather of the gentleman I bought it from bought the can new, and it was stored for 40 + years just prior to me getting it. My understanding is, about 5 years ago, the son of the original purchaser started to do some work on it. He did the braking system, added the new tires and a new roof insert. In addition, all new plugs, wires, dist cap, rotor, etc.

 

I just recently replaced the fuel tank, added a 6 volt electric fuel pump. To note, I did read your fuel tank removal dilemma and I disconnected the drivers side, rear leaf spring connection in order to remove the original tank. 

[jpage]

Sorry Pete, I have to correct you...it's a lessen in burning $1000 bills!!!! But it is still a fun hobby. I've gone this far so I have to finish. Looks like I'll be making my own running board mats too! Here's a few snaps of the new handmade right outer rocker ,corner and tailpan. These parts were completely missing on this car.Just have to finish the left side and the body is done! I have it almost welded in. Now I need time!  I'm glad to hear that you got your car running, I'm sure that was quite exciting!

[Pete in PA]

Go Jim go!  Glad to see you're making progress.

My son and I went back to the Dodge this past weekend with the intention of filling the cooling system so we could keep the engine running longer.  Of course we had to see that the engine started again before adding coolant (LOL) and that was easy.  The engine fired and ran well almost instantly.

 

We blew out the fuel line from the tank to the pump and when we determined that it was clear we slid a piece of 14" hose over the tank fitting and dunked it in a gas can.  I pressurized the gas can until gas flowed from the pump fitting and they we started the engine and let it run.

Once we added water, though, things went down hill.  Water leaked from several places we could see and several that we couldn't see.  Radiator work time!

We did keep the water level up so the engine could keep running and that was fun.  Eventually the smoke pouring out of the garage lessened.  I had squirted oil into each of the cylinders via the spark plug holes years ago so burning that off was to be expected.   We could also have some stuck rings but won't deal with that (if necessary) until the car is driveable.

At some point I also noticed that the fuel pump was dripping gas onto the ground so i guess a rebuild of that is also in the cards.  I have 3 or 4 fuel pumps including the one currently on the car.  I'll have to look into which one is correct for the car and rebuild that one if possible.  

 

I'm getting pretty close to uploading the first run video to youtube.  One bad thing about seeing yourself on video is that you can clearly see where all the beer you drink is going.

Edit on 9/12 to add a pic of the radiator.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Pete in PA (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

AC say some D2s had a type 425 and some had a type 587. More information needed.... this is from a 1952 book.

 

Back again. Earlier AC books say: the type 425 was a series B pump, AC number 1522237. Some D6s had a series B pump, AC # 1522995, which is shown as a type 428. The 428 was used on the D5 Standard and some D8s. I think the 587 in the later book is in error. There is another number qualifying as a type 425 and another number a 428.

 

I don't know how these two pumps differ. Presumably they had the same arm.

Edited September 10, 2019 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[Pete in PA]

Thanks for that info.  Is the type number stamped on the pump somewhere?