My official 1936 D2 sedan resurrection thread

[Spinneyhill]

If it is, it is stamped either on the boss at the top of the mounting flange or on the side of the flange. I am not sure about 152xxxx numbers; mine is 855xxx and 5xxx is stamped on the boss.

[Spinneyhill]

It should be a series B pump so the base should look like this, currently for sale on eBay. I don't know what the top shape will be. This one is a post war replacement - it has a very thick flange on the top of the base; early ones were thin and ribbed radially underneath.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[Pete in PA]

I looked at the 3 fuel pumps that I had handy.  Don't know anything about the one still on the car.  Seems like there's a story in here somewhere.

There's the one that was in an AC "New fuel pump" box.  The box is marked 587 and also 5591517.  The pump in the box is probably the pump replaced by the AC so the AC is probably the one on the car now.  The pump in the box has the thick flange you describe and that flange is stamped 1318 995.  No other markings at all.

Number 2 is in a box marked KEM X587B and "rebuilt with a new diaphragm."  The pump in that box is most interesting to me because I think it may be the original pump to my car.  It bears traces of silver paint a various embossings/stampings.  In the spot you mention appears 2995 or maybe Z995.  The pump body upper flange is thin and ribbed.  It is marked AC 855228 as shown and MODEL - B and 1522995. The pump arm is stamped 855377.

Number 3 was not in any box but I *think* it's probably the KEM rebuilt pump because it is stamped KEM REBUILT on the underside of the body flange.  It also has 587 stamped a couple of places and is embossed with AC and 855228.

 

Edited September 11, 2019 by Pete in PA (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

The 2995 pump would appear to have the right base with arm 855377. So that part is correct. If you look between the ribs you may find a faint raised cast circle with a number inside it and a series of tick marks around the inside of the circle. I think that was the casting date. I would expect to see "36" inside that circle if it were an original 1936 pump. This theory is based on observations of pumps around 1930 so may not still apply by 1936.

 

I'll go and look up the other numbers. The AC 587 box is interesting, clearly a type 587 replacement. Maybe this is where the number I quoted from the 1952 AC book came from. The part number 5591517 would have been issued in about 1950 or so. I have come across a pump with a number stamped under the top flange like that.

 

What is the number cast into the top on the 2995 pump? Mine is 855219 as you see here, just to the right of the finger tip. If the other pumps you have are correct, they will all have the same top. A generic top was made from early in the 1930s with the inlet like this and three outlets flanges - the mechanic fitting it drilled and tapped the one required.

[Spinneyhill]

Type 587 includes part nos. 1522995, 1539207, 1539574. The replacement for type 425 (1522237) is either 428 (1522995) or 587.

 

A page from a 1960 or so book indicates the 559xxxx numbers were issued after 1952, so that type 587 was a '50s or even '60s manufacture.

 

Just found the top. 1522237 had a 1523358 top cover. Is that cast onto it somewhere?

 

I can't see 1318995 in any of the books I have.

 

From where is your fuel pump dripping gas? The original castings were not very good and tend to warp over time, esp. if things are tightened a bit much. Warping can be fixed, gently, but not cold.

[Pete in PA]

I do remember seeing the circle with tic marks that you mention.  As my car was built on 11/26/35 the two digits in the center of that circle should be 35.  I'll revisit the garage tomorrow and snap a pic of that circle.  It was blurry.  I don't remember seeing anything on the top cover of the "original" pump.  If there were numbers I'd have mentioned them.  Maybe the "original" pump was modified by using parts from another pump.  I'll see tomorrow.

[jpage]

When I rebuilt my pump, I ordered a new replacement pump and robbed all the parts and diaphram so I could keep the original casting.

[Alan Cutler]

30 minutes ago, jpage said:

When I rebuilt my pump, I ordered a new replacement pump and robbed all the parts and diaphram so I could keep the original casting.

 

+1

[Pete in PA]

@ Spinneyhill:

 

I forgot to mention that I noticed the KEM brand pump box does list the 36 Dodge passenger car as an application for the X587B pump.  I found that interesting.  It seems that so many times there are minute differences between many OEM parts (as installed in the assembly plants) and they have different part numbers but that aftermarket suppliers combine multiple parts numbers into one offering.   You can put two different fuel pumps, carburetors, distributors or whatever side by side, take them apart, scrutinize the bits, and not find any discernible differences.  I'm sure that there *are* differences as shown in the engineering drawings but they make little to no difference when the part is in use.

