Is it possible this car infliuenced the Silver Arrow?

[karguy12]

Still trying to uncover history on the Pierce Arrow LSR car. A lot of clues but no smoking gun....yet. However, researching Pierce Arrow history I of course was aware of the 1933 Pierce Arrow Silver Arrow show cars. Five were hand built in 1932-33 and they were quite extraordinary for the time. Most unique was the sweeping fenderline that was flush with the door. Many cars after the war would be built this way. (was this the first?). The Pierce Arrow Land speed streamliner has a body line that to me looked very similar to the 1933 Silver Arrow so I did a little cutting and pasting and was quite shocked to see how closely the body side line matched the Silver Arrow. Did this LSR influence the Silver Arrow and give the designer the idea for the integral fender to door design? Check out these photos and tell me what you think....

Edited June 7, 2013 by karguy12 (see edit history)

[keiser31]

No.

[CarlLaFong]

If anything, it was the other way around

[Restorer32]

Personally I think you are taking a great leap of faith even calling this a LSR car. Do you have any real evidence that it was ever intended to be a LSR car? In my mind it's someone's homemade attempt to build a car to their liking until and unless some evidence emerges suggesting it was more. Another case of the old slippery slope. The Pickers called it a LSR car. You picked up on that and are now suggesting it might be a Pierce prototype of some sort. To my eye it is what it is, someone's not very sophisticated attempt at a home built vehicle. Admittedly it is interesting and I do hope you discover more history on it but so far I just wouldn't make any assumptions. Surely somewhere there is a picture of the finished car if in fact it ever was finished and made driveable. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck.....

[CarlLaFong]

^^^^^^ What he said.

This car has been discussed, at length, on, at least two popular websites. So far, no history or provenance has been revealed. As an LSR car, it wouldn't be much faster than the Pierce that donated the running gear. It was suggested that the spark plugs were welded into the head so they wouldn't blow out, due to the astronomical compression ratio. I will not comment on the absurdity of that statement. Now, since no hard evidence has surfaced regarding the car or the builder, straws are being clutched at in an attempt to give this car credulity. Designs of this sort were around for many years prior to the creation of the LSR car and the Silver Arrow. Phil Wright was certainly influenced by these earlier drawings and models. Was he influenced by this car? It's not impossible, but the odds are less than remote. I think facts need to be faced. Well built or not, it is a backyard contraption with no forebears and no progeny. Is it cool? Absolutely. Is it significant? Doubtful.

[karguy12]

Personally I think you are taking a great leap of faith even calling this a LSR car. Do you have any real evidence that it was ever intended to be a LSR car? In my mind it's someone's homemade attempt to build a car to their liking until and unless some evidence emerges suggesting it was more. Another case of the old slippery slope. The Pickers called it a LSR car. You picked up on that and are now suggesting it might be a Pierce prototype of some sort. To my eye it is what it is, someone's not very sophisticated attempt at a home built vehicle. Admittedly it is interesting and I do hope you discover more history on it but so far I just wouldn't make any assumptions. Surely somewhere there is a picture of the finished car if in fact it ever was finished and made driveable. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck.....

There is no doubt it was built as a LSR. There is no other purpose for a build of this type. Several people with vast knowledge on the subject are sure it is an LSR. I've never said it was a Pierce prototype. I have no idea where you got that information from. All I am stating is that I believe there is no mistaking the fact that this Pierce LSR influenced the design of the Silver Arrow. These are the ONLY two cars on the planet that share this body line. And share it they do... it is almost identical. BOTH were made in the early 30's. BOTH are Pierce Arrows and with the small circle of people building such cars in the early 30's, it would not surprise me at all WHO may have been involved with BOTH including one I KNOW was involved with at least one of them, Preston Tucker.

[CarlLaFong]

So, what you're saying is, you have empirical evidence that this car was the inspiration for the Silver Arrow and not the other way around. All of your proof is rather nebulous. No dated drawings, no period photos, no written documentation, no oral statements from witnesses. Perhaps it was built as a LSR car. Maybe when the builder realized it would do about a hundred, he gave up, who knows. I hope it does turn out to have an interesting story to tell, but so far, all you have done is to offer speculation based on opinion and your own fervent desire that the Hope Diamond of cars has been discovered. This evidence would not hold up in small claims court.

[keiser31]

Looks more like the Chrysler Crossfire than the Silver Arrow.

[karguy12]

^^^^

Designs of this sort were around for many years prior to the creation of the LSR car and the Silver Arrow. Phil Wright was certainly influenced by these earlier drawings and models. Was he influenced by this car? It's not impossible, but the odds are less than remote.

Really? Like what designs would Phil Wright have been influenced by with lines like these two cars? What cars are you aware of that had lines like these two from the early 30's? Surely you must have some examples to have made such a statement. Please, share with the rest of the class.

