AACA Judging

[Guest proxie35]

All AACA judges should go to www.efv8.org, general discussion forum & read

"another judging question" I'm sure you'll enjoy the truth.

[MCHinson]

I don't understand the point that you are trying to make. You are trying to compare apples to oranges. AACA judging is designed to judge many different types of automobiles from many different years.

Model A Ford Club of America, Model A Restorers Club, Mustang Club of America, The Early Ford V8 Club, and other similar clubs have juding systems designed to judge a very limited range of vehicles.

This means that AACA Judging is going to be different from any of these other clubs. This does not mean that one is better than the other, it simply means that they are different.

I do see some inaccurate information in that discussion. The following statement is currently the last comment on that discusion: "Ya know... I like to look at it like this: At an AACA Meet, there's one winner and a lotta losers." That statement is totally inaccurate. Usually, there are multiple winners in about every AACA Class. Apparently you don't understand the 10 point rule in AACA Judging.

[Steve Moskowitz]

In my tenure with AACA as a member and in this office I have never once heard a knowledgeable person on the judging side NOT indicate that single marque club judging is not more accurate. It has to be that way. How in the world can AACA judge thousands of brands and have the knowledge of the NCRS on Corvettes or the Oldsmobile Club of America on 4-4-2's? Impossible.

However, AACA works hard at educating its judges. We have schools and certifications and TRY to get it right. We do our best and do more to promote the hobby then anyone based on our sheer size.

Several of our directors are Early Ford guys and have close relationships with those in the club. We sought their help over the Columbia rear end discussions.

This forum is free to all car clubs. Our library is free to anyone. Take your shots but you won't see us taking shots at other clubs. We are all about being the best we can be without trying to be divisive to the hobby or any other club.

[Bhigdog]

The other side of the coin is sometimes the single marque clubs carry the judging to the point of absurdity with judges striving to come up with ever more esoteric minutia.........Bob

[Guest billybird]

Steve: well said. I have been stating the exact same thing for years. However, lets look at two scenarios. One time your {any car} is judged by a team who has no "expert" on that particular vehicle. Then the next time the vehicle is judged, there happens to be two "experts" on that team. I feel the team with the two "experts" would judge more critically than team one. These are areas I feel the AACA is trying to improve on by judges training, continuing education, siminars by marque "experts", etc. and I respect the club for continually trying to improve.

[Steve Moskowitz]

Biilybird, of course, with over 1,000 judges you have consistency issues. Judges try to ask for classes they are most familiar with but that does not always happen. It is an imperfect system with AACA as well as most clubs I have seen. Human beings are involved. That in itself leads to all sorts of issues. As a member of the Class Judging Committee I can readily state that we keep trying to get it right, counsel with judges on performance, change rules, etc.

[J3Studio]

Biilybird, of course, with over 1,000 judges you have consistency issues.

You see this in the single-marque clubs, too. There may be less inconsistency, but the variables and mistakes are more obvious.

[trimacar]

I have great respect for the guys and gals that judge cars, whether it be AACA or any other club. No pay, sometimes no respect, and all for the love of the hobby.

A good friend of mine with the initials JB judged for years, and it's what kept him going in the hobby. He had a few cars, and he toured some, but it was obvious that wasn't the driving force for him to be involved with antique cars. His interest was the people, and what better way to interact with the people than judging. He judged for years after all his personal collectable cars were no longer in his garage.

I agree that AACA judging can't be concerned about the fact that on June 2nd of 1929, a left handed guy was put on the Ford Model A assembly line on the left front conwhatsit, and all the clotter pins were thus turned counterclockwise instead of clockwise on that day only.

AACA must judge on a playing field that is common to all cars meeting the club definition of Antique Automobile, and the ONLY way to do that is physical condition. Fit and finish, quality of upholstery, and so forth. I do disagree with the judging standard, in that it's so limited in respect to operation of the vehicle (thus, as long as you can drive on to the judging field, knocking or smoking or instruments not working, no points off), but that's the AACA standard. I would be more impressed if the AACA added a 20 or so point line item for gauges, starting, engine integrity (judged by sound while running), but I don't see that in the near future. Sure wish you guys would discuss it, though.

