Two Stroke Oil

[Guest Al Brass]

Does anybody run two stroke oil to the gas in old engines?  I have done it since we lost lead and I am wondering, if you do, what mix ratio you use?

 

Regards

Al 

[ted sweet]

to accomplish what?

[Guest Al Brass]

Lubrication of valve guides, cylinder walls and help valve seats.

 

Al

[Curti]

to accomplish what?

Fowell the plugs.

[supersix]

Wouldn't it just burn-up with the gasoline?

[Guest Bob Call]

The only result I can see is that in the right quanity it will lower the octane of the gasoline.

[Curti]

Wouldn't it just burn-up with the gasoline?

My 4 cycle log splitter ran out of gas one time and I was too lazy to go back and get gas , so I put 100-1 Amzoil 2 cycle chain saw mix in the tank. The engine started OK, but after 10-15 minutes it quit, and would not restart. The plug was fouled solid. 

[JACK M]

My 4 cycle log splitter ran out of gas one time and I was too lazy to go back and get gas , so I put 100-1 Amzoil 2 cycle chain saw mix in the tank. The engine started OK, but after 10-15 minutes it quit, and would not restart. The plug was fouled solid. 

 

 

Not much of a plug for Amsoil which always touts itself for being the best. (it isn't)

I was in the boat business in my past life and often used mixed gas in my cars and trucks with no problems.

And you maybe onto something as far as rings and cylinder walls, cant tell about valves as 2 cycle outboards don't have them as we know them. (reed valves)

 

There is a HUGE difference in the quality of brands of mixing oils. Many times a guy would refuse to use my recommendations about the mixing oil.

I could plug a shop tank on his motor and could hear it clear up in just a few minutes.

I once had a hot heat that threatened to sue me, bad mouth me and run me out of business as he and his hot date had to be towed in after I tuned him up. I promised him that if he came directly over I would take a look. When I saw a Texaco oil bottle in his boat I showed him how it would run on my gas mix. Boy did he turn red.

Its the guys that know more than the professionals that are screwing themselves.

[Curti]

In my opinion Amzoil is the best. I have an early 80's Stihl chainsaw that has had a 100% diet of Amzoil, and if it were a car it would have 300,000  on it. The compression is as good as ever.

 The splitter fired right up when I changed the plug.  I would never be inclined to put 2 cycle oil in the gas tank of any car I own.  A waist of money. 

[Guest Al Brass]

I use Valvoline 2T semi synthetic oil (racing/extreme service) and a ratio of 40 - 1.  I have never fouled a plug and there is no sign of smoke or any other negative effect.  In both my '15 Buick and '14 Hupmobile, neither get any mist of oil from the crankcase to the guides so an oil-to-fuel additive can only be beneficial.  I believe it works well for me but the purpose of this post is to establish a mixing ratio, not argue the benefits.  I have already established that.  Here in New Zealand we tend to motor our old cars, maybe more so than elsewhere.  When lead was removed in the early 90's there we a number of additives introduced to aid old engines.  Two stroke oil was suggested as proven alternative to the many snake oils that were being touted and so adding it to old car fuel is not unusual. 

 

Regards

Al

[JACK M]

I can only suggest that one uses the recommended mixing oil.

I use the oil from the Stihl dealer in my chainsaw, as an Evinrude should use oil from an Evinrude dealer.

There are huge differences in lubricating demands between these two stroke engines.

Think about it, a chainsaw runs relatively ho as it is air cooled and gets used hard. On the other hand an out board motor is water cooled by the lake that it is run in and rarely develops much heat, also usually runs at a constant hi speed and if it has the right propeller has comparatively little load against it.

Never heard of an Amsoil engine.

In the marine trade Amsoil is frowned upon mainly from their own claims about gear case lubricant. They advertise that it will not mix or foam if contaminated with water. Since these gear cases run under water the manufacturer suggests a lubricant that will mix with water would work the best if a seal was to fail.

The mfr. brands of gear lube can mix 50-50 with water and still have good lubricating quality.

I occasionally see freeze damage if the water is separated from the lube inside of a gearcase. (extreme I know, but it happens) An underwater gearcase can open like an egg if it freezes with water in it.

 

Curti, not trying to stir it up but if a 100-1 mix fouled your spark plug in your splitter in 10 or 15 minutes it probably is a very week spark in your splitter.

Or a very strong spark in your saw. More likely just a coincidence as a saw with the proper mix will run for hours.

 

Back to Als question, I don't think I would go any more than 100-1 on a regular basis and probably more like 200-1 should do the trick.

If you have a 20 gallon tank maybe less than a pint. If you smell it in the exhaust you probably have to much.

I would suggest a parasynthetic as you mentioned.

I am absolutely positive that there will be arguments about all of this. This is just one mans opinion.