With the main body line being almost identical and the LSR being built (the original car in 1931) at least two years prior to the Silver Arrow and both cars from the same manufacturer is seems more than "less than remote". When you also consider Pierce Arrows involvement in Land Speed record runs so much so that they invite Ab Jenkins to Buffalo and give him a car it again seems a much greater chance than "less than remote". With Preston Tucker's involvement with racing, streamliners, Harry Miller and his credo of "light as possible and radically streamlined", knowing Harlan Fengler and the Thorne streamliner is seems downright silly to ignore the possible connection. Preston Tucker was also given a 1931 Pierce Arrow when he went there to work in 1931. I wonder if this is his company car he converted.

Edited June 7, 2013 by karguy12 (see edit history)

[karguy12]

So, what you're saying is, you have empirical evidence that this car was the inspiration for the Silver Arrow and not the other way around. All of your proof is rather nebulous. No dated drawings, no period photos, no written documentation, no oral statements from witnesses. Perhaps it was built as a LSR car. Maybe when the builder realized it would do about a hundred, he gave up, who knows. I hope it does turn out to have an interesting story to tell, but so far, all you have done is to offer speculation based on opinion and your own fervent desire that the Hope Diamond of cars has been discovered. This evidence would not hold up in small claims court.

No.... try reading my original post again. What "proof" are you referring to or claiming I presented as "proof"? If you don't know where to first look, how will you ever uncover the "dated drawings, period photos, written documentation or oral statements from witnesses"? But instead of trying to argue with your illogical position, why don't you prove the theory wrong? Do you have any dated drawings, period photos, written documentation or oral statements from witnesses saying that Phil Wright was not influenced by this very LSR when designing the Silver Arrow?

[CarlLaFong]

Ok, you win.

It is the most fabulous discovery since Tut's Tomb. It was obviously designed by a consortium composed of Phil Wright, Alex Tremulus, Leonardo DaVinci and Jesus of Nazareth.

All you have done is drop names and make guesses based on a body line. I do not need to prove you wrong, you need to prove that you're right. So far you've failed, so my thoughts, illogical or not, really aren't important. You have not one scrap of evidence to even begin to suggest that the car has a pedigree. All of your, so called, evidence is circumstantial and a product of wishful thinking. You won't even discuss the possibility that the builder saw the Silver Arrow and designed the lines of your car because it doesn't fit into the imaginary scenario that you are attempting to concoct.

Now, this post will almost certainly be deleted by the moderators because they don't appreciate spirited debate. I have nothing against you, personally, and I've already made it clear that I like the car, but I just don't believe that a car of this, imagined, significance could be given this sort of exposure and viewed by hundreds, if not thousands, of old car guys,without one stepping up and saying, "I know that car and here's the story."

Of course, this is just my, illogical, opinion

[Chris Bamford]

Yesterday:

There is no doubt it was built as a LSR ... Several people with vast knowledge on the subject are sure it is an LSR ... there is no mistaking the fact that this Pierce LSR influenced the design of the Silver Arrow ... These are the ONLY two cars on the planet that share this body line ...

And then earlier today to that sceptic 58Mustang:

... Surely you must have some examples to have made such a statement. Please, share with the rest of the class. ...

OK, I'll bite.

Please share with the class your proof this thing was a Land Speed Record Car with any of the following: photos, press clippings, documentation, names of builder, period owners, construction date and location, and/or class run when and where.

For bonus points, please explain how you know there was never another car on the planet with this body line and that your car was built prior to the Silver Arrow.

For double bonus points, please identify one or two of the several highly-knowledgeable people who are sure this car is a Land Speed Record machine.

[MCHinson]

Guys,

Actually there are no problems on this site with "spirited discussion". Arguments, name calling, and personal attacks will get a post deleted. Please remember to stick to the facts, feel free to discuss your different opinions, but please also remember to keep it civil. If a couple of you go back and read your recent comments, you may find a word or two that you might want to edit to keep it a little bit more civil.

There are lots of folks who would enjoy following this discussion and who hope for some great discovery to solve the mystery. Please just keep it civil.

[CarlLaFong]

And for an additional point, proof that the car was built prior to the Silver Arrow. Since you also post on the HAMB, you must be aware that there are many, many cars with no parts on it any newer than 1948, yet they did not exist, as a running car, until much later. There is no reason to not believe that the builder bought an old Pierce, stripped off the body and hit the junk yards, in search of parts to build his dream car. Old Popular Mechanics and Mechanix Illustrated are full of homebrewed cars with all sorts of wild claims of supersonic speed and triple digit MPH, despite their pedestrian underpinnings

[karguy12]

Ok, you win.

It is the most fabulous discovery since Tut's Tomb. It was obviously designed by a consortium composed of Phil Wright, Alex Tremulus, Leonardo DaVinci and Jesus of Nazareth.

All you have done is drop names and make guesses based on a body line. I do not need to prove you wrong, you need to prove that you're right. So far you've failed, so my thoughts, illogical or not, really aren't important. You have not one scrap of evidence to even begin to suggest that the car has a pedigree. All of your, so called, evidence is circumstantial and a product of wishful thinking. You won't even discuss the possibility that the builder saw the Silver Arrow and designed the lines of your car because it doesn't fit into the imaginary scenario that you are attempting to concoct.

