new to this, and hoping for help and info

[Guest Jersey Mike]

Hi guys,hoping I can get some help/feedback. I've been considering buying a classic muscle car for years now, but have always been leary. My wife recently bought a 2016 Challenger RT, her "dream car". We have another car payment for a car that we gave to our son that will soon be paid off, freeing up money to finance another car.

She's telling me to get the car I want because I've had the same truck for 13 years now, but this is where it gets complicated. I don't have unlimited funds (in the $20K to $25K neighborhood), but I have found several Nova's, Chevelle's, Impala's, etc that I really like, but the problem is, one is in Iowa, one's in Michigan, one's in Texas.

I know it's common to purchase classic cars from different parts of the country, but how do I get started? Loving the look, vehicle specifics, etc is one thing, but spending $25K on something I can't test drive or even touch is intimidating. Sorry for the long story, but I have the opportunity to get a muscle car I always dreamed of, and I'm stuck on how to go about it.

Any advice and suggestions would be welcomed.

Thanks,

Mike

[JACK M]

If you can spend 25K on a car that makes you nervous then a three or four hundred dollar plane ticket is good insurance.

Might also be a fun time.

[8E45E]

You don't want to miss this next month: http://www.mcacn.com/

 

Craig

[Bhigdog]

Do not be in a rush and If you are buying your "dream car" under no circumstances buy it sight unseen..........Bob

[joe_padavano]

A few things to consider.  First, as noted, if you are spending $25K on a car, a plane ticket is a small additional cost.  Second, are you really qualified to inspect such a car?  There are a LOT of counterfeit and poorly-restored cars out there, most sold to the unsuspecting.  You might be MUCH better off finding a qualified expert to inspect the car for you.  Third, do your homework.  Research the car you intend to purchase and understand what is correct and what is not.  That isn't to say that you shouldn't buy a modified car necessarily, but don't pay a premium for an allegedly original car that isn't.  Find out the usual problem areas for the car you are looking at (primarily rust-prone areas) and check them on the car in question.  Look for poorly-done patch panels or bondo that will crack.  I'm especially suspicious of fresh paint, as you don't know what's under it.  Give me faded original paint any day.  Good luck with your search but be an informed buyer to avoid expensive disappointment.

[John_S_in_Penna]

Mike, it's great to be able to achieve your goals with this car!

It's an exciting time, though of course, with any purchase,

you want to be smart.

 

The advice above, from knowledgeable car fans, is all very good.

Muscle cars, due to their popularity and value, are much

more prone to "counterfeiting" and unauthentic modifications

than just about any other collector car.  For example, was that

1965 Chevrolet Impala SS formerly a family car with a modest engine,

that just got an engine swap and some new badges applied to the 

fenders?  In contrast, a 1969 Oldsmobile 88 hardtop

or 1966 Olds Toronado, or 1975 Chevy Caprice convertible,

would be a great car, should be less than 1/2 the price of a

muscle version, and is unlikely to be counterfeited.

The world of old cars if very broad, with great potential!

 

Am I inferring correctly that this is going to be a regular driver

for you, instead of an occasional sunny week-end enjoyment?

If driven regularly, it will require more maintenance and repair

than a modern car--because cars did back then, and because

your example will be 40 years old.  And it would be unwise

to drive your investment in the wintertime, as cars back then

were much more rust-prone, and salt would deteriorate such a car quickly.

 

Enjoyment, with wisdom, will help you enter the muscle world enjoyably.

Edited October 27, 2015 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[28 Chrysler]

You did not where you live, but the south west is very nice this time of year. Think of vacation / road trip to southern California, Nevada, or Arizona.

[joe_padavano]

You did not where you live, but the south west is very nice this time of year. Think of vacation / road trip to southern California, Nevada, or Arizona.

 

Actually, this is an excellent idea.  I live in the mid-Atlantic.  I won't waste my time buying cars from the rust belt.  Just go to the desert southwest.  Also, my experience as an observer at big car auctions is that it is all too easy for the buyers to get taken.  There is little time to perform a thorough inspection of the cars, prices are usually higher than market (due to the "win at any cost" mentality of some buyers), and you pay a surcharge to the auction house.  Private party transactions are the only ones I would consider.

