OT: GM corporation finally gone.

[KDirk]

Well, December 15 marked the official end of General Motors Corporation, once the largest in the United States. Dead and buried at 103 years old.

‘Old GM’ buried with bad assets of ’09 bankruptcy | The Detroit News | detnews.com

Somehow I doubt it's replacement, General Motors Company, will last that long.

KDirk

[Guest blue72beetle]

It drives me nuts that their commercials have been playing on the 'classics'. No one wants their overpriced government motors crap, so they make it look like they're the same old company that created classics like Bel Airs and Impalas.

[Bushwack]

Grrrreat....just great! Old GM and Washington Mutual Bank are having a nice par-tee at my expense.

Opens up old wounds. If homicide was legal,...

[KDirk]

Andy-

I do see lots of new Camaros on the road here, so somebody is buying the marketing. Tonight, for the first time, I saw a Chevy Volt in person; was driving behind it on the way to dinner, and wanted to avoid hitting it and causing a battery fire. With that, and now the Chevy Spark, next should be the Chevy Watt. As in "Watt the .... happened to GM?"

Or, in keeping with the theme of electrical terminology, perhaps they should name a new model the "Henry", as this is the unit of measure for inductance. Given how much GM is inducing people to buy (well, finance) cars, this would be a fitting moniker.

At least the REAL GM gave us the Reatta, and many other fine cars before poor decisions and mismanagement drove them straight to the grave.

KDirk

[Rawja]

Whether it fits with your worldview or not, all three of the "domestics" are resurgent, making the best, most competitive cars they ever have. (And I would LOVE to get me a Volt).

[NCReatta]

I've seen a couple Volts around town. They're a good looking car, I have to admit. But I'm just not one for electric cars. I could never really see myself driving something electric.

[padgett]

Sorry but I can't help feeling that the battery cars are a kludge and while we can support a few, in the long term our infrastructure cannot support thousands all plugging in when people get home from work.

Hybrids are worse because now you have two systems t maintain.

Gasoline buggies were able to evolve slowly along with all of the support systems needed, we have no way to support or afford a sudden shift in the structure. Europe is far ahead because the shift was simple and gradual. We didn't.

[handmedownreatta]

actually the volt is a hybrid with more batteries and a cord.btw i think the new camaros are uuuuugly.the new mustangs look much better and are everywhere.

[jonlabree]

Depending on which state you live in the electricity is produced in various ways.

Some states are very dirty in that they produce all of their electricity with coal. Some use lesser amounts and some are very clean. So depending on where you live, just how green are you going to be if you buy a Hybrid? In some places you would only add to pollution buy buying a "Green" car.

[KDirk]

I'll concur that the 3 domestics are making good cars again, and are on the upswing as far as public perception and reputation. That said, I have (and will continue to) a sour taste for how both GM and Chrysler were "saved" from their own shortcomings. I'm not a Ford person, but they (as a company) have my respect for staying in business the old fashioned way - by turning an honest profit. And let's not forget, Ford went through some very rough times too, but recovered on their own. Chrysler was saved twice on our dime, so they get my most pointed criticism.

As to the Volt, irrespective of how good a car it is on looks, technical merit or reliability, the market has already sent a clear message on it - it is practically stillborn. The sales numbers bear this out, and those numbers are despite generous subsidies. that's more of our tax dollars at work given to buyers who want a $40,000+ car. Yeah, that makes sense. The key here is that the Volt lacks that all important "image" that is required for putatively green consumers to want it. The Prius, and various Lexus and Honda hybrids do have that "image", so they are selling like crazy. This is all marketing and psychology, but the sequacious consumer horde has made their collective decision, and picked the winners; the Volt is not one of them. That could change, but preferences based on largely emotional sentiment do not turn on a dime.

I will also maintain that electric/hybrid is nothing but a stopgap at best, and a sideshow folly at worst. These cars will ultimately do nothing to solve the problem of 4 decades of failed energy policy, and will create at least two new problems. First is the need for rare-earth minerals to build the battery packs; once hybrids get popular enough the price spikes now seen in oil will show up in other commodity market elements used to make the batteries. Same as it ever was, except that China mines the lion's share of these materials. We just end up trading one cartel (OPEC) for another (Chinese mining interests, all government controlled of course).

Second is the fact that batteries are so expensive that after the first set is exhausted, these cars are very costly to re-fit with new ones and have virtually no resale value with bad batteries. So, many will be one owner cars that get retired to scrap unless the price of battery packs comes down by an order of magnitude. Think of how many more vehicles would be scrapped simply because it was not cost effective to put new batteries in them. Now there is some environmental impact for you. Like Kermit the Frog said, "It ain't easy being green".

In any case, I tire of reiterating all this. Those who can understand the big picture will get it. Those who are true believers in the cause will never see the facts as they are. Sometimes I wonder if life would be easier by just being a mindless follower, instead of being burdened with the capacity for critical thinking.

KDirk

[jonlabree]

The only real solution is the Hydroen "H2O" powered cars and the auto makes cannot built them with the oil companys breathing down their necks.

[Barney Eaton]

What about the horse? We could breed hybrids that would seat 7-8, increase the miles per bale of hay, collect the dropping and have free fertelizer.

[harry yarnell]

Um, where do we get this hydrogen, and where do we store it?

[jonlabree]

Check this out.