Now, this post will almost certainly be deleted by the moderators because they don't appreciate spirited debate. I have nothing against you, personally, and I've already made it clear that I like the car, but I just don't believe that a car of this, imagined, significance could be given this sort of exposure and viewed by hundreds, if not thousands, of old car guys,without one stepping up and saying, "I know that car and here's the story."

Of course, this is just my, illogical, opinion

I enjoy a good debate as well. I personally do think the car is pretty fabulous. So do many other people. Try Dan Smith, author of "the World's Greatest Beach" about the land speed history there and Chief Historian for the Ormond Beach Historical Society and head of the areas racing history and events. Or perhaps Bill Warner of the Amelia Island Concours d'Elegance who thinks a) this is a LSR and that it is significant. Or John Tucker, who thinks this car is easily something his great Uncle would have built and is looking into it from his family's prospective. Everyone that has personally inspected the car feels that it is unmistakably a Land Speed car. And many more. But it's not the fact that it is a land speed car that is really in dispute. The question that still has yet to be answered is who designed and built it. Those that have inspected the car have been very impressed with it's quality of design and engineering. The shape is very advanced and well designed and not done by an amateur. The engineering on the car is also of a high standard. There were only so many people (or companies) in the 30's that had the financial means or the mechanical know-how to build a car to this standard during the depression era or the lean 30's. And most of those people knew each other and rubbed elbows in the same circles. In fact the more research I do, the more amazed I am about the small circle of men that were involved in these types of endeavors. Everybody knew everybody and they often worked together. I've said from the very beginning that I only want to find the history of this car, not write it. I can't help where the trail is leading. If you don't like the path this research is taking, prove who DID build it and put an end to it. But I assure you, the more research you do, the more you will find yourself looking in the same direction I am.

[1937hd45]

IF this were a LSR car wouldn't the original builder/designer be smart enough to power it with something other than the lump that is in the engine bay? Malcom Campbell turned 246MPH on Daytoma Beach in 1931 and had the LSR Record. Bob

[CarlLaFong]

^^^^That is the biggest reason I am skeptical of the LSR theory. Even with the lightweight body and improved aerodynamics, it would be lucky to go much more than 100-110 mph. Barely fast enough to serve as Campbell's push car. The fact that it seems to be a two seater also raises a red flag, though that doesn't, necessarily, disqualify it. I don't know what sort of classes they had in 31. I doubt there were the numerous classes and sub classes that exist today. I imagine it was fastest car, fastest bike and that was about it. It is an interesting car. I just hope he didn't pay Preston Tucker money for something that could turn out to be an Otto Schmidlapp backyard special.

[karguy12]

IF this were a LSR car wouldn't the original builder/designer be smart enough to power it with something other than the lump that is in the engine bay? Malcom Campbell turned 246MPH on Daytoma Beach in 1931 and had the LSR Record. Bob

Have you ever heard of Ab Jenkins and his stock Pierce Arrow land speed records?? In 1933 he set 79 separate records in a almost stock 207hp Pierce Arrow. Do you think he broke the ultimate land speed record 79 times? Of course not. There were numerous records up for grabs. One of his speed records stood for 50 years until 1990. And when it was finally broken in 1990 it took a team of 8 drivers to do it! Ultimate top speed was only one of the records cars were built to set. Maybe that's why it is so hard for some of you to understand the significance of this car. When the straight eight engine in this Pierce Arrow was introduced in 1929 it was the most powerful production engine produced in America at 125hp. It also was easily adapatable for more power. Ab Jenkins commented on the Chassis in the attached article about the chassis being like a race car and very stable, the same chassis under this car. So, again, some of you scoff at the "lump" and the use of a Pierce Arrow, but in 1931 it actually made sense for some forms of records. "Test driver Ab Jenkins took to the Bonneville Salt Flats in September 1932 with a stripped 452 V-12 roadster prototype that had already done 33,000 miles. It promptly ran 2710 miles in 24 hours at an average speed of 112.91 mph. Jenkins commented: "The car was stable at all speeds, more like a racing chassis." The car was stable enough that Jenkins could write notes to spectators and toss them out at speeds over 110.

No mechanical problems were experienced during the run. Fenders, windshield, and other road equipment reinstalled for the 2000 mile drive back to Buffalo -- a convincing demonstration of Pierce-Arrow stamina.

Jenkins returned to Utah in 1933 with a modified 207-bhp car that set 79 world speed records over 251/2 hours, running as high as 128 mph. The road and weather conditions were more-difficult than the first trip, but neither car nor driver seemed to mind. Ab managed to shave during the final laps.

Edited June 8, 2013 by karguy12 (see edit history)

[CarlLaFong]

Come on!!

A stock V-12 Pierce put out 130 HP. 77 extra horsepower is hardly "almost stock". The engine in your car and Jenkin's V-12 is like comparing a flathead Ford engine to an Indy Ford engine.

[karguy12]

Come on!!

A stock V-12 Pierce put out 130 HP. 77 extra horsepower is hardly "almost stock". The engine in your car and Jenkin's V-12 is like comparing a flathead Ford engine to an Indy Ford engine.