[John_S_in_Penna]

Private party transactions are the only ones I would consider.

 

Good advice!  You (maybe with a knowledgeable friend)

have plenty of time to talk to the owner, drive the car,

and assess the seller's honesty.

 

There are some good classic-car dealers, and a 

newcomer might deal with a recommended dealer,

because an honest dealer won't be selling junk.

Just be aware that dealers often ask much more

than the going rate for cars, and though they don't

publicize it, they likely accept (eventually) substantially

less than their high asking prices.

[46 woodie]

Perhaps you could contact an AACA or other club member and ask if they could look over the car for you. I would not ask them to do a complete inspection, but if they say the car looks ok, then I would plan a trip to inspect the car myself. They might save you the cost of a trip if the car is not what it is advertised as.

[Guest Jersey Mike]

Thank you for all the feedback. Alot of the responses above are the exact reason I'm hesitant, getting ripped off, buying something but it's not what it seems, etc. I do have a couple friends of the family that are mechanics that would gladly look over a car for me. Asking them to fly out to Iowa, Michigan, or Arizona with me is another thing. I live in New Jersey.

As for what I'm looking for, a semi-regular driver. I know a couple guys who have classic cars with tens of thousands invested, and the car is garaged for 11 months out of the year, only being taken out to shows. I guess I'm looking for a sharp looking car that I can actually use on a regular basis, but still use my truck in the winter when it snows.

For this reason, I'm not looking for a completely frame off restored car. I've been researching them for years, and lean towards the ones that aren't perfect, but still beautiful. I usually try to find ones where the engine and transmission were completely redone by a certified mechanic within the last couple of years, with lots of pictures of the work that was done, and how it looks now. Videos of the car running is also a help.

Flying somewhere to look at a car is an option, but also a problem. The cost of the airfare isn't an issue, it's the time. Have 4 kids at home and the Mrs & I worked alternate schedules (her days, me nights). The house is currently being renovated as she wants to move into a bigger house.

I'm kind of stuck in between, which is my original problem - I hate the idea of buying something without actually looking at it, and it's not a money issue, but a time issue. I don't have the time to fly to different parts of the country to look at each car that catches my eye and meets the criteria I'm looking for.

[Guest Jersey Mike]

This is one that I was interested in located in Iowa. It's a beautiful Chevy Nova II listed for $19,950. The price is great, but it also makes me think, "what's the catch? What's wrong with it?", because I've seen similar Chevy II's going for 10K to 20K more then this one, so I automatically think "what's the catch?"

I guess I'm looking for a great deal, then when I find one, question it and wonder what the catch is, heh

[John_S_in_Penna]

I don't have the time to fly to different parts of the country to look at each car that catches my eye and meets the criteria I'm looking for.

 

There are reputable appraisers who can do the looking for you,

and send you a report.  An alternative is to ask a knowledgeable

club member (such as an AACA member living near the car for sale)

to do the same thing;  you would pay his expenses, at least, for his help.

 

There are price guides, whether in annual book form, magazine form,

or on the internet.  One good one on the internet is at www.hagerty.com.

(Hagerty is a respected insurer of antique cars.)  DO NOT simply judge

by people's asking prices, because sometimes they are wildly optimistic--

even double a car's value--hoping to find, I suppose, an emotional or

unfamiliar or overseas buyer.

Edited October 27, 2015 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[Guest Jersey Mike]

Thanks John. I'm gonna take a look at that Hagerty website for more info.

[Guest Jersey Mike]

OK, just checked out the Hagerty appraisal on '63 Chevy II's. It's still hard to get an accurate idea of what the car is worth though. The Hagerty listings have several different models of the '63, but they're all listed with the original V6 in it. The one I'm looking at has been replaced with a 350 V8, brand new upholstery throughout, and a costume paint job. The Hagerty price for a '63 with all original parts is roughly $10K. I'm not sure what the appraisal would be based on all the modifications though.

I know I'm asking alot of questions, but I'm taking this commitment seriously, have no idea what I'm doing, and trying to avoid as many headaches as possible.