How Hydrogen Fuels Cells Work

[KDirk]

I'll add this:

I'm not sure H fuel cells will ever be practical. There is that other "H": Hindenberg that kind of puts the breaks on the idea of driving around with a quantity of pressurized hydrogen in the trunk behind you. That, and current means of generating hydrogen are not at all efficient enough to result in a net energy gain, just as is the case with ethanol. The law of thermodynamics is a stubborn thing. The refusal of erstwhile intelligent people to accept that law of nature is even more stubborn. That is why we keep going down the wrong roads looking for a solution.

Read up on Thorium Breeder reactors. These could be built and used not only for generation of conventional electrical power, but can be used to efficiently convert coal into oil. If this system was utilized in place of conventional coal power plants and fission nuclear reactors, we would not only have more than adequte power generation for the North American grid, but could supply most (and eventually all) of our oil needs domestically for at least 3 to 4 centuries. Further, it would do so without markedly increasing the amount of coal needing to be mined based on present energy usage.

These plants would, at the same time, eliminate the specter of nuclear meltdowns as with current plant designs. In the 300-400 years we could buy with this approach, certainly something better could be developed. Well, maybe. Given what solutions or lack thereof have been presented in my lifetime (of not quite 4 decades) we may be hopelessly sentenced to eternal stupidity since the decision makers all have vested interests they want to protect at any cost.

The fact that these reactors (which were tested in the 1960's and unceremoniously scrubbed) are not under consideration is because they can not be exploited for ulterior motives as can the current nuclear plant technology. Current design fission power plants are inextricably linked with the creation of weapons grade uranium so, BOOM! There is your ulterior motive for the status quo. Of course political paybacks/dirty dealings and public sentiment (and plain lack of understanding) being against anything nuclear is also a big factor.

The solutions are there. Regrettably, even the best technology is unable to overcome the inertia of ideology and greed. Maybe someday. Don't think I will be around to see it in any case.

KDirk

Edited December 18, 2011 by KDirk (see edit history)

[wws944]

I've seen several Volts and Leafs around, with more of the latter. The issues seem to more of a 'production ramp up' problem than a 'demand' problem. Initial production was targeted to just a few states. Have also seen a number of Teslas, and even know someone who works for them, and someone else who owns one. Neat car, but pricey.

Did anyone else see this article: Researchers Developing Gasoline-Powered Fuel Cell | Fox News It makes a strong argument for Volt-like drivetrain setup.

Here in California, the utility rates are very high. I have TOU (time of use) metering, and the "Tier 2" and "Tier 3" rates are in the neighborhood of $0.50/kwh during prime time (weekday noon to 6 PM), and drop a bit to $0.30/kwh the rest of the day. There is a 'baseline' rate that is lower, like $0.10/kwh - but most households blow right by it and go into the upper tiers.

However we also have a lot of sunny days - which makes installing PV on the rooftop something to consider. The way it works out is that you can sell power to the electric company at the higher rate during the day, then charge your car using electricity at the lower rate at night. With a large enough PV system, you can drive your car for 'free'.

Thus, the financial calculation can get fairly involved. But the way it works out, depending on your commutes, tax incentives, etc., one might be able to break even in ten years or less. If building a new house, it would certainly make sense to design PV into the house from the start, along with at least a rough-in for charging cars.

Edited December 18, 2011 by wws944 (see edit history)

[zoltanb]

Here is a little tidbit from Europe on electric cars:

Bring on the war of words. In a frank conversation with MSN writer Lawrence Ulrich, Audi of America President Johan de Nysschen has said that the Chevy Volt will fail and that anybody who buys the car is an idiot. Not only that, de Nysschen has lumped proponents of any type of electric car into a category of “intellectual elite who want to show what enlightened souls they are.”

Source: Gas 2.0 (http://s.tt/12Acj)

I think it is a dead end with political muscle for the "Correct" crowd

[Guest blue72beetle]

It's funny that we all discuss how rare and hard to find some of the parts will be for our beloved Reatta's, but I truly believe that in my lifetime, the rarest part to find for them will be the gas that goes in the tank.

Or rather, it may not end up being rare, but may end up being un-affordable.

[Bleach]

Forget electric, "H" power, etc.

Wood burning cars are the answer! You can still keep your ICE (internal combustion engine) and use it too.

Wood gas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[jonlabree]

There will be "NO" pressurized "H" tanks in the cars. A "H" fuel cell produces it as it is needed.

[handmedownreatta]

the main problem with the volt and leaf is that you can buy a lot of gas for that extra twenty thousand they cost.the other problem with the leaf is you need another car for trips.not a problem for me but some people want to own only one car.

[handmedownreatta]

heres another possible alternative.Zero Pollution compressed Air Car set for U.S. launch in 2010

[padgett]

Tata has been trying (and failing) the compressed air car for years. Best news is that with conpressed air you get free a/c for as long as the pressure lasts (to fill will require a big intercooler though).

The real solution is external combusion. Was the prime mover in this country befor gas buggys. Can run on anything.

[Reattatude]

Wouldnt surprise me if the GSA owns more Volts than the public. They bought droves of Flexfuel vehicles.

Gotta keep it all in the "family" Goobermint Motors. : P

[Bleach]

Wouldn't be surprised if the goobers own more GM's than the public period.

[Guest Squire Tom]

kdirk

well said.

if they can spend money to get methane from shale and oil from sand , surely they can invent a way to utilize coal as a raw material rather than a fuel. the nazis did it in ww 2 , though their labor costs were very very low.