Well what do you think they did to the Pierce V-12? It's not like they could go down to Autozone or Summit and order a hop-up kit. The engine in my LSR was highly modified and some estimate it was putting out about 200hp. just as much as the V-12 but with less weight (in the whole car) and with radical streamlining. The theory goes that Preston Tucker was building this car simply to prove to Pierce Arrow the value of streamlining. Maybe just to show that the straight 8 could beat the V-12 using aerodynamics and built out of his own 1931 company car. Is that why the 1933 Silver Arrow looks the way it does? Edited June 8, 2013 by karguy12 (see edit history)

[Chris Bamford]

...The engine in my LSR was highly modified and some estimate it was putting out about 200hp...

I understand the spark plugs are welded into the head — what other modifications have you identified?

[1937hd45]

Come on!!

A stock V-12 Pierce put out 130 HP. 77 extra horsepower is hardly "almost stock". The engine in your car and Jenkin's V-12 is like comparing a flathead Ford engine to an Indy Ford engine.

Were did the extra 77HP come from? What I've read only states the engine was ported, and clearances opened up a bit. Photos show they worked on the areo package.Bob

Edited June 8, 2013 by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

[alsancle]

Ed Minnie needs to chime in. I believe there was a big 12 and a "small" 12. I think the big one put out more than 130hp stock.

I would agree with the general consensus that any relation between this car and the Silver Arrow is tenuous at best. I might believe this car took styling cues from the Silver Arrow. The reverse is implausible.

[hddennis]

Carguy12, could you post links to where else this car is being debated? I just want to see if you are getting this much flak elsewhere or just here? Howard Dennis

[Studemax]

Well, they are kissing his butt on the HAMB and ignoring him on landracing.com..... I don't know what we should conclude from this. I can say that karguy needs to prove his assertion. I've been reading about LSR history since I was a kid - and there are NO stories or info about this being a Pierce record attempt car. I think it was built by a privateer who never ran the engine in anger over a timed course. It might never have been finished. I think it was overvalued by the seller featured on "Pickers", and I think the car will languish in obscurity for the rest of time.

Edited June 8, 2013 by Studemax (see edit history)

[Chris Bamford]

There is another discussion here: 1930 Pierce Arrow Land Speed Record Car from American Picker's TV Show Unearthed! - FerrariChat.com

[alsancle]

I don't think he was getting any flak in the other thread. Most people including me think the car is pretty neat. The problem with this thread the assertion not that his car was based on an iconic design, but that the iconic design was based on his car. Seems highly implausible, hence the flak. My feeling is late 30s to late 40s hot rod, special or movie prop. I have no facts to base that on other than opinion from looking at the pictures and I look forward to being proven wrong. There is absolutely nothing bad if that is what it is. I would love to see it restored in polished aluminum. I think it would be a show stopper. But I in no way believe it could be related to the Silver Arrow.

[edinmass]

Well, Since AJ asked me to chime in, I will. I have been holding back my ideas on the car as I did not want to offend. To say I hunt Pierce Arrows to the end of the earth is an understatement. I chase cars, parts, you name it; if it's Pierce I want to get my hands on it. I saw the car on the TV show, and after looking over the tape of the show several times in detail, I determined the car was nothing that I was interested in. I also determined what was left was not worth my time to chase down for parts, even if it could be bought for very little money. While I don't know the pickers from the show personally, I do know several people in the hobby who are friendly with them or do business with them. It would have been EASY for me to call them and work out a deal for the location of the car. Paying for leads is part of the dealer / picker business. That said while I can't say weather the owner and I could have come to agreement on price, it would have been easy to at least get to see it. After 40 years of looking at old cars (pre war) and kicking all sorts of tires, I was quite sure it was a old / used chassis that was built a fair time after the chassis was new. Related to the 33 Silver Arrow, no...... hell no. Tucker related.....nope. It's just plain to a seasoned eye the quality of construction, design, and layout are at best ........ shady tree mechanic or high school shop class league. NO ONE would use a Pierce Arrow chassis for ANY land speed type car. Just not enough power either as an eight or twelve. I know of and have some of the design info on the Pierce salt flat cars as well as some other lesser known hot rod straight eights. The engineering quality and details were much more thought out and complete than what we see here on this chassis. As many would say in the era..... it's a "alley shop car." I do think it's neat, and an interesting exercise in chasing down it's history, but in the end, if the story of the car can be told, it won't work out to a true American dream car. I hope the current owner achieves what he is looking for, but my bet is the car probably never saw the street. I don't wish to argue with any one...... it's just my opinion. GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR QUEST. I hope you can prove me wrong. Ed

[edinmass]

P.S. There are quite a few people who think the 33 Silver Arrow was a copy of another earlier car. As not wanting to offend my fellow PA collectors, I will neither confirm or deny this rumor......... which I am rather sure is accurate. :cool: Ed

[karguy12]