Now, I'll end this soapbox discussion by saying I don't care a whit about having my cars judged. They're drivers, and I raised kids who came with us on tours, so couldn't spend my time worrying about a shoe print on the running board.

I was at a show at Sully Plantation in Virginia, soon after moving up to Virginia. I took a great picture of my four daughters (then 9-14 years old) on the running board of our '31 Pierce phaeton. A guy walked up to me a few minutes later, "hey, buddy, you know that there are kids climbing on your car??" ........I wouldn't have it any other way.......

[Shop Rat]

I have great respect for the guys and gals that judge cars, whether it be AACA or any other club. No pay, sometimes no respect, and all for the love of the hobby........

And in all kinds of weather too.

Thanks from me to you.

[DAVE A]

Marque judging and AACA judging are 2 different things and each have their special place in the hobby. AACA judging up to class 28 somewhat resembles Concours judging in that it judges fit and finish and beauty of restoration, but due to the variety of cars in a class, it really doesn't allow for marque specialists . Classes 28 and up seem to be more like marque judging as they allow for "experts" in a make and model to judge the class more on originality. I've thought, in my very limited experience, for the classes to be fair from top to bottom, the experts on a marque should judge a class other than their expertise. Of course, asking for doccumentation is the equalizer, and the owner is assumed to be presenting a correct car.

I personally like our system of judging. I enjoy Concours events (when I am priveledged to be invited to one) and the AACA system has allowed me to develop the methodology to prepare for an event. The second one I was in, I asked how to get involved in judging. I was told to become an AACA judge first and then I could be considered for concours judging. Apparently the concours world respects our system also.

Finally, Trimacar, I'm with you in allowing kids to sit in and have their picture taken in my cars. At a recent concours, I probably had a couple dozen kids sitting in each car. Oh and I was fortunate enough to win a first in one class and a third in the other. Sure it takes more time between shows to get the cars detailed, but I feel kids are the future of our hobby and I view that extra as part of my investment in that future.

[J3Studio]

Finally, Trimacar, I'm with you in allowing kids to sit in and have their picture taken in my cars. At a recent concours, I probably had a couple dozen kids sitting in each car. Oh and I was fortunate enough to win a first in one class and a third in the other. Sure it takes more time between shows to get the cars detailed, but I feel kids are the future of our hobby and I view that extra as part of my investment in that future.

Another in agreement. I've never had a child cause any real problem and the smiles are wonderful.

[Restorer32]

I have a buddy who showed a car in single marque competition. I won't mention the car or the club. At the end of the day there was a tie for top honors. The tie was broken by removing a seat cushion and evaluating the "authenticity" of the springs. My buddy's springs were found wanting because the coils were not individually wrapped while the competing car had the wrappers as original.

[trimacar]

Well, from a trimmer's standpoint, that's a neat detail (to have the springs wrapped per original), although it's hard to think that would make the difference in judging.

I've put many a spring in it's own little "pocket", so kudos to the person who paid attention to that detail.

[Jim Bollman]

Dave A, I agree with keeping the experts in classes they are not expert in unless the whole class fits his expertise. I have judged since the early 80s and have always followed that rule. I almost failed at last years Canandaigua show, they put me in a different class than one of the ones I requested and there was a Crosley listed. I told the team captain that I would try to judge like the cars I didn't know but wanted him to be aware. Turned out not to be a problem because the Crosley and a carburator problem and didn't get out of the trailer. He got his Junior at a show later in the summer.

[budd28]

To make a few points the AACA juding system in my opinion is the most fair compared to marque club Early V8, Mafca. I feel they are too over restored remember they were production based cars they have flaws. Second to Trim a car you have to let children enjoy your vehicles as you would. A friend of mine here in Richmond has always been extremely generous with his vehicles. Several of his cars he goes out of his way to put children in the vehicles, and on several occasions letting kids drive them. At the Apple Blossom show in either '09 or '10 he let the club presidents grandson drive his '09 Rambler on the show field. Now that will be a memory that kid will remember for a life time.

[J3Studio]

One of my favorite moments with the 1985. This was in June 2006 at the Saratoga Automobile Museum in Saratoga Springs, NY. That's his mom on the other side of the car - I remember she and he were both stunned that I would let him sit in the car.