[Guest AlCapone]

And do your research as to what car is holding its value for instance you might like the Nova but I my opinion They are not a wise investment. Don't hurry to buy and make sure you see it in person. Wayne

[Guest Jersey Mike]

Thanks Wayne. Maybe I'm being short-sighted, but retaining the value isn't high on my list. Don't get me wrong, I'm not hoping to lose alot of money, but my main focus is to buy a dependable car that I can use. I'm not really concerned with lowering the value or putting miles on in.

If I can get something that I love, drive it for however many years I have it, and sell if I eventually sell it and get $5K - $7K less then what I paid for it, I'm fine with that.

I've always strayed from the norm. If I like it, that's all that matters to me, not so much the resale value. As long as I'm happy with it, that's all that matters.

[Guest]

re #15: No  63 Chev came with a V6.

The terminology used by some people reminds me of a lady in 1964 who was looking at a 4 door Chevrolet with a 283 V8 engine.  When asked what engine was in it (standing in front of it with the hood open) she counted the caps on the battery and said it was a 6 cylinder.

[Guest Jersey Mike]

re #15: No 63 Chev came with a V6.

The terminology used by some people reminds me of a lady in 1964 who was looking at a 4 door Chevrolet with a 283 V8 engine. When asked what engine was in it (standing in front of it with the hood open) she counted the caps on the battery and said it was a 6 cylinder.

That's odd, because the Hagerty website has them all listed with 194 CI V6's under the appraisal...

https://www.hagerty.com/price-guide/1963-Chevrolet-Chevy_II

Edited October 28, 2015 by Jersey Mike (see edit history)

[Guest BillP]

"That's odd, because the Hagerty website has them all listed with 194 CI V6's under the appraisal..."

 

No it doesn't. Hagerty is referring to an inline six, not V6.

[Guest Jersey Mike]

Well I TOLD you gentlemen I had no idea what I'm doing.

I thought 6 cylinder meant V6...

[Guest Jersey Mike]

The Hagerty website has me confused. On the link I posted, all the '63 Chevy Nova II's have the following engine descriptions -

6 cyl. 194 cid/120hp 1bbl

So that 6 cyl listed is actually a V8?

[Guest Jersey Mike]

I get it now....

Maybe I should just get a used 2004 Hyundai and call it a day....heh

[avantey]

Mike- I applaud your willingness to take time and learn, even your sense of humor about your inexperience.  Keep both while looking and learning.  Go to some local shows, join a local club and make friends.  Everyone has opinions here and everywhere but yours is the one that counts.  You will narrow down the field, maybe get to ride or drive in a few cars and eventually get in the loop on any local cars that are available that might interest you.  The point is the value of networking in this hobby- it is a good, close knit and pretty small hobby after you are in it a while.  All this is true whether you like originals (like here) or modifieds (street rods).  Find folks of a similar ilk and you gain all kinds of good from them as you figure out what you want.

[Laughing Coyote]

Hey Jersey Mike.  Yes there are lots of nice finds out here in the southwest (Arizona area)  Here are some that I just came across while trolling the local CL.

 

https://flagstaff.craigslist.org/cto/5256506883.html

https://tucson.craigslist.org/cto/5285118118.html

https://tucson.craigslist.org/cto/5258749302.html

https://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/cto/5274658746.html

[John_S_in_Penna]

Hagerty might not have every model listed on its website--

sorry if that lead wasn't fruitful for that particular car.

They list a 1964 Chevrolet Nova SS 2-door with a 283 V-8,

and that would be very similar to a 1963.

Then again, they do only list authentic cars, and

customized cars are a whole different ballgame whose

pricing I don't know.

 

Another good reference for antique (not modified) cars is the book,

"2016 Collector Car Price Guide":

 

www.amazon.com/2016-Collector-Car-Price-Guide/dp/144024457X

 

It is the annual book version of the very widely used

Old Cars Report Price Guide, which is in magazine stores

every 2 months.  They pioneered the #1 to #6 condition ratings,

where #1 is a national award-winning show car trailered to events;

#3 is a car seen at local shows with perhaps a few stone chips,

wear on the driver's seat, a few chrome pits, unrestored engine bay, etc.;

#6 is so worn, weathered, or wrecked that it's useful only for parts.

 

There is another on-line pricing guide for antique (not modified) cars at

www.nada.com.  They are likely higher than most others.  They also

produce an annual book in which they explain that their (higher) prices

are for UNrestored, all-original cars.  But they might serve as an

upper bound for pricing for you.