[Curti]

Jack, back then, I always ran Amzoil at 50-1 in my chainsaws.  Recently I have switched to Stihl oil, but due mainly to availability. 

What you say makes sense, I have never seen a Amzoil chain saw. 

[Guest Al Brass]

Thanks Jack M for your reply.  As I mentioned, I have always mixed at 40 - 1 but I have wondered if this might be overdoing it as it is only the top end of the engine that I am trying to help.  Being 4 stroke engines with wet sumps, I need pay little attention to bearing lubrication and so the oil manufacturers mix recommendations are not overly relevant.  From what you say, I can maybe decrease my dose a little and help my pocket.  Thanks again.

 

Best regards

 

Al

New Zealand 

[Rusty_OToole]

Why not use something made for upper cylinder lubrication like Redex, Bardahl or Marvel Mystery Oil.

[Guest Al Brass]

Hi Rusty,

In practice, synthetic or semi synthetic 2 stroke oil seems to lubricate better.

 

Regards

Al

[JACK M]

40 to 1 is rich for even a two stroke.

[TerryB]

My son just recently acquired a 1979 moped made in Italy. On the gas tank in big letters it says to use a 40:1 mixture so I don't see that as too rich for 2 stroke applications. In my 1970s competition motorcycle days I ran 32:1 mix in my Husqvarna cycles as that is what they recommended. Some of the newer synthetic oils recommended 50:1 or even 100:1 mixtures. To use those oils often required jetting changes in the carb to get the bike to run well. If you rode two stroke comp bikes you might remember the Hi-Point brand premix oils. My Huskys ran great on that oil and the engines held up quite well on it.

We used Lawn Boy oil in the gas for the moped at 40:1. It seems to run well on that mix without too much smoke.

Terry

Edited January 13, 2016 by TerryB (see edit history)

[JACK M]

The Para synthetics these days don't smoke as much as the old petroleum based lubes.

In the old old days Evinrude and Johnson recommended a quart of 30 wt for six gallons of gasoline. Not much good fishin in those oily waters.

[TerryB]

Six gallons is 24 qts so one qt of oil to that is a 24:1 ratio that was common in very old two cycle applications and they were quite smokey and messy. I have a 1964 Vespa and it was made about the time when Vespa went from 20:1 mixtures to 40:1 or 50:1 depending on engine size.

I still like the sound and power delivery of 2 smokes! I guess it's a nostalgia thing.

Terry

[Vila]

Remember Bardahl "Valve Top Oil" and how small the can was for a 20+ gallon tank of gas?  About the same size as a small tomato paste can.  Not exactly sure what it was, but I guess 2T two stroke oil could possible lubricate valve stems the same way that Bardahl was supposed to work.  Who knows!  I had  a VW engine overhauled back in the late 60s and one of the valves was sticking intermittently, so the shop recommended Bardahl and it worked until the engine got broken in.

 

Terry, I also have a 1964 Vespa.  Mine is a VNB 5T (125cc) that I bought this past August, with 1761 original miles on the odometer.  Last PA inspection was 1967. It looks like new.  The owners manual states 2% oil mixture for this model, which works out to 50:1.

 

The modern synthetic 2T two stroke oil does not smoke as much as the old 30 wt motor oil in a  2 stroker.  The synthetic 2T oil does not foul the plugs of my two stroke Vespa, chain saw, or snow blower engines and they use a lot higher concentration then the Bardahl mentioned above. My snow blower uses 32:1 and as mentioned above the Vespa is 50:1.  I am using Liqui Moly synthetic 2T two stroke oil in my two stroke engines.

 

I would not use a high concentration like used in two stroke engines, but like I said above "who knows".

 

What about Marvel Mystery oil?  I don't use it, but isn't that supposed to do the same thing as your original question is attempting to accomplish.

[Owen_Dyneto]

Setting aside the questions of 20:1 or 50:1 or other ratios, or Marvel Mystery Oil,  2-cycle oil either synthetric or some other "snake oil", the real question behind all of this is whether or not such oils in any way are beneficial or otherwise serve to compensate for the absence of tetraethyl lead.  I'm prepared for anecdotal stories to the contrary but I suspect the answer is NO.  But if it gives you peace of mind, can't hurt.

Edited January 15, 2016 by Owen_Dyneto (see edit history)

[Ivan Saxton]

Fowell the plugs.

It is amazing how much oil a worn engine can consume through piston, ring, and bore wear without fouling the plugs or smoking. In late 1969 I restore my 1918 Mercer to run in the 1970 FIVA "Rally" from Sydney to Melbourne. The car had been extensively used in country New South Wales until 1958, and was pretty worn mechanically but ran well though it used a lot of oil; (but not by leakage). Mobil were generous major sponsors, so we had fuel and oil we needed without restriction. Mercer needed a gallon of oil after every day's run, but it never smoked, and it never fouled the plugs. I remembered this when twenty years later I had the job of rebuilding and grinding the worn junk head rings of two sleeve valve Willys Knight cars for a friend. (This stopped the top blow-by which had been pushing oil from the sleeves into the exhaust ports. In the First World War, the German artillery were able to target the first armoured tanks by the massive exhaust smoke from the big Daimler sleeve valve engines.)