[Pete in PA]

Swung by the garage to snap more pics of the fuel pumps.  As I suspected the "original" fuel pump has no numbers on the top surface.  I guess this means that i don't have *all* of the original pump -- just part of it.

I thought maybe the original top part had been swapped to the pump now on the engine but that's not the case.  As I originally thought, the pump from the AC box seems to be the one currently on the engine.  Can't see where it is leaking but it is leaking.  Note the blue RTV on the pump mounting gasket!  My gawd do I hate that stuff but it does date the pump installation era.  I've hated that stuff since it was first introduced.  Maybe because I saw so many ham-fisted mechanics use it to excess.  It was viewed as the magical cure-all for leaks.

[Spinneyhill]

It seems the type 587 is a post war replacement for the 425 and the 428 used on the D2 and other models.

 

I have a 5409 to put on the Dodge; the original was a 5471. The only difference is that the base has the top mounting screw holes in different positions. The 5471 is as above; it has a screw at the middle of the boss on which the number is stamped. The 5409 is the same except there is a screw at each end of that boss and not in the middle, so the top is slightly rotated when fitted.

 

That top you show is a generic, with two possible inlet directions and three possible outlets. The original would have one in and one outlet, as on the one I posted. I don't know what direction they would point, though.

 

If that last photo is on the car, it doesn't appear to be a series B pump. The shape underneath is a different series, without the removable base (which originally had 855228 cast in it).

[Pete in PA]

The last photo is of the pump currently on the car and I figured it is the pump that came from the AC box.  Who knows?  Like I said I think the collection of pumps that came with the vehicle could tell a story.   
I *am* kind of surprised that the "original* pump is a hodgepodge of parts old and new.  I wonder where the original top part went?  As I've said before a lot can happen in 80 years.

[ArticiferTom]

Pete an OEM will probability only have one in and out let .  The after market  units have multiples to adapt for various models . I have this extra 1935 date coded unit .  If it helps you , I will sell .

[Spinneyhill]

The 1521789 is a type 419. It takes the same arm as the type 425 and 428, so it would work on your D2. Note also the base is the same as the 5471, except for the arm - it has a screw above the middle of the stamped-number boss. I don't know how 855219 (the top) compares to yours; it may just be the one way valves. As you can see, Tom's pump has a domed outlet valve cover. Some had that dome cast into the top.

 

Well how about that. If you are feeling flush, here is one on ebay. This is a post war replacement part.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Made-In-The-USA-AC-Fuel-Pump-Type-428-Chrysler-DeSoto-Dodge-Plymouth-NOS-New/183951951737?epid=1723824934&hash=item2ad4640779:g:GiAAAOSwkDhdel2x&vxp=mtr

Edited September 13, 2019 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[Pete in PA]

I never would have guessed that there would be so many different fuel pump numbers/variations.  This 6 cylinder flathead was in use for decades, right?  I guess Mopar had to changes something to keep the engineers busy.

To further complicate the issue I made the mistake of looking at my 36-42 parts catalog.  It seems that two different fuel pumps were used during D2 production.  Engines up to #41265 used fuel pump 653530 while engines from #41266 up used pump 659488. (Note that my 1935 parts book shows that all DUs used pump 637415 (and that was a new number for 1935) so the 653530 pump used on early D2s was not a carryover from 1935.) (Further, I see that all D5s and early D8s also used the late D2/659488 pump.)  Well the engine in my car, a November 1935 build, is 41226 so it originally had the 653530 pump.

As for what that means as far as inlet/outlet configuration (or any other specs) well I have absolutely no idea. <scream>

 

I can't even guess at how the fuel line into the pump was originally routed since that pipe is loose and rattling around under the radiator while the pump-to-carb line is a home made copper tubing piece.

 

It's not even noon and I really need a beer.

 

 

Edited September 13, 2019 by Pete in PA (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

So your car fits in the first part of the D2 run, so it would have had AC type 425, AC part number 1522237. AC don't give the engine number for the change. At least the type 428 works, though, if you can't find a 425 and not many would know the difference! Probably, from above, the stamped number will be the only thing to show the difference.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

Any pictures in your books that show the engine? Any of them show the fuel pump? Here is one of a 1941 engine from allpar.com. The fuel pump looks to have a top like 855219 rather than the one on the new 1522995 one for sale on ebay.

