Chase392 Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 Hey guys, I have an antique engine (20's) that has a cast aluminum oil pan that has a small crack in it, the engine is rare enough a replacement would be difficult, if not impossible to locate. Are there any reputable companies out there that could repair it? I know enough about early aluminum alloys and castings to not even attempt to repair it myself or find a local guy that "welds aluminum". Thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 Where are you located? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 My aluminum guy (passed on now) hated old aluminum, especially if it was oil or coolant related. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 It will probably be slightly porous and impregnated with oil. Very difficult to weld. It will also have some surface treatment to prevent corrosion because Al is at the top of the galvanic series beside zinc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 When I worked at White Post Restorations, there was an early aluminum crankcase that needed to be welded. The thing was crated and sent off to a mysterious place to be "vacuum degreased". Put in a chamber, under a vacuum, and the oil seeped out of the pores in the aluminum. That's the problem....aluminum, as mentioned, is porous, and oil saturates it.....I asked Big Al, the metal guy at the time, about this very thing, and he demonstrated with a scrap piece of another aluminum crankcase....as you heated it to weld, the oil bubbled to the surface, and seemed to never stop. I wish I knew now who does "vacuum degreasing"....I've never since found a company that does it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chase392 Posted October 26, 2016 Author Share Posted October 26, 2016 14 hours ago, Restorer32 said: Where are you located? I'm in Houston... but to get it fixed properly... I have no issues building a crate to hold this 4 plus foot long monster of an oil pan and shipping it. Of course I have to build a gigantic engine stand first before I can get the pan off.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Schramm Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 (edited) I just had the aluminum cast oil pan welded from an exit hole for parts of a broken rod on my truck this summer. The guy that did it did a great job. He is located north of Detroit. If you want more information, pm me. Added picture of pan. Here is a picture of the weld repair for the pan on my truck. There was a hole that was about 1.5 inches by three inches long. No parts to weld to. This was done free hand. Edited January 17, 2017 by Larry Schramm (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chase392 Posted November 6, 2016 Author Share Posted November 6, 2016 Today I had a chance to do a little poking around on my engine, The crankcase (and I'm guessing the oil pan too) is a Lynite casting.... which I had never heard of. So did an internet search to learn a little bit about it... now I'm sure I need find an expert. I'm sure I can send it to the shop that fixed the engine for the Marmon Wasp... and hope the repair doesn't cost as much as my whole project. Does anybody have experience with this company? http://castmetalwelding.com/Automotive_Engine.html I've been surfing the web trying to places that specialize in old aluminum welding. I've found places that do work on Harley and Indian engines... I'm not sure if they'd want to take on a 4.5 ft Seagrave oil pan..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted November 6, 2016 Share Posted November 6, 2016 Depending how bad the crack is, I wonder if it could be stitched together with screw in plugs they way they do cast iron? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLYER15015 Posted November 6, 2016 Share Posted November 6, 2016 Chase, Since you are in Houston, (land of many foundries) get the chemistry of your casting material, "Lynite" and do as much research on this alloy as you can. Then and only then contact a specialty aluminum foundry in the Houston / Dallas area and ask them to do your welding. They repair their own castings very often. And yes Vacuum degreasing is absolutely required as well as a good preheat cycle IN AN OVEN by folks who know what they are doing. Bottom line is that you cannot just slap a tig weld on those old aluminum cast parts as the chemistry is very different than what is used today. Mike in Colorado Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chase392 Posted November 13, 2016 Author Share Posted November 13, 2016 On 11/6/2016 at 1:11 PM, Rusty_OToole said: Depending how bad the crack is, I wonder if it could be stitched together with screw in plugs they way they do cast iron? Unfortunately the crack is on a curved section of the sump... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Schramm Posted November 13, 2016 Share Posted November 13, 2016 (edited) So was the exit hole for my rod pieces. It went out through the side of the pan in the rod dip area. If I can find pictures I will post them. My guy if Flint did an EXCELLENT job. Edited January 17, 2017 by Larry Schramm (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chase392 Posted November 14, 2016 Author Share Posted November 14, 2016 2 hours ago, Larry Schramm said: So was the exit hole for my rod pieces. It went out through the side of the pan in the rod dip area. If I can find pictures I will post them. My guy if Flint did an EXCELLENT job. Hello Larry, I haven't forgotten about calling you, I will definitely call you to get the contact info on your aluminum guy. My better half kept me busy this weekend on other projects. To be honest, I still don't know the full extent of the crack as the engine is still on the trailer..... I'm building chain hoist/ trolley system in my garage so I can move this gigantic T-head around. My engine hoist can pick it up... but then I wouldn't be able to set it down.... The first time my father saw the engine, he jokingly said "You're gonna need bigger tools..." How right he was Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Schramm Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 Hey Chase, Call me and if you would like a visitor, I would enjoy coming over this week. Then you could also come over and see the repair on my truck pan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chase392 Posted November 27, 2016 Author Share Posted November 27, 2016 On 11/13/2016 at 7:27 PM, Larry Schramm said: Hey Chase, Call me and if you would like a visitor, I would enjoy coming over this week. Then you could also come over and see the repair on my truck pan. Hey Larry, I certainly wouldn't mind a vistor, but I think the Detroit to Houston drive will be a little rough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Schramm Posted November 27, 2016 Share Posted November 27, 2016 I travel enough that you never know where I might be on a given day or week. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 (edited) Vacuum degreasing... try Impco in East Providence, RI. As of two years ago, they were advertising they did it and specifically mentioned doing it for engine rebuilders. Their real stock in trade is a process that impregnates aluminum castings with a special resin, thereby removing all porosity. I had them do a RR PI aluminum head years ago and I will be taking the crankcase of my 1910 Mitchell there when all the machining is done. They call the process Vapor Degreasing... Edited November 28, 2016 by JV Puleo (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chase392 Posted November 28, 2016 Author Share Posted November 28, 2016 (edited) I wanted to take the time to thank all of you that have replied, While I weigh my options and do more research, I thought I'd post a decent pic of the crack. Note the engine isn't really resting on the block of wood below the oil pan, I tapped that in there after the crack appeared in the pan in frantic attempt to limit the damage. Note the the crack is pointing towards the fitting... I think it was a combination of an antique casting, and over-tightened fitting (probably 80 years ago) and the terrible condition of the highways I had to drive on that did the pan in.... expensive lesson learned. Edited November 28, 2016 by Chase392 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted November 28, 2016 Share Posted November 28, 2016 (edited) I would have it metal stitched – then vapor degreased and impregnated with resin. If you try welding and it doesn't work, you'll probably have a sump that is absolutely unrepairable. Edited November 28, 2016 by JV Puleo (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidAU Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 Without seeing it up close it looks like if you tried to stitch it, it may open the crack up further. Having tried to weld various old aluminium engine parts at times I know that that can be nearly impossible depending on the composition of the original material and how much junk it has in it. Sometimes it goes easy, most times not. I think I would look at getting it as clean as possible then deep veeing the crack on the inside of the sump. I would make up fish plates from 3/16 or 1/4 aluminium to fit on all the areas inside the sump that are reasonable flat and even bending the plates to suit where possible and then drilling and tapping them from the inside out so the thread is in the sump material and where possible keeping the holes at least 3/4 inch away from the crack. For the fixings I would use something like button head, stainless steel, 1/4 inch UNF thread and plenty of them. I would then fill the crack and smear the back of the fish plates with aluminium high temperature epoxy and screw them into place before the epoxy sets. On the corners etc. where you cannot fit plates I would apply a liberal coating of epoxy. After the epoxy has hardened you can sand off the threads protruding out of the sump, slightly vee the crack on the outside and fill with epoxy to remove the crack, sand it all flush and paint with alloy coloured silver paint. This is one supplier of aluminium epoxy (durabond 7025) but there are others as well. http://www.cotronics.com/vo/cotr/rm_putties.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Schramm Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 Looks minor to the problem with my oil pan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 Would take an enormous amount of time to stitch a crack that long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Shaw Posted November 30, 2016 Share Posted November 30, 2016 (edited) Chase, IMO, the crack is not in an area where heat or pressure would require welding. I would first try sealing it with the epoxy as DavidAU suggested without the fish plates. Provided the crack does not continue to the mounting flange, you should use a flat washer to extend the area under the force if the mounting bolt to reduce the point stress. Edited November 30, 2016 by Mark Shaw (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Schramm Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 Added pictures above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 (edited) Oddly enough, I've just been looking into this problem regarding an aluminum water pump I am making. If you google a company called Muggyweld or Muggy Weld (I'm not sure of the spelling) they sell a variety of specialist welding, brazing and soldering specialty alloys specifically for jobs like this. The materials are not inexpensive, but I think may be perfectly suited to this problem. I'm certain you'll have to send it out for vapor degreasing because the porous aluminum has to be saturated with oil but having done that, I suspect the repair itself might be rather easy. I've never used their products but I am familiar with a complicated repair job done by a colleague who swears by them... jp Edited January 17, 2017 by JV Puleo (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalowed Bill Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Several years ago I had a 1937 Studebaker President, Lynite cast, straight eight, cylinder head welded. I used a highly recommended local expatiate Russian, who expressed no concerns about doing the job. The job was completed, reasonably priced and done in a timely manner. He was able to pressure test it to over 100 lbs/sq." I've gone back and forth on the merits of using the original alloy head or using a somewhat later iron head. Parts for these engines are very, very scarce, boarding on nonexistent. I don't want to have this head fail and have to redo this thing. I asked this on the Studebaker portion of the forum and got a few responses. I thought I would throw it out here in hopes that any opinions expressed might help the questioner and maybe others. The car is a quite rare 1937 President coupe, which I have owned for twenty five years and will likely be my last restoration. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLYER15015 Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 Chase, When you say that your pan is a "Lynite" casting, which derivative is it ? 109, 112,121, or 145 They all had specific uses. Your pan is most likely 112, as it was the most common, and ANY good sand foundry repair welder can weld that crack. It must be clean, and I mean really clean. Do a little preheat with a torch and tig weld it just like you would do with 356 cast aluminum. NOT A BIG DEAL......... We weld up imperfections in the NASCAR transmissions we cast all the time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chase392 Posted February 1, 2017 Author Share Posted February 1, 2017 1 hour ago, FLYER15015 said: Chase, When you say that your pan is a "Lynite" casting, which derivative is it ? 109, 112,121, or 145 They all had specific uses. To be honest... I have no idea. I had never of heard of Lynite until I cleaned the grime off of the logo cast into the crankcase. My oil pan is kinda on the back burner until I can get my engine stand built... so I can remove it and survey the damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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