Edited November 15, 2011 by j3studio (see edit history)

[Steve Moskowitz]

Picture and smile are worth ten trophies!

[dbirchmire]

This is what it's all about.

[J3Studio]

This is what it's all about.

That's one gorgeous Boss - love the color, and loved the feature on it earlier this year.

Edited November 15, 2011 by j3studio (see edit history)

[Guest proxie35]

I'm sure most of you a wondering about me & my post on Judging. I'm a life AACA member. I personally restored & intered my first car in a National Show 1968, Have since restored & shown more than 40 cars of all makes. Attended my first Judging School 1970.Retired Senior Master Judge "I stopped judging to be free to talk with vehicle owners. I conducted Restoriation Seminars at the Annual Meetings in Phily. Worked with Ron Barnett to organize the Premier Founders Tour 1988.

The Director made a False Statement at my first judging school & I've heard the same statement over & over for the past 41 years. That is "WE Judge Cars AS They Left The Factory, Not AS They Left The Dealer". AACA

Has Not, Does Not, & Will Not ever judge vehicles as they left the factory. When a Dealer does anything to a vehicle other than Service & Clean it.

They change it from the way it left the factory.

Have any of you ever seen any of these on a Show Field?

1. A 1964 Pontiac with Factory Air & the AC wiring was wraped with a Gray Cover.

2. A 1946 Ford with no Pumpers.

3. A 1946 Ford with Card Board for the passenger side Windsheald.

4. A 1949 Ford with a Chrome Radio Speaker Grill.

5. A 1950 Ford 4dr. sed. with the rear door windor glass lying in the car, not installed in the doors.

Vehicles are judged as they appear on the judging field, against a Judging Form drown up by the judging committee.

[MCHinson]

proxie35,

The General Policy of AACA Judging is as follows:

"The objective of AACA judging is to evaluate

an antique vehicle which has been restored to

the same state as when the dealer received the

vehicle from the factory. Any feature, option, or

accessory shown in the original factory catalog,

sales literature or company directives for

the model year of the vehicle, will be accepted

for judging. The end result of the accurate and

honest evaluation of a vehicle by a judging

team will be the proper determination

of the deserved award for the owner’s efforts."

We have already had this discussion before.

I am sorry that someone upset you in 1970. Don't you think that 41 years is long enough to hold a grudge and worry about this issue?

[Guest proxie35]

Mat, I wasn't upset in 1970, I realized the truth then just as I do today. You just proved my point with your above statement. AACA should drop the statement "AS ThEY LEAVE THE FACTORY" & never use it again. I Have records of cars leaving the Factor just as the cars I listed in my other post. Just for the record I restored 2 cars that won AACA GRAND NATIONAL awards. 1 a First , the other a second. Judging was never my hobby, restoring & showing cars is my hobby.

____________________________________

Sherrel Thomas

1962 Grand Prix Org, 1962 Grand Prix Restored, 1950 Ford Coupe, 1949 Ford Crestliner Clone

Edited November 19, 2011 by proxie35 (see edit history)

[Guest proxie35]

My Restoration Work pictures by proxie35 - Photobucket

Just some of my work.

[Guest]

Please help me here. I have never entered any of my cars in a AACA meet, most likely because one was never near enough to where I live, or I didn't hear about it. I tried to go over the judging section to find what disqualifies a car from being judged. Example; in some brand specific clubs if a car has a modification such as a wrong type of automatic transmission or disc brakes when it should have drums automatically puts the car from stock to modified or semi-modified category. If a car shows up at a AACA event for the first time with such as the above mentioned will the car be disqualified for judging since there is not modified judging in AACA?? If AACA does judge the car what would the point reduction be? Enough for the car to not win a Junior?

Thanks in advance,

Don

[MCHinson]

As I understand your question, no, the vehicle would not be "disqualified". In your example, an incorrect brake system would result in a 10 point deduction. That is a significant deduction. It would not necessarily mean that the car could not win a 1st Junior but it would make it difficult. It all depends on what other scores cars in the class received. If another car in the same class received over 10 points more than the car in question, then the best the car could do would be a 2nd Junior.

Another option would be the Driver Participation Class (DPC). DPC is specifically designed to allow items such as bolt on brake "upgrades".