Well, Since AJ asked me to chime in, I will. I have been holding back my ideas on the car as I did not want to offend. To say I hunt Pierce Arrows to the end of the earth is an understatement. I chase cars, parts, you name it; if it's Pierce I want to get my hands on it. I saw the car on the TV show, and after looking over the tape of the show several times in detail, I determined the car was nothing that I was interested in. I also determined what was left was not worth my time to chase down for parts, even if it could be bought for very little money. While I don't know the pickers from the show personally, I do know several people in the hobby who are friendly with them or do business with them. It would have been EASY for me to call them and work out a deal for the location of the car. Paying for leads is part of the dealer / picker business. That said while I can't say weather the owner and I could have come to agreement on price, it would have been easy to at least get to see it. After 40 years of looking at old cars (pre war) and kicking all sorts of tires, I was quite sure it was a old / used chassis that was built a fair time after the chassis was new. Related to the 33 Silver Arrow, no...... hell no. Tucker related.....nope. It's just plain to a seasoned eye the quality of construction, design, and layout are at best ........ shady tree mechanic or high school shop class league. NO ONE would use a Pierce Arrow chassis for ANY land speed type car. Just not enough power either as an eight or twelve. I know of and have some of the design info on the Pierce salt flat cars as well as some other lesser known hot rod straight eights. The engineering quality and details were much more thought out and complete than what we see here on this chassis. As many would say in the era..... it's a "alley shop car." I do think it's neat, and an interesting exercise in chasing down it's history, but in the end, if the story of the car can be told, it won't work out to a true American dream car. I hope the current owner achieves what he is looking for, but my bet is the car probably never saw the street. I don't wish to argue with any one...... it's just my opinion. GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR QUEST. I hope you can prove me wrong. Ed

I welcome ALL opinions. I certainly hope that the entire history of this car surfaces one way or another. And in my opinion, even if it is simply a backyard special made by someone wanting his own personal touch to cruise in that's fine. Just look at the Timbs roadster. Left to rot in the desert, used as a movie backdrop, sold for under $18,000 at a Peterson auction in the heart of LA, then finally restored at a cost of well over $100,000 after which it took center stage on Pebble Beach, featured in numerous magazines and received offers in the $400,000 range. Not bad for a nobody car from a nobody builder's backyard made out of an old Buick. But I feel there is more to this car.

Several people DID try and find out about where this car was located and contacted the show. According to Randy, the previous owner of the LSR, American Pickers will not release these locations because of the liability if some viewer decides to rob or worse the owners of this "merchandise" featured on the show. One producer even called him and asked him about it, but his name or the car's locations was to be kept secret. That's why on the show they show them driving around Daytona and then pulling up in front of Randy's house which was actually located across the entire state. Several people burned numerous tanks of gas looking for this car trying to find that house in Daytona including some names you would recognize.

I too scoffed at the Preston Tucker idea. In fact the first time it was offered to me I didn't even bother to look into it. But when it was told to me by more than one person from several opposed camps I had to at least rule it out. The problem with ruling it out is that there just keeps surfacing more and more "coincidences" that not only fail to disprove it, but seem to render it more plausible. So, I run it up the flag pole, take the flak and hope that through these types of exchanges something, somewhere from someone more than my theory or your theory or someone else's theory the true facts will surface. After having the car in multiple forums, newspapers and countless internet exchanges all types of tips keep coming in. And like any good detective, they all should at least be ruled out before being discarded.

Edinmass,

You say you have some history on the Pierce salt flat cars despite your statement that "NO ONE would use a Pierce Arrow chassis for ANY land speed type car". I am interested in knowing several things about that "deal". Such as...

1. Whose idea was it to invite Ab Jenkins to Buffalo?

2. Since Preston Tucker was regional sales manager for Pierce Arrow that included Buffalo, would he have been involved in any of these sales or marketing ideas to try for land speed records with Ab Jenkins? I can't imagine him not being at the table.

3. Even though Jenkins was invited to Buffalo by Pierce Arrow, they apparently decided against any factory backed effort (according to numerous published sources. So if they declined to be involved, how did he leave Buffalo with a used 33,000 mile 1932 Pierce Arrow free of charge?

4. Would Preston Tucker have been in charge of the inventory in the Buffalo area during that meeting and would he have been the one to source a car for Jenkins?

5. Would or could Preston Tucker have given Ab Jenkins a "used" car without the official blessing of the factory even if the factory declined involvement?

6. When Ab Jenkins drove the Pierce Arrow all the way back to Utah and hit the salt flats with it he seemed to take care not to mess the car up with modifications, but took off the fenders and runningboards and top, etc. But when he was done, he put them all back on. Apparently this was because the car was only "loaned" to him and not given to him wasn't it?

7. When he broke the records and then put the car back together he drove it back to Buffalo. Who did he report to? Who did he give the car back to?

8. What happened to car number one?

9. Jenkins was apparently given another shot at it. Was he then given (to keep) the SAME 1932 Pierce or was he given a newer or different car?

10. Who at the factory was involved with giving him this second car?

11. Did he ever bring it back?

12. Jenkins took more liberties modifying the second car and eventually put a more streamlined speedster type body on it. Did he ever give that one back?

