My next project? 1921 Packard Coupe.

[oldcar]

Thank you Chris

I know that the later 20s cars used this rather special weave mesh. I would be inclined to worry about the amount of air that it excluded from the radiator. It appears to block something in excess of 50% of the available area. In these times of Global warming we need to take these things into account. It is probably fine for show cars that take all their journeys inside totally enclosed trailers but I own neither a trailer or a vehicle big enough to pull one. Even if I did, with the cost of our fuel at around $1.50 per litre, I could not afford to take it anywhere. Helen's 2 Litre turbo diesel VW does around 1,000 kms to the 60 litre tankful. 621 Miles to 13.5 Imperial gallons.(46 mpg or 9 Aust Cents per km or 14.5 Aust Cents per mile) Sorry I don't have a conversion to US Gallons. My 1996 2 litre petrol fuel injected Peugeot 405 SRi is not quite so frugal.

Sorry about that diversion. I will post some more mesh photographs as work proceeds.

Bernie J.

[oldcar]

Hi All

As this morning is a lovely sunny Spring day in Melbourne I decided that the time to end procrastination had come. You can see the results of this mornings efforts below. Please comment if you feel so inclined.

The various stages of the work should be self explanatory.

I am happy with the result and I guess that is what counts in the long run.

Bernie J.

Edited August 29, 2011 by oldcar (see edit history)

[Ozstatman]

Looks good Bernie!

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Bernie, you put most of us to shame! Great job.

Ben

[oldcar]

Hello Ben

That is certainly not my intention. All I am here for is to keep my friends informed as to what I am doing and hopefully to inspire some other enthusiasts to leave the comfort of their arm chairs and to start to actively pursue this great hobby of ours. The world of Vintage/Antique cars has been hugely kind to me and if I can repay this by inspiring just one or two others then I am happy. The genuine and good friends that I have made all around the world over the last 50 years is reward in itself.

Bernie J.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Bernie, I believe it could be said most of us aspire to be more like you. You have such a "can do" attitude , it is amazing. Carry on!!!

Ben

[Friartuck]

Bernie,

I'll be a little critical here...Is this the stone guard you just referred to a couple of posts ago or will there a traditional stone guard mounted to the head light cross bar? This appears more like a facade for the radiator. Dont't confuse my comment...It looks nice....How did you attach it to the shell being as you already had it plated. If you knew you were doing this did you include some blind nuts before it went to the plater?

[oldcar]

Your are correct to be critical. Probably "Stone Guard" was the wrong term to use although it got the message across (sort of). The mesh is purely cosmetic, to disguise the fact that being extremely impecunious and also concerned about the reported reputation regarding the lack of cooling capacity of some reproduction honey-combe cores that I had used a modern core for the Packards radiator. I am sure that I had already explained this but that may have been on the thread that I started on the Packard section of the forum. (now closed) The mesh is attached to the frame of the actual radiator rather than to the surround. The difference in cost between a reproduction honey-combe and a modern core was around Aust $2,500/3000. In the same way the difference in cost between buying, admittedly the incorrect mesh, and doing the job myself and one of Henry Yeska's external mounted totally CORRECT Stone Guards was approximately $1,000. all in all almost the price of a set of four tires. I am sure that there a lot of people reading this saying "If he is that poor he should not (how dare he) have bought a Packard"! Unfortunately I am a slow learner. If I had not bought the "coupe" it would have most likely ended up in the melting pot to be recycled into saucepan lids or something similar. Anyone who feels that they are better qualified to complete the restoration (and of course do it correctly) are welcome to make me an offer.

I do try to be as honest as absolutely possible in all things that I do, say and write. Nothing is hidden what you see is what you get.

Bernie J.

Edited August 30, 2011 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

I am told that "Old habits are the hardest to overcome". My 1934 Lagonda Rapier (the poor mans Lagonda) has had a mesh in front of its radiator since the 1950s. The original vertical slats were removed to improve cooling. We have had global warming here in Australia for a long time.