[Guest]

Thanks for the answer, and I'm rather surprised that AACA judging would give that much latitude. If the car in question had ten points taken and otherwise zero other deductions it could still place and not be a representation of the product. That is interesting!

Don

[ted sweet]

if it has disks that were available on that year and model car its not an AACA deduction.

[Guest walt1937]

i always thought that aaca judgeing was fair and still do but i just got my aaca book to day and found a 1937 railton on the back cover and knew it was the car that was next to me at hershey in my class it is a outstanding car and a outstanding job over all and should get first place any where and had my packerd beat hands down but the only problem i had was the car did not have the right fire ext at the time of judgeing and they were aloud to go and get the right one from a other car so im right to say that is the first rule of judgeing at a aaca show no fire ext no judgeing so i ask was that fair for that car to be judge at this event

[MCHinson]

Walt,

Welcome to the AACA Discussion Forum. Normally, the team captains go around the class a few minutes before the judging starts looking for any potential problems. Normally, one thing that they do is make sure every car has a fire extinguisher. If they don't find a fire extinguisher, they normally try to find the owner and suggest that they need to get out their fire extinguisher or go buy or borrow a fire extinguisher if they don't have one.

[Guest]

if it has disks that were available on that year and model car its not an AACA deduction.

___________________________________________________________________

Ted, That's not what I meant. If a 1961 Pontiac has the wrong automatic transmission what happens??? If a 1961 Pontiac has Disc brakes (never had them in 1961) what happens??. I'm more curious about the wrong automatic though.

Don

[MCHinson]

The transmission is a 5 point item. If incorrect, maximum deduction would be 5 points.

I would encourage you to take your car to a meet and see how it does. AACA judging is not intended to be "nitpicky". You should give it a try.

[ted sweet]

I WOULD GUESS that a judge would never notice the transmission

[Guest]

The transmission is a 5 point item. If incorrect, maximum deduction would be 5 points.

I would encourage you to take your car to a meet and see how it does. AACA judging is not intended to be "nitpicky". You should give it a try.

_________________________________________________________________

I would love to take one of my cars to a AACA meet as long as one is within reasonable driving distance from my house!

Don

[Guest proxie35]

I received my new Antique Automobile today (West Peterson is doing a GREAT job). On page 58 I see a couple of 50 Fords entering the show field at Hershey. A Coupe & Crestliner, both are equiped with 1949 Ford Accessory Bumper Guards & the Coupe has a 1951 Ford Ext. Outside Visor. I'll assure you these cars DID NOT & COULD NOT leave the factory with these accessories. Ford discontinued these guards at the end of 49 model year. These outside visor were not availabile until the 51 Model.

Edited November 22, 2011 by proxie35 (see edit history)

[West Peterson]

Thanks for the comments.

In regard to the Fords, it's possible those cars were docked points if the items are indeed incorrect. It can be somewhat of a "game"... will the judges know, or won't they? As has been mentioned, with 1,000 judges and a different team judging your car each time, you take your chances. The best advice I've ever heard in regards to adding "accessories"... leave off the accessories until you have received all the awards you can fit on your shelf. Accessories are an opportunity for judges to knock points, either for authenticity, or for condition.

Of course, if you're more interested in showing the accessories than adding another trophy to the shelf, that's good for us spectators, and gives us fodder for judging discussions.

[Shop Rat]

..... The best advice I've ever heard in regards to adding "accessories"... leave off the accessories until you have received all the awards you can fit on your shelf. Accessories are an opportunity for judges to knock points, either for authenticity, or for condition.

.....

Excellent advice West. Have heard it many times myself.

[Guest]

Question on accessories. There are Factory accessories that you order from the factory, Factory authorized ( same as above but sold either over the counter or dealer installed) Factory approved ( not factory ) and finally unauthorized accessories. Which ones are acceptable in points judged.

Don

[Restorer32]

All except unauthorized regardless whether dealer installed or not.

[Restorer32]

Although " over the counter" factory authorized but not dealer installed might bring forth some discussion.

[MCHinson]

From the Judges Guidelines:

"Any feature, option, or accessory shown in the original factory catalog,

sales literature or company directives for the model year of the vehicle, will be accepted

for judging."