Restoration project

[Guest Alan974]

Hello

I'm new to the community and i'm inquiring about a restoration project on a vintage car. I dont have a lot of money but i can invest somewhat...i am looking for some insights and advices mostly and common mistakes not to make.

Thanks.

 

 

[keiser31]

 Are you looking for opinions on what to but or do you have a car, already? If you have a car/vehicle, what is it?

#1. Do NOT disassemble the vehicle without tagging and bagging each part, no matter the condition as you may need it later for a pattern.

#2. Take more photos than you need. You WILL need them later for assembly.

 

[Guest Alan974]

Thanks for your reply!

Actually i do not have a vehicle yet ideally i would like to restore a 1969 dodge charger or 1970 gran torino...i'm not sure if it is at all possible or i'm being really enthusiastic!?

[keiser31]

Anything is possible with the right attitude, money and time. Since some Chargers also wore muscle car parts, you will be paying up for those items. The Gran Torinos may be tough to find, but are probably a less expensive vehicle to restore. It all really depends on the condition that you buy the car in, the amount of storage, money and ambition that you have. I am always broke, so I have been "restoring" one of my 1931 Dodge coupes for 50 years.

[keiser31]

Oh....I forgot the main thing. SKILLS. Do you have wrenching skills and have you any knowledge of mechanics?

[keiser31]

A car of that era may be a little too much to handle for a first timer. There are a LOT of little systems and parts to go with them. The earlier cars....1920s to 1950s do not have a lot of those problem units.

Edited August 21, 2016 by keiser31 (see edit history)

[Guest Alan974]

Yes that's the main thing i'm scared about i have basic mechanic knowledge but i am planning to actually learn and have someone teach me so i can perform the best job possible!...wow 50 years! That's a long time!...but hey i'm not putting a time frame on it...i just want to do the job and get to know my project along the way!

Thanks for all your insights i do appreciate it....it is hard to find car bodies though unless i am not looking at the right place!

[Rusty_OToole]

If you want a Dodge Charger or Gran Torino go and buy the best unrestored low mile original. Don't try shopping for a bargain, just buy the best one you can find. This is ALWAYS easier and cheaper and faster, than trying to fix up some beat up klunker.

 

Budget $2000  or so to put the car in perfect condition. You may not need all of it, but just tires, battery, shocks, brakes, and an alignment  can add up to more than you think.

 

 

Edited August 21, 2016 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[Guest Alan974]

I see...thanks for the info!

I am in the new yor area and was looking to see if they have those classic car dealership that you could also buy the car thru a credit but couldnt really find anything....

[Mark Gregory]

Alan974 here is a good thread that was on the Forum . Everyone who is restoring a car can relate to this . I can not paste the link but here is the Title .  How long have you been restoring your car ?

[Guest Alan974]

Thank you.

[Guest GT52]

3 hours ago, Alan974 said:

...1970 gran torino...

If you are looking for a '70 model Ford intermediate, that would be a "Torino".  If you are looking for a "Gran Torino", that would be '72 or later...think Starsky and Hutch, or the movie Gran Torino.  The two are completely different cars.  Some of the '70-71 Torinos definitely qualify as muscle cars and can get fairly pricey.  The '72 and on Gran Torinos are a bit short on muscle and can be bought more reasonably.

[Guest Alan974]

Ok thanks...what would you call reasonably?? I am looking online on different website and cant seem to really find just the body frame... i do  find used ones for more than 20.000 and up...but that doesnt require me to do much work to it really so it defeats the purpose...you know what i mean?

[Buffalowed Bill]

For the first restoration buy the best car that you can afford. Try to do the best job that you can to evaluate each mechanical system, structural, cosmetic,  and interior feature, so that you know what you will need to do. Most importantly do not tear the whole car apart! Work on one component at a time, In fact the process  is referred to as a "component restoration." This is the best way to keep from falling into the trap of creating  the dreaded "basket case." More often then not a basket case turns into a parts car.

[Guest Alan974]

I see...very insightful... thank you.

[Guest Alan974]

Something i am concerned about also is what if i get the car starts the renovation and then can't get some of the parts??...what then??...or is there such thing as the part doesnt exist anymore? (Forgive the silly question but i really am trying to be well equiped before i engage myself in this adventure!).

[padgett]

Not for the cars you are talking about, may not be original parts but are functional. Key is to never take anything apart before you have the parts to put back together.

 

Second thing is unless you are a skilled metal crafter and body man, find a car with no rust. May not exist where you are but are plenty in other parts of the country.

 

Next decide what you want then learn everything there is to know about that car (including service manuals, parts books, and vendor catalogs) before looking for the car itself.

 

Best is to buy a rust-free, good running car you can drive and enjoy while deciding what you want to "restore".