Bernie j

[danhar1960]

We have had global warming here in Australia for a long time.

Bernie j

Agreed Bernie, since the ice age I believe. It's not Global warming now, it's Climate change. No hang on, it's carbon pollution.......................... Anyway, whatever they call it this week, the new taxes to control the global climate will allow you to put the original vertical slats back in without further worries. :)

Danny

[oldcar]

Back to basics! This mornings task was to remove the body intact and single handed. Now while to some this may appear to be a retrograde step it is actually a giant step forward! With the axles and springs removed there will be only one way that this restoration can move...forward.

Bernie J.

[oldcar]

When I said yesterday that I was "bask to basics" I was really jumping the gun. However today I can say "really back to basics" after a morning of persuading 88 year old nuts and bolts that have not been touched since they left Detroit to come undone. Remarkably the shackle pins and bushes show virtually no wear. The brake cross shaft was frozen solid indicating just how long it must be since the car was last driven. I am finding it difficult to relate the almost total absence of wear on any of the chassis moving parts with the condition of the motor. Despite this I am convinced that the motor is the original and has never been out of the chassis before. Those with fully equipped workshops with travelling cranes and fork lift trucks can have a smile at my expense.

How does a 74 10/12s year old move a Packard Chassis single handed? Well you may ask. The answer is demonstrated below. With a almost worn-out home handyman trolley jack and a pensioned off push lawn mower.

Now I can go back to dismantling the front axle. Has anyone got a spare 2 inch a/f spanner. I need one to undo the front wheel bearing retaining nuts.

One more question is there someone who knows where to buy reproduction rubber bump stops?

[TexRiv_63]

I love your transport system, necessity IS the mother of invention...

[oldcar]

Hi Don

Have you tried picking up even one end of a Packard Chassis? A word of warning don't do it after a big lunch. In fact don't even try before one either.

Bernie J.

[Earl B.]

Bernie, could you please clarify something for me? I know what a spanner is, but what does the a/f stand for? rubber bump stops? Would that be axle rebound pads? thanks, B

[KenHupp20]

Like this ?

[Friartuck]

Bernie, I'd like to see what you used for a rotissiere to flip the chassis over. My arrangement for my '30 Lincoln was a short A frame with cross beam and single pivot bolt. As for rubber, there is a moldable-liquid rubber product from Devcon that I have used for door cushion stops:

Devcon 15800 - Flexane80 Medium Viscosity Liquid Urethane, 1 lb. $37 here in the states

This right out of the can has a Shore A hardness of 80. There is also an additive from Devcon that will soften the hardness down to 60 or even less to suit your application.

[oldcar]

Hello Chris

Your rotisserie looks fine. I am afraid that I don't have anything so sophisticated. My most hi-tec piece of equipment is an ageing chain block (hoist) that is used for everything that I cannot lift by myself. i.e. lifting the body off the chassis and lifting engines etc.

How do you lift the chassis up onto your rotisserie? I almost forgot. I have a vinyl covered flat cushion that saves my knees when kneeling on the concrete floor. 99% of the time I work alone, so I have no one to blame if things don't go exactly right. I have three small tin tool boxes. 1 for sae and af spanners. 1 for metric and 1 for BSF & Whitworth (English) plus the usual array of hammers, snips, pliers & etc. Also two electric drills, an angle grinder, an orbital sander and a jig saw. Owning a French, an English and an American car requires three different sets of spanners.

Bernie J.

Edited August 31, 2011 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Hello B

I have answered your question about AF Spanners

regarding what I call "Bump Stops". These are the rubber buffer attached on the front axle under the U bolts and at the rear bolted to the chassis immediately above the axle tube. so I guess that they could be referred to as rebound pads.

I have shown both the front and rear types below. The front are recoverable but unfortunately the rear have taken an absolute belting.