[Pete in PA]

I'll have to look at my books for pictures but from experience I learned that mfgrs will use a photo for years if they can.  I wouldn't trust a 1936 publication to accurately depict the 1936 situation if an early pic was close enough.

To further complicate the fuel pump issue I should mention that starting with the D5 in 1937 Dodge buyers could opt for a fuel pump fitted with the vacuum booster pump for better wiper operation.  There's a whole 'nother set of part numbers for those pumps.  At least I don't have to deal with that issue.  Course it *would* mean better wiper operation.  Not that I intend to do any intentional rainy weather driving with my D2.

 

[1936 Plymouth]

Hello Pete,

 

Hope all is well and your auto tasks are treating you well!

 

You mentioned awhile back you have some 1936 Plymouth P1 parts, you wouldn't by chance have a good radiator. Just found out mine is completely plugged and cannot be fixed.

 

Cheers,

 

Todd

[Pete in PA]

Todd,

 

I did get an extra radiator when I bought my D2 and I'm sure it came from the same P1 that all the other P1 parts came from.  whether it's good or not I can't say and shipping it cross country to find out may not be the best idea.  I can tell you that it's heavy.  Also, I haven't yet determined if I can use the radiator to replace the leaking one in my D2.  Out of curiosity what's the p/n on your car's radiator?  It'll be embossed into the engine side of the top tank, RH side.

[jpage]

1936 Plymouth,

                    

                          If you are not too concerned with authenticity you may want to get a good radiator shop to replace the core with a modern tube type unit reusing your lower and upper tanks. The old honeycomb radiators cannot be rodded as there are no tubes. Even boiling may not open it up enough. Replacement honeycomb cores are available but at very high prices, if you can find anyone willing to do the work. You may find another original but who's to say it will be any better. Hope you find a solution.

[1936 Plymouth]

Hello Pete,

 

     Thank you for getting back to me. The part number on my tank is #652892. I did take it to an "old school" radiator repair guy that does all sorts of radiator repair and he said it is clogged and "he" couldn't repair it. And yes, it does weigh a ton!

 

Thanks for the thoughts,

 

Oh, and I did find a guy in N.Y. that I bought a new water pump, thermostat and housing from and he said I could send the radiator to him and he would repair it, but like you said, send it across country for him to then say it'll cost $$$$$$$$ does not sound like something I want to do.

[1936 Plymouth]

On 10/8/2019 at 3:12 PM, jpage said:

1936 Plymouth,

                    

                          If you are not too concerned with authenticity you may want to get a good radiator shop to replace the core with a modern tube type unit reusing your lower and upper tanks. The old honeycomb radiators cannot be rodded as there are no tubes. Even boiling may not open it up enough. Replacement honeycomb cores are available but at very high prices, if you can find anyone willing to do the work. You may find another original but who's to say it will be any better. Hope you find a solution.

 

Hello J. Page,

      I appreciate any and all suggestive help!!! As perhaps disheartening it may sound to some, at this time I am not concerned with maintaining 100% authenticity. This in part comes from the fact there are already things on the auto that have been changed, upgraded and / or replaced, most noted is it has a 1955 motor in it now. I do / will keep the authentic "look" as best I can, however my intentions at this point is making it a reliable driver I can take to car show / events.

      The radiator guy I took the take to, to my understanding has knowledge of old radiator repair (i.e. rodding and boiling) and he said to find a new one. I even second questioned him by asking, couldn't you cut the top off and clean it out and solder it back on, to here he just said (again), "find a new one".

      Now, all that being said, the radiator look GOOD, no holes, smashed fins or upper or lower tank damage, I know it can be saved, I just have to find the right guy and one that doesn't want to charge me a cost that is equivalent of what I paid for the entire auto :-)

 

Cheers,

[keiser31]

I still have this 1935 DB radiator for sale if you need it....it may be adaptable to fit your car....

[keiser31]

It needs the side support brackets. The number....634249.

Edited October 10, 2019 by keiser31 (see edit history)

[jpage]

7 hours ago, 1936 Plymouth said:

 

Hello J. Page,

      I appreciate any and all suggestive help!!! As perhaps disheartening it may sound to some, at this time I am not concerned with maintaining 100% authenticity. This in part comes from the fact there are already things on the auto that have been changed, upgraded and / or replaced, most noted is it has a 1955 motor in it now. I do / will keep the authentic "look" as best I can, however my intentions at this point is making it a reliable driver I can take to car show / events.