 

ps if you intend to build a show car, be aware that there are judges who know what month spark plug wires stopped being embossed and switched to silk screening. They will take points off for the wrong ones. Be sure you really want to go that way before diving off the deep end.

[Guest Alan974]

Ok great sounds about right! Thank you...it is just my personal enjoyment not for show..so im not rushing anything...thanks again i think i have all the information i need.

[cahartley]

No matter what car you buy make sure the frame is sound and the body is good.

That last thing you want to get involved with is body work unless you can do it yourself.

Wrenching and parts changing is one thing......body work is a whole 'nother ball game and an expensive one........ 

[Mark Gregory]

If you do buy a Vintage Ford product . There is  Special Interest Cars in Oakville , Ontario , Canada 905 844 8063 that has a huge Ford inventory . They do not have a website . 

[Rusty_OToole]

The most desirable, big engine, high performance models of those cars will be very expensive. The more ordinary models with small block V8 and without the performance accessories, are much more reasonable in price. You may be able to find a good example for $15000 - $20000. I say that after a few minutes searching for ads, if you do some research you will soon get an idea what they are worth.

 

The cars you name are considered "late model" around here, and are popular or common models from their day. Parts should be easy to get at least when you are talking about brakes, steering, tune up, in fact all service and repair parts normally needed. The parts that are hard to get, will be body and interior parts like chrome trim, body panels, upholstery, things like that. This is why it pays to get a car that is in good shape to begin with. Even a paint job can be very expensive, like $5000 and up NOT including bodywork.

[Guest Alan974]

Ok...i get the idea thank you all for your replies...you guys are making this much easier!!!!...i will keep you posted along the process i actually found good models on oldcars.com and very reasonable prices.

[R Walling]

 Some points to consider,

 

 Do not buy a car with a fresh paint job!  It is probably full of bondo over rust.

 

 If you buy a rusted car, don't chose one that has small rust spots or blisters over one with large holes if there is a big difference in price,

 Large holes usually cost about the same to repair as small holes.

 

 Don't buy all new chrome or tires until the car is almost ready for the road.

 

Interiors are expensive, look for a good one.

 

 Unless the car is a very good driver, don't expect to repair it while you drive it. Major repairs take months.

 

 If your budget  is low, a standard transmission costs much less to repair, and you can usually "baby" a standard a long time before it stops working, unlike an automatic.

 

 Set your budget...  and then triple it for unexpected expenses.

 

 

[John_S_in_Penna]

10 hours ago, Alan974 said:

Ok thanks...what would you call reasonably?? I am looking online on different website... .I do  find used ones for more than 20.000 and up...

 

Alan, don't be deterred by high asking prices.

For some reason, ASKING prices of collectible cars

(from many dealers, and the occasional optimistic private party)

can be far above a car's value--even double what a car is worth.

To start, look at a good price guide, such as internet-based

www.hagerty.com and www.nada.com.  (The latter tends to be high.)

Old Cars Report Price Guide, available on newsstands bi-monthly,

is probably the most widely used guide;  I like their annual book:

 

http://www.krausebooks.com/2017-collector-car-price-guide

 

Hobbyists collect and restore cars for fun.  It ALWAYS costs

substantially more to restore a car than it will be worth when you're done.

For your first try, start with a simpler project.  You'll be able

to see the end, and you'll have a much more realistic chance of finishing it.

That's why people are suggesting you get a decent one to start--

maybe one that needs repainting and limited mechanical rebuilding.

In a few years, after you've gained experience, tackle something harder.

 

People enjoy the experience, the knowledge they acquire, the friendships they make,

and the end result that they get to drive.  You will, too!   

[Xander Wildeisen]

There are reasons to build a car, and there are reasons to buy a car. If you are looking to build/restore a car, you have to understand the amount of work and money that goes into the project. Talking to any good restoration/custom shop would be a good place to start. Knowing the cost involved, knowing what to expect for the money spent, knowing the time frame needed to complete the project. Are all things you want to think about if you are looking at building/restoring a car. For a first time classic car owner, stepping in to a full blown restoration/build project is taking on a lot. If you have the space, tools, money, skill and knowledge. It can be a lot of fun to take a car and bring it back to life. But if you jump in thinking it is like what you see on TV, meaning when we come back from commercial we will have this car painted. You are in for a shocker. Looking to the open market, for a  running and driving car that needs some improvements. Or one that you can ad your own personal touches on. Would be the best direction to go if you do not have the skills and things listed above. There are a lot of good dealers, that spend a lot of time finding good cars and bring them to the market place. The cars that you have listed that you are interested in should be easy to find on the open market from dealers and private sellers. the 69 Charger prices will be all over the board. Depending on options,factory tags, condition, numbers matching and so on. If just looking for a driver non numbers cars, you should be able to find a good car in a good price range. The 70 Torino would be a harder car to find then the Chargers, but should have a better buy in price. But would also have less reproduced parts then the Chargers. And on the flip side, if you go to sell the car down the road. The Charger will have a better resale price and a bigger market of interested buyers. Give it a lot of thought.  You are always better off spending a little more money for one in nicer shape.