Also shown is the LH front spring. The first thing that is obvious is that the smallest Leaf is incorrect but what you cannot see is that the centre bolt that locates the spring on the axle and keeps the leaves in their correct place is broken, into four pieces. This tends to confirm my theory that the cars early life was mainly on rough potholed country roads.

Bernie J.

Edited September 1, 2011 by oldcar (see edit history)

[Earl B.]

Bernie, I see your comment about the sae and AF spanners in a toolbox, but I guess I'm stupid. I still don't see what an AF spanner is....so, please in simple terms tell me....

Steele Rubber has the pads, but not sure if it is exactly what you need...https://secure.steelerubber.com/search_frameset.php

Also search 1922 independent makes. There are different size/style bumper pads there.

take care, B

Edited September 1, 2011 by Earl B. (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Hi "B"

AF is simply a system of identifying Nut and Bolt head size rather than the diameter of the shank. It takes the distance in inches across the head of a bolt from side (flat) to side (flat) so AF refers to the size of the spanner you need to fit a particular nut or bolt. Usually metric spanners also give you the size of the bolt head not the diameter of the shank( The diameter of the hole that it goes through). Imperial (English) BSF (fine thread) or Whitworth (coarse thread) spanner sizes refer to the size of the shank of the bolt not the size of the head which if fine unless you come across some special purpose bolt with a non standard size head.

In short the AF size stamped on a spanner refers to the size of the head not the size hole that the bolt goes through.

When you are buying nuts and bolts you alway refer to the size of the shank so a 1/4 inch bolt goes through a 1/4 inch hole but you need a 7/16 (Across the flats) spanner to tighten it up.

Bernie J

Edited September 1, 2011 by oldcar (see edit history)

[Earl B.]

Thanks Bernie... Well, I've learned something new today!! I guess I can coast for the rest of the day.. no need to overtax my pore ole brain. haha.. B

[oldcar]

'B'

You are always welcome!

Steelerubber do have the "bump stop" pads for the rear axle.

All I have to do now is to repair the steel frames.....

Thank you!

Bernie J.

Edited September 1, 2011 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Remember that front spring shown in yesterdays post.....

One thing that has shown up for which I will have to seek some outside help.

The front axle beam has about 1 1/2 inches bend. Fortunately I know someone with a LARGE press.

[oldcar]

Hi y'all

My good friends at Blast Off picked up the chassis frame this afternoon and while not wanting to start into anything major at 3.30 on a Friday afternoon I though I would make a start in straightening out the tinware for the rear "bump-stops". The front ones were OK as they mount onto the top of the spring and are anchored by the 'u' bolts. I think that I mentioned that the rear ones had suffered from a little gentle battering.

I have ordered new rubber pads from Steele Rubber thanks to 'B' giving me their web-site link. (See his post above) So far I have been unsuccessful in finding a source of the tin-ware that locates the rear one onto the underside of the chassis directly above the rear axle.

So with an hour or two to fill in I thought that I would have a go at repairing the originals. Below is a progress photograph of the first attempt along with its partner in as found condition.

The second photograph shows the work in progress with an original rubber pad trial fitted in place.

Before I go much further can anyone suggest a possible source of this tin-ware

Bernie J.

Edited September 2, 2011 by oldcar (see edit history)

[DavidMc]

Bernie,

In case you do not have the original specifications for the front axle, when it is straightened it needs to set up as follows, to ensure correct steering geometry:

Forward inclination of the king pin to the vertical: 3 degrees.

Sideways inclination of the kingpin to the vertical: 0 degrees, (ie KPI is 90 degrees to the axle pads.

My front axle was badly bent and I had it straightened in accordance with the above and it steers and tracks very well.

David McCredie

[oldcar]

Thank you David

I have saved your details into my Packard file. I also note that toe-in is 1/8inch.

Is this what you have used on your Series 1 ? I will try to reclaim both the original bump-stop tin-ware. I think that the first one (photographed) was the worst and with a little more fettling it should be OK. Should be painted or tin plated?