      The radiator guy I took the take to, to my understanding has knowledge of old radiator repair (i.e. rodding and boiling) and he said to find a new one. I even second questioned him by asking, couldn't you cut the top off and clean it out and solder it back on, to here he just said (again), "find a new one".

      Now, all that being said, the radiator look GOOD, no holes, smashed fins or upper or lower tank damage, I know it can be saved, I just have to find the right guy and one that doesn't want to charge me a cost that is equivalent of what I paid for the entire auto :-)

 

Cheers,

To my knowledge, once those old honeycomb cores are clogged or damaged, they must be replaced. A new core could cost upwards of $1000 plus shipping .  If all you want is a good driver then I would just replace it with a modern core and that shouldn't be to difficult for a good radiator guy. Just have to use the old parts. I have an extra from my '36 Dodge and another has the top tank removed already. Both have good tanks and outlet tubes. The one with the tank off looks to be in the same shape as yours, no idea of the other.

[Pete in PA]

Here's my post from another thread back in early September where the guy was looking for a radiator for his 1924 DB and I followed the suggestions.
 

"I was interested in this thread because my 36 Dodge is going to need some radiator work (or maybe a new radiator).  I called Harry Heitin iAuto and spoke with Scott, the longtime owner of that firm.  (He bought the business from Harry Heitin many years ago.)  He warned me that a honeycomb core radiator (Which I think my car has) would be very expensive because there's only one supplier of honeycomb cores and they're in the UK.  How expensive, I wondered.  Well Scott's best guess was $2500 for a completely restored radiator.  Yikes!  That's not gonna happen.

Scott cautioned me that a lot of imported copper/brass radiators have problems because inlet/outlet fittings are not swaged to the tanks.  IOW there's no good mechanical connection; the solder is the load bearing part and that doesn't last long.  Something else for me to worry about...

 

Because I browsed the Brassworks site and saw that I could get a new D2 radiator for about $900.  Wonder where that's made?  Time for more phone calls."

[Pete in PA]

I was at The Dodge Garage yesterday and looked at the spare radiator.  It is marked 652896M.  I don't have a 36 Plymouth parts manual but, based on my experience with D2 parts manuals, I probably wouldn't find that number anywhere in the manual even if it was originally installed in a 36 Plymouth.  Very frustrating!

[vette-kid]

In for the follow!  36 P2 owner here.  And your servant right, the Plymouth manual leaves a lot to be desired.  But if I can remember, I'll check for a radiator part number for you.

[Pete in PA]

Has it really been 5 months since I advanced this thread???  Hard to believe.

Yesterday my son and I went to the Dodge Garage and removed the radiator from the car.  This was not a trivial task (as many of you probably know).  It was very obvious that the radiator had been out before for repairs and that it had not been properly reinstalled.

First of all the rods between the cowl and the radiator were bent.  Not at their midpoint where I think they're *supposed to be* bent but bent at the cowl bracket.  Not badly, but that will need to be addressed.

More importantly the radiator did not seem to be properly mounted in the grill shell.  There are some adjustable screw-pads on the grill shell down near the bottom and they come nowhere near to touching the radiator.  Seems odd.  Are there supposed to be rubber pads on those steel pads so stabilize the radiator?  If so I don't see them in the parts book.

The cooling system is a disaster.  Rust, rust, and more rust.  The water distribution tube is seriously deteriorated and will have to be replaced.  The problem is that it's so deteriorated that a slide hammer and hook will rip the end off and i'll never get it out.  Time for a plan.

I'll buy a few gallons of Evaporust on Amazon and set up an aquarium pump to circulate the stuff though the block.  After maybe a week of that I'll take another look and decide how i want to remove that tube.

The ell-shaped metal pipe between the water pump and the radiator lower fitting is rusted (everything is rusted) and someone sweated-in a pipe nipple to serve as a heater core fitting.  Do I need to retain this or should I use an unmodified metal pipe and tap into the water pump.  It seems like there's a plugged fitting there...

So far I'd say that the worst part of this car are 1) the floors and 2) the cooling system.  Pics later.