13. Would anyone with half a brain back then think that a true streamliner would do even better?

14. During the period that Preston Tucker worked for Pierce Arrow (1931-1933) tucker would ALWAYS go to Indianapolis for an entire month for the Indy 500. Was he representing Pierce Arrow or Studebaker? (they bought controlling interest in Pierce Arrow by then)

15. Was Preston Tucker officially working for Studebaker in 1932 while at the Indy 500 when Studebaker fielded five cars that year?

16. As much as Preston Tucker loved racing, fast cars, the Indy 500, going fast and socializing with all of the other racers and builders, would the factory have wasted that resource of using Preston Tucker? And if not, how did he take a whole month off every year without getting into trouble?!

17. Preston Tucker was in the thick of things during his 1931-33 years at Pierce Arrow and anyone that has researched him can't imagine the factory he worked for keeping him out of or away from these endeavors. Can you?

18 Was Preston Tucker given a company car in 1931 when he arrived there as regional sales manager? Are there any records WHICH car or cars he was given?

19. Is it possible that he may have been encountering resistance to his racing interests and opinions and ideas on how to market Pierce Arrows and took a few liberties himself to help improve the reputation of Pierce Arrow? After all, this was the great depression and money was tight or non-existent even for large corporations like Pierce Arrow. Could that be why this car does not look like the Bluebird in quality since the Bluebird had dozens of factory sponsors including the British government?

20. Tuckers favorite car was a Pierce Arrow which he owned and drove during his 1948 Tucker days. He had a love and a fondness for Pierce Arrows.

21. After Studebaker filed for bankruptcy in 1933, everyone packed their bags and left, including Preston Tucker, who moved to Indianapolis to be closer to the races and the people.

22. Could Preston Tucker have taken his own 1931 company car or the one he initially bought or was given as a 1931 company car and built this car to show the factory the wisdom of what Preston's buddy Harry Miller said that "light as possible with the use of radical streamlining was the only way to go fast"?

23. Could a car like this have been built by Tucker in a garage somewhere in Indianapolis or Buffalo and then shown to Pierce Arrow?

24. Since Pierce Arrow semi-died in 1933 with the filing of bankruptcy by Studebaker, could that have possibly killed off this project streamliner LSR rendering it into obscurity?

25. This Pierce Arrow LSR allegedly wound up in the hands of Ralph "Pappy" Hankinson a huge race car promoter. In 1934 after Harry Miller and Preston Tucker formed Tucker-Miller after Miller had filed bankruptcy in 1933 and built 10 Indy 500 cars for Henry Ford, five of them qualified for the 1935 race. Two of them qualified with two drivers under contract with Ralph Pappy Hankinson, Bob Sall and Ted Horn. How did Tucker get Hankinson to let him use his two contract driver for the Indy 500? Maybe gave him this still born LSR Project. Hankinson was known to buy and trade any type of race cars including old land speed race cars.

26. Is it possible that Phil Wright could have seen this Pierce Arrow LSR while working for the ACD in Indianapolis?

27. Is it possible that Tucker and Wright met and hung out in Indiana during the years previous to the design of the 1933 Silver Arrow?

28. The Silver Arrow was hand built in Indiana by Studebaker, not in Buffalo by Pierce Arrow. Was Tucker hanging around there in those days too?

Perhaps your wealth of knowledge of Pierce Arrow and their cars could shed some light on these questions.

Edited June 8, 2013 by karguy12 (see edit history)

[edinmass]

To Karguy12, Sorry I don't have your first name......., What ever the car is, it sure would be neat to see it put back to what ever it was. It is my sincere hope someone takes up the project, as with all the parts they will need to repair or replace, I am quite sure they would end up in my garage for some of them, allowing me a chance to get my dirty little hands on this interesting piece of automotive history. I do encourage you to read AJ's HAMB thread on his early special, as there is quite a bit of information on how to chase down history of cars with interesting backgrounds. He also has his own website. Spend the time it takes to read every post, it a great story. Ed

[karguy12]

Another lead from a newspaper article in a Daytona newspaper claims that this car was exhibited out in front of the Museum of Speed in Daytona Beach in the 70's. That Museum was owned by Bill Tuthill. The museum closed in the 70's. It was also reported that it may have been owned at that time by Harry Doan. Now Buz McKim says that he saw it there too. Anyone else remember seeing it there or have a photo of it being there??

[1937hd45]

The only Record it will set IMO is the Barrett-Jackson buildup. Bob

Well, they are kissing his butt on the HAMB and ignoring him on landracing.com..... I don't know what we should conclude from this. I can say that karguy needs to prove his assertion. I've been reading about LSR history since I was a kid - and there are NO stories or info about this being a Pierce record attempt car. I think it was built by a privateer who never ran the engine in anger over a timed course. It might never have been finished. I think it was overvalued by the seller featured on "Pickers", and I think the car will languish in obscurity for the rest of time.