[39BuickEight]

Auctions are a good place to look around and learn, if not actually buy a car.  There are some pretty nice cars that are very reasonable.

[John_S_in_Penna]

Alan, if you told us the price range for your purchase,

and your location, we might tailor our advice better for you.

No need, for example, to suggest a $10,000 car in Arizona

if you are in Delaware and want to spend $3000!

[Guest GT52]

13 hours ago, Alan974 said:

Ok thanks...what would you call reasonably?? I am looking online on different website and cant seem to really find just the body frame... i do  find used ones for more than 20.000 and up...but that doesnt require me to do much work to it really so it defeats the purpose...you know what i mean?

You can find a variety of sold examples by searching the "sold" listings on Ebay.  You can also get a great idea of pricing relative to particular models/options by searching on the NADA.com site.  I would expect that you could get decent running/driving examples of either car in the $10-12 range, so long as you're not looking for one of the muscle models.  As others have said, it will always cost more to restore one than it will to just buy one very close to what you actually want.  Let someone else lose the money and do the work for free.  There'll always be plenty of things to work on with an older car. 

[JACK M]

Alan, you mentioned credit (financing)

I do some part time work for a major international dealer.

I am good friends with the head guy.

Here is his take, he has 1.9% financing available and feels that what he calls investment cars appreciate faster than 1.9% so its like putting money in the bank with a better return than a bank can offer.

I think some of his asking prices are a bit high but I'm no expert on the values of most cars. So with that in mind don't be afraid to make an offer, you may get lucky.

He has access to several major collections that the owners are slowly liquidating as well as a pretty big inventory of vehicles that the dealership owns.

If you have a car in mind he can probably find it.

He has at least one Charger that I know of and probably has access to others.

Take a look and if you want his personal phone number I will supply it thru a PM. If you call the numbers on the site you will get one of his salesmen and none of them seem to know much as far as I can tell.

 

www.americanclassicsandhotrods.com

[keiser31]

Posting this for Mark Gregory for you....

 

[Guest Grumpy's Auto Shop]

10 hours ago, GT52 said:

You can find a variety of sold examples by searching the "sold" listings on Ebay.  You can also get a great idea of pricing relative to particular models/options by searching on the NADA.com site.  I would expect that you could get decent running/driving examples of either car in the $10-12 range, so long as you're not looking for one of the muscle models.  As others have said, it will always cost more to restore one than it will to just buy one very close to what you actually want.  Let someone else lose the money and do the work for free.  There'll always be plenty of things to work on with an older car. 

On that note I would add that this is a good way to find the difference between 'asking' and 'getting', which is an important distinction to make.

[Guest Grumpy's Auto Shop]

With all the great advice given above, I want to toss this into the mix:

Sometimes there are variant models which can be had for less.  One such example might be a Montego or an Elite. 
Such models are probably even more rare and difficult to find, but take a lower cost to get into.  And they're not going to get less rare, so there is potential future appreciation to be seen.

 

Related to this is that for a while '57 Bel Airs were THE car to get.  Esp. if you could get a 2D HardTop.  Fact is though, those are pretty much all gone now and guys who wanted to do one are now settling for 4D Sedans because these are the only 'barn finds' still out there. Right now these variants don't bring the same value but as years go by...  We shall see.  My bet is that the numbers will go up.  FInd a 1967 M100 Pickup, fix it right and report back to me.

 

Another thing is that there really is no definition of 'restored'.  I have seen far too many 'restored' cars that frankly were an amalgam of stupid and cheap decisions and cut corners made by both Previous Owners and Mechanics over a number of years.  These shortcuts are often nearly impossible to locate without embarking on a new restoration by disassembly and examination.  My personal opinion is that a restoration entails putting the entire car back to as close to as-built as can be accomplished within the limits of what parts can be gotten and/or reproduced.  Anything else is just 'reconditioning' IMO.

 

The above is probably a subject unto itself but I think it is pertinent to this thread.

 

[padgett]

Correct 55-57 Chevs are mostly gone but are the same BOPs that are just as interesting but not appreciating as much. The senior lines often had better care taken of them.

 

Agree about restorations which why most of mine are resto-mods (been doing that for longer than the term existed).

 

Also agree about POs, most of my work on the GTP has been returning it to stock configuration, then modifying that.

 

Of course my opinions are screwed by having worked at GM (am a GMI grad) and knowing what the engineers were doing on the side when the cars were new. Even garbage trucks were hot-rodded.