[Uptowndodge]

On 10/10/2019 at 8:41 AM, 1936 Plymouth said:

Hello Pete,

 

     Thank you for getting back to me. The part number on my tank is #652892. I did take it to an "old school" radiator repair guy that does all sorts of radiator repair and he said it is clogged and "he" couldn't repair it. And yes, it does weigh a ton!

 

Thanks for the thoughts,

 

Oh, and I did find a guy in N.Y. that I bought a new water pump, thermostat and housing from and he said I could send the radiator to him and he would repair it, but like you said, send it across country for him to then say it'll cost $$$$$$$$ does not sound like something I want to do.

Haven’t you guys ever shipped greyhound I had two front fenders shipped from N.Y.  to Cali for a whopping $115 so when I hear It’s to big or heavy, the next thing they say is there’s no greyhound around. I think if there’s a will, there’s a way..

[jpage]

Hi Pete,

 There is supposed to be rubber pads on those radiator adj. screws. I just got some rubber caps and put the on mine. They help keep the rad. from sideways movement and act as a buffer. You can eliminate that heater nipple on the pipe if you are not going to use a heater. I decided not to reinstall mine. That distribution tube could give you some fits. I would try making a strong hook long enough to reach as far back as you can to try to get a good hold on it. You might be able to get the larger portion out. Good luck!

[36 D2 Coupe]

I agree with jpage regarding the side pads. I discovered them when I took out my radiator which, like many above, is not salvageable. Even the tanks are split with age and stress cracks. I had no idea, as it LOOKED fine. So the search is on for useable parts.

Regarding the water distribution tube, I was fortunate enough to find that the one in my engine is brass. However I had purchased a couple before my engine rebuild. PLEASE be aware that the tube you get is for the correct length of block. The ones I bought are for the long  (25") block and do not fit my short (23.5") block. If you need the longer tube, I have one for you very reasonable.

[Pete in PA]

3 hours ago, 36 D2 Coupe said:

I agree with jpage regarding the side pads. I discovered them when I took out my radiator which, like many above, is not salvageable. Even the tanks are split with age and stress cracks. I had no idea, as it LOOKED fine. So the search is on for useable parts.

Regarding the water distribution tube, I was fortunate enough to find that the one in my engine is brass. However I had purchased a couple before my engine rebuild. PLEASE be aware that the tube you get is for the correct length of block. The ones I bought are for the long  (25") block and do not fit my short (23.5") block. If you need the longer tube, I have one for you very reasonable.

Jim, thanks for your thoughts and offer.  The tube in my engine is definitely made of steel and it has rusted severely.  Getting it out will be a joy, no doubt.  As the engine in my car is the original one, it has to be the shorter block used with the 218 cid, right?  In any event I won't buy a new tube until I get the old one (or what's left of it) out.

[Pete in PA]

Does anyone know if the pin in the engine hand crank is replaceable?  That pin is missing from the crank that came with my car.  Actually, it seems to have been broken eons ago and replaced with a beheaded capscrew which was then sheared off.  
I'm thinking that a large roll pin could be used.
The Chrysler parts book does not list that pin as a serviceable part.  Then again the parts book shows only a 2-piece hand crank assembly which is not what I found under my car's seat.
What did other D2 owners find under their car's seat?

[36 D2 Coupe]

Your crank looks just like mine and I think it's correct.. To replace the pin, would a grade 8 bolt of the proper diameter work? Would it be hard enough?

I notice you have the correct long necked bumper jack as well.  Nice to see how it is held in place with a strap. However it ii pretty unstable to use when lifting on a bumper arm. Also you have to lift really high to let the suspension drop before you get the wheel off the ground. Better to have an axle jack (which is also correct) and wheel chocks for that job.

Edited March 17, 2020 by 36 D2 Coupe (see edit history)

[Pete in PA]

36 D2 Coupe, thanks for that.  This is my first *really* old car and I'm out of my element (mid-60s big Chryslers).  I think the roll pin idea is better.  The pin should be soft and easily replaceable.  Or at least more easily replaceable than my forearm!

 

[Pete in PA]

A few pics from my adventures last weekend:

[Pete in PA]

Let's try again:

[36 D2 Coupe]

Hi Pete

Just a question - my crank has a part number on it - 598306 - do you have a number on yours? I tried to find this number in the parts books without success. Maybe they didn't list tool part numbers. The number is near the bend on the long shaft on mine.