Edited October 28, 2015 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[John_S_in_Penna]

A VERY helpful reference book is Krause Publications'

"Standard Catalog of American Cars 1946-1975: 

 

http://www.amazon.com/Standard-Catalog-American-Cars-1946-1975/dp/0873412044

 

It is the size of a big city's telephone book (but printed on good paper).

It has a HUGE amount of data on all American cars made

during those years--base engines, optional engines, horsepower,

options, descriptions of the models, history of the company and the make, etc. etc.

It will have pricing, too, but pricing will be out of date.

It's a reference book, where you can look up specific makes and years

(and models) you may be interested in, and learn a lot about them.  

Edited October 28, 2015 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[Guest]

Having no idea is okay, being confused is okay, having a sense of humour in this hobby is priceless. Just for fun I

have attached Wikipedia's description of engine configurations.

Engine types include:

Single-cylinder engines

Inline engine designs:

Straight engine, with all of the cylinders placed in a single row Can be 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 or 8.

U engine, two separate straight engines with crankshafts linked by a central gear.

The square four is a U engine where the two straight engines have two cylinders each.

V engine, with two banks of cylinders at an angle, most commonly 60 or 90 degrees. Can be 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12 or 16

cylinders

Flat engine, two banks of cylinders directly opposite each other on either side of the crankshaft.

H engine, two crankshafts.

W engine. Combination of V and straight, giving 3 banks, or two V's intertwined giving 4 banks.

Opposed piston engine, with multiple crankshafts, an example being: Delta engines, with three banks of cylinders and

three crankshafts

X engine. Henry Ford tried this.

Radial designs, including most: Rotary engine designs. Mostly seen on pre-WWII aircraft.

Pistonless rotary engines, notably: Wankel engine.

Good luck in your search, keep looking and keep asking. You realize that you already know more than some people on the Hagerty website. Also remember that there are no dumb questions but there are lots of dumb answers.

By the way the picture is me on the running board of the car that I have been using as my daily

driver since 1959. So you can see that a lot of us here are a little different.

Happy hobbying

Edited October 28, 2015 by Guest (see edit history)

[Buffalowed Bill]

Please do yourself a favor and don't confine your search to just the desert SW. The Pacific NW(west of the Cascade mountains) can be a prime source for an original car. Until recently no salt was used on the roads because we have little snow. The difference is the cloud cover and mild climate that limits the amount of UV damage. I've seen lots of cars from the desert that have great sheet metal but paint, upholstery and rubber are just toasted. You seem like a Chevy guy, so I went to CL and pulled this up. Don't know what you like but I liked this car, but there are others. http://seattle.craigslist.org/skc/cto/5266747859.html

[rocketraider]

Decide what you want- an original/restored car or a modified car- and go from there, but be VERY aware that muscle-era Chevy world is full of questionable cars done to questionable standards by unscrupulous people whose objective is simply to make a fast buck.

 

If car has had major drivetrain or chassis mods, you need to know what companies supplied the parts in case you need service parts down the road.

[8E45E]

Decide what you want- an original/restored car or a modified car- and go from there, but be VERY aware that muscle-era Chevy world is full of questionable cars done to questionable standards by unscrupulous people whose objective is simply to make a fast buck.

This was a good bust: http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2012/04/12/ohio-man-busted-for-trying-to-sell-cloned-chevelle-z16-as-the-real-thing/?refer=news

 

And a worst case scenario where the buyer can become a victim:  http://www.sportscarmarket.com/news/news/3349-the-saga-of-a-stolen-Shelby

 

Craig

[Guest bkazmer]

or in pictures for the common ones:

 

0 0 0 0 0 0   in line 6

 

 

 

0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0   straight 8

 

 

 

0 0 0

                    V6

0 0 0

 

 

0 0 0 0

                    V8

0 0 0 0

 

 

some configurations are inherently better balanced than others due to harmonics

until fairly recently, V6 was an uncommon configuration.  Now inline 6 is uncommon. 

Beware dual ignition engines - while uncommon, the spark plug count is not the cylinder count

[rocketraider]

Craig's examples are exactly what you have to look out for, especially if you move up the food chain into big-money cars.