[edinmass]

Karguy12 - I can answer some of your questions, but to do so here would take 20 pages, and much of it would be conjecture. So, I will turn the question upside down and ask you, why would anyone take a very late 1931 SMALL SERIES ENGINE from new and build a car for speed when the much larger Series 41/42 motor was available to them? Series 41/42 motors had much more displacement, better ignition system, better internal parts and more horsepower, ect. The chassis you car has is the small least expensive motor Pierce offered on their common run of the mill cars...... not a way to go racing or chasing any record. With an engine built around June or July of 31 why not just grab a twelve from the factory? Why not use the 32 style trans as most late 31 series 43 car did from the factory? It was a better transmission for racing, than the earlier 31 style. Most factory engines for special cars had their own serial number series like the Silver Arrow cars did. Also, any Pierce Arrow mechanic would have run a 1930 series C head for the higher compression ratio, why run the stock 31 small series head? I could pose twenty or thirty questions such as these if I spent a little time thinking about it. If I wanted to go fast in 1931 I would have ran a double over head cam motor with a blower, as were being done by others at the time. The basic fact is simple, while well built and powerful, production Pierce Arrow engines; ( that were in my opinion the best of the straight eights and V-12); no one would race with them.......... then or now. Any association with the factory can be put down with out a doubt....... they would have used the big motor. Ed

[karguy12]

Karguy12 - I can answer some of your questions, but to do so here would take 20 pages, and much of it would be conjecture. So, I will turn the question upside down and ask you, why would anyone take a very late 1931 SMALL SERIES ENGINE from new and build a car for speed when the much larger Series 41/42 motor was available to them? Series 41/42 motors had much more displacement, better ignition system, better internal parts and more horsepower, ect. The chassis you car has is the small least expensive motor Pierce offered on their common run of the mill cars...... not a way to go racing or chasing any record. With an engine built around June or July of 31 why not just grab a twelve from the factory? Why not use the 32 style trans as most late 31 series 43 car did from the factory? It was a better transmission for racing, than the earlier 31 style. Most factory engines for special cars had their own serial number series like the Silver Arrow cars did. Also, any Pierce Arrow mechanic would have run a 1930 series C head for the higher compression ratio, why run the stock 31 small series head? I could pose twenty or thirty questions such as these if I spent a little time thinking about it. If I wanted to go fast in 1931 I would have ran a double over head cam motor with a blower, as were being done by others at the time. The basic fact is simple, while well built and powerful, production Pierce Arrow engines; ( that were in my opinion the best of the straight eights and V-12); no one would race with them.......... then or now. Any association with the factory can be put down with out a doubt....... they would have used the big motor. Ed

Well I can't say for sure, because I wasn't there... but perhaps this article can shed a little light on why someone would chose that engine. Thunderbowl Comet - Land Speed Racing History Scroll down to the 1941 Motor article about Fenger's goal to break several speed records with the same car but a small inline 8, a large inline 8 and then a v-12. There were several classes and several different records all up for grabs at any given point in time. The 366 cubic inch engine is just a hair under 6 liters(5.99767) so maybe they were just going for a 6 liter record. Or... as hypothesized perhaps this was Preston Tucker's company car and that's all he had to work with (for free). And then there is the theory that he was trying to impress upon Pierce Arrow how important streamlining was to car design and if he could show that the smallest weakest engine could beat the top speed of the strongest fastest engine using only streamlining, well now, that would prove his point nicely wouldn't it? Preston Tucker went on to use streamlining in his own car's designs. Most people think that the only "land speed" racing was for all out speed, when in fact most of it, even today is for other records in class, manufacturer, body style or other breakdowns.

Why not just grab a 12cyl from the factory? Well, they already refused to back Ab Jenkins in early 1932. The great depression was in full swing and nobody was handing out free expensive engines. And again, if the factory wasn't interested, taking an engine would have been theft.

Interestingly though... I passed up on a 1937 Adler streamlined Lemans Race car back in the 70's because when I looked under the hood it had what looked like a model A 4cyl engine. The Owner told me it was a Lemans race car, but I didn't believe him for a second using the exact same line of thinking you are expounding in your post. Too small, too weak, why not use more power, there were more powerful engines out there, etc etc etc. I was also told that this was not the kind of car they were racing at Lemans back in 37-38 because they were not running streamliners back then. Then in the late 80's I saw what looked like the same car in Hemmings Motor News being sold for $250,000 and being advertised as a Lemans race car! Holy crap the old man was right all along!!! Well it turns out it was not the car I had seen as a kid, but it was the EXACT same type of car. I went back to the old man's house and the car was still there and bought it. It turns out it WAS a actual Lemans race car and did race in 1937 and 1938 and came in 7th overall and won its class. Here are photos of the exact car I found. The first in the pits at Lemans with its two drivers, the second racing in 37 with a field of outdated looking cars around the modern streamliner, after restoration and the day I bought it from the old man. I learned an important lesson with this Adler. It doesn't have to have a big engine to be a REAL race car. I also note that the quality and type of construction on the Adler is very similar to the quality and type of construction on the Pierce LSR even though the Adler WAS a factory build.

Edited June 8, 2013 by karguy12 (see edit history)

[Chris Bamford]

... perhaps this was Preston Tucker's company car ...

Karguy, first of all I think your car is a very neat machine whatever the history.