[Curti]

Does any manufacturer of engines or automakers recommend adding oil to the gasoline of a four cycle engine ?

[TerryB]

From what I have read, most early engines were plagued with carbon build up on the valves and pistons. I would think adding oil to the gas would only make this condition worse.

Terry

Edited January 15, 2016 by TerryB (see edit history)

[Mark Shaw]

One of the issues with modern "corn gas" is lack of lubricity due to the ethanol in the gas.  Most of the HCCA guys I tour with use Marvel Mystery Oil (MMO) a few use two cycle oil in their pre-1916 (brass era) cars.  I learned from one of the old timers that the little booze bottles you can get on the airlines are just about a perfect measure for every ten gallons of gas. 

[JACK M]

One of the issues with modern "corn gas" is lack of lubricity due to the ethanol in the gas.  Most of the HCCA guys I tour with use Marvel Mystery Oil (MMO) a few use two cycle oil in their pre-1916 (brass era) cars.  I learned from one of the old timers that the little booze bottles you can get on the airlines are just about a perfect measure for every ten gallons of gas. 

 

So a guy should probably buy several of the small booze bottles and dispose of the contents properly. Then fill them up and keep handy for fuel fill ups.

Seems to be about a proper ratio.

But don't get step one and step two mixed up !!!!  

Edited January 16, 2016 by JACK M (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

The problem with all this conjecture is that NO-ONE KNOWS whether there is anything in it. How would you know? So you have no problem. Nor do I, with no additives.

 

With my cars, if I don't use them, after a while a valve sticks. If I plan on not using them for a while (e.g. a year) I take off the air cleaner, put them on a fast idle, and squirt Shell Ensis into the intake. It smokes like billy-o. After 20 or 30 seconds, shut it down and that is it! The valves don't stick. After a year or more, the Dodge Brothers starts up immediately once petrol reaches the carb. and smokes for a while before settling down.

 

Ensis is a sticky waxy oil from which the volatiles slowly evaporate, leaving a waxy oily coating. Wigram Aero Museum in Christchurch used to use it in their aircraft engines.

[JACK M]

When winterizing a boat (or car, lawn mower, tractor etc.) I use 'storage fogging oil'.

You can get it at most marine dealerships.

[Rusty_OToole]

Oil or upper cylinder lube is not a substitute for tetraethyl lead and will not increase octane. Quite the reverse, it will reduce octane slightly.

 

What it does do is lubricate the pistons, rings, cylinders and valves. These were among the worst wear points on older engines. I don't know how accurate this information is, but have seen claims by the makers of upper cylinder oilers that their use doubles engine life between overhauls.

 

If you use upper cylinder lube and modern oil in the crankcase it should be possible to double engine life over what it was in the fifties or earlier.

 

The alternative would be to rebuild the engine with hardened valve seats, new valves, new pistons, new low tension rings, new type seals and new bearings then use synthetic oil. This should extend engine life to modern standards.

Edited January 17, 2016 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[Guest Al Brass]

Hi guys,

I'm happy to say that I have done nearly 1000 miles in my '15 Buick 4 over the last two weeks and the car ran perfectly.  I used a 50 - 1 mix and never heard a valve squeak.  I would have without the two stroke mix.  I am told that this Valvoline synthetic two stroke oil does not burn during combustion and this is why it works so well on valve guides.  So, I believe the ratio of 50-1 I used is probably about right and I seem to have answered my own question.  Thanks for sharing your opinions.

 

Regards

Al

[JACK M]

Good news.

[Rusty_OToole]

This makes sense as the gasoline available in 1915 was low octane, heavy and oily. Today's gas is light and dry. From all reports such early cars run better with a little oil, diesel fuel or kerosene added to the gas.

[Mark Shaw]

Yup, Rusty got it...  There is a similar discussion regarding a Buda truck engine in another part of the forum.

http://forums.aaca.org/topic/267917-1926-buda-wtu-4-cylinder-40-psi-compression/

Edited January 28, 2016 by Mark Shaw (see edit history)

[CHAD THOMAS]

I run a marine two cycle oil in my 7.4 diesel excursion, better mileage and runs quieter. 

I can see it fouling plugs quickly in an engine not designed for it as those plugs I suspect run cooler than those in a 2 cycle application.  remember when you had an engine that burned oil so bad it fouled the plugs so you could move up one or two on the heat scale to get around that. My 63 Chevy pickup needed this plus antifoulers to run!