But I suspect that if someone were to post a scan from, say, a 1948 Popular Science magazine showing this actual car and its backyard builder — who started with an old P-A and some aircraft surplus — your next theory would be that this so-called builder was really Preston Tucker's nephew and the whole deal was really a ruse to gauge public reaction to the radical shape which Tucker planned to incorporate in the model that followed his Torpedo.

[karguy12]

Karguy, first of all I think your car is a very neat machine whatever the history.

But I suspect that if someone were to post a scan from, say, a 1948 Popular Science magazine showing this actual car and its backyard builder — who started with an old P-A and some aircraft surplus — your next theory would be that this so-called builder was really Preston Tucker's nephew and the whole deal was really a ruse to gauge public reaction to the radical shape which Tucker planned to incorporate in the model that followed his Torpedo.

LOL, I have said repeatedly that I don't care what the history is, I just want to know the TRUE history. I do find it amusing though that so many people are convinced of this car's "Mutt" pedigree and backyard shade tree mechanic build without a single shred of evidence to support that theory. However, these same people slam some of the other theories based solely on the fact that they claim there is no supporting evidence for the other theories. Hypocritical at best.

Those of us that have had the chance to examine the car up close and the car's advanced design and build quality know that someone who knew what they were doing built this car. Having owned and researched the above Adler Lemans race car built by the German Adler factory and seeing this Pierce Arrow LSR, there is no question that whoever built this car had serious mechanical training, engineering skills, an advanced understanding of period aerodynamics and at least some money. The Adler factory build is very similar. The number of people that fit that bill in the 30's or even 40's in America are limited at best. Otherwise there would be dozens of these types of machines around this country in garages and barns. When was the last time YOU saw something similar to this? The only ones I know that are even close are the Timbs special and the Falcon/Comet. After watching the movie "Speed" with the Comet in it and the flimsy door that lifts up and the way the Comet was constructed this Pierce Arrow is way ahead of that car in design. So either way, I look forward to knowing the man responsible for this car.

Edited June 9, 2013 by karguy12 (see edit history)

[Chris Bamford]

...so many people are convinced of this car's "Mutt" pedigree and backyard shade tree mechanic build without a single shred of evidence to support that theory...

How about having your sparkplugs welded into the head?

Sounds to me like buggered threads in an old cylinder head. As for the theory that this was necessary to keep high compression from blowing out the plugs that's just nonsense — and any builder who believed it is far from the expert designer/engineer/craftsman you describe.

Let's imagine for a moment this is truly a serious attempt at a speed record machine and picture this scene...

The car, crew and driver are out on the flats somewhere and the car has just come in from a run. Driver reports that the car seemed strong but missed a bit at high speed. Crew chief suspects suspects dirty plugs and calls out to his helper "Hey Joe, grab the torque wrench, drain pan, and another head gasket from the stack, we need to check the plugs again. Preston you can go have a nap — we'll wake you up once we've gapped the plugs, put the engine back together, ran it through a heat cycle and retorqued the head bolts. If the weather holds we might get a second run in today!"

[hddennis]

How about having your sparkplugs welded into the head?

Sounds to me like buggered threads in an old cylinder head. As for the theory that this was necessary to keep high compression from blowing out the plugs that's just nonsense — and any builder who believed it is far from the expert designer/engineer/craftsman you describe.

Let's imagine for a moment this is truly a serious attempt at a speed record machine and picture this scene...

The car, crew and driver are out on the flats somewhere and the car has just come in from a run. Driver reports that the car seemed strong but missed a bit at high speed. Crew chief suspects suspects dirty plugs and calls out to his helper "Hey Joe, grab the torque wrench, drain pan, and another head gasket from the stack, we need to check the plugs again. Preston you can go have a nap — we'll wake you up once we've gapped the plugs, put the engine back together, ran it through a heat cycle and retorqued the head bolts. If the weather holds we might get a second run in today!"

Has no one on here ever ran into something cobbled up on their car 20, 30 even 50 years after the original builder last touched it?? I can't get over how hung up on this one detail you guys are! Howard Dennis

[CarlLaFong]

LOL, I have said repeatedly that I don't care what the history is, I just want to know the TRUE history. I do find it amusing though that so many people are convinced of this car's "Mutt" pedigree and backyard shade tree mechanic build without a single shred of evidence to support that theory. However, these same people slam some of the other theories based solely on the fact that they claim there is no supporting evidence for the other theories. Hypocritical at best.

I don't see the hypocrisy. You are, at the very least, suggesting that big players had a hand in the construction of this car. All of this is based on conjecture, supposition and a few comments from people that might have seen the car 20 years ago. As I stated earlier, the onus is on you. There is no need to prove you wrong since you cannot prove you're right. Again, it is you that does not have a shred of evidence.

In a previous post, you ask me to "share with the class" what cars could have possibly influenced Phil Wright, prior to the alleged creation of your car. I am ready to share. One is the 1928 Hanomag, discussed in another thread on this board. Another is the Bugatti Tank from 1923. Now, before you whip out your Photoshop and insist that the lines do not match, the key word is "influenced", not copied.