Bernie J.

Edited September 2, 2011 by oldcar (see edit history)

[Bill Boudway]

Hi Bernie,

I painted the ones on our Twin Six.

Also, I cast new rubber inserts.

I used the best one as a pattern and smoothed it with body filler. Then made a mold of plaster of paris.

Good lick,

Bill Boudway

[oldcar]

Hello Bill

Good to hear from you again.

I have decided to paint mine too. After welding and panel-beating them back into a reasonable shape they still are not good enough to simply tin plate. After wire-brushing them clean they appeared to have enough paint remaining to convince me that they had been painted in the first place. I have ordered the rubber pads for the rear from Steele Rubber but will have to cast the front myself. Fortunately I have one that with a small amount of filling will make a good pattern.

Bernie J.

[DavidMc]

Bernie,

Yes the toe in is 1/8" however one of the quirks of this Packard and others of the 1920's that I have worked on, is that they do not have left and right hand threads on the tie rod so to set the toe in you need to turn one of the tie rod ends one full turn either way until you get it as close as possible but I have always found the final turn takes it just past or not quite to the required setting, all in accordance with Murphy's Law. I don't think its that critical.

The bump stop surrounds on mine were painted black originally.

David.

[oldcar]

Thanks David

Packard seemed to have a dislike of LH threads although the wheel bearing retaining nuts are "handed"

As I continue to dismantle the front end the more I become convinced of the short but rough life theory. None of the steering rod "ends" are showing any signs of wear. I believe that with a thorough clean and re-pack the wheel bearings can go back in, likewise with the king-pins, etc. Every thing is packed with a soild mixture of mud and grease. The track rod ends still have their original leather "boots" although as these have hardened I will be making new ones.

I really do wish that I could find out something, anything, about the cars early history. The more that I think about it the more I am convinced that its active life would have been finished well before WW2. Surely some of the older Packard people can remember something. It is not every day that someone cuts the roof off a coupe. Or for that matter do they ship a derelict car off to the other side of the world, albeit 40 years ago! Someone had to do it, the car did not just hop onto a boat all by itself.

Come of people put your thinking caps on... Please.

Bernie J.

Edited September 3, 2011 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Oh well! It seems that either no one actually looks at this "thread" or that most of you are either little more than school age or are so elderly that you simply have no memory left.

This is a pity as all the Packards early history is in the USA. I may be strange some would even say perverse but I really do like to learn as much as possible about my car's history.

Can any of the historians among you, tell me if there are any early Packard records still in existence?

Things like which chassis/id number car went to which dealer?

Enough of all that.. the photograph below shows the bare front axle beam before I take it to be straightened. My meagre workshop just does not run to a 50 ton press...

My other task for this afternoon was taking the stop light switch completely apart, carefully wire brushing and sand papering the folded tin body and mounting platform then giving them a coat of primer. They should be ready to give a light sand and a coat of black enamel tomorrow. While not a big deal even the stop light switch has to be restored back to working order. While it would be easy just to send off the money and have a reproduction one posted to me. The result would just not be the original, and not nearly as satisfying as bringing a 80+ year old switch back to useable life. Once you have taken one apart they are not rocket science.

Bernie J.

Edited September 5, 2011 by oldcar (see edit history)

[oldcar]

Anyone looking at this thread will quickly appreciate why it is rated "one star" (terrible).

[danhar1960]

Not one star any more !!!!

This thread gives me hope that I too can still be buggering around with my old beasts in another 25 years or so. (climate change permitting of course) Goodonya Bernie !!

Danny

[Ozstatman]

Bernie,

The real stars of this thread are, of course, you and the Coupe!

[DavidMc]

Bernie,

I understand your desire for information about the history of your 126. I would also like to know the history of my 126 but despite having owned it for about 35 years and knowing its last resting place I have not been able to find anything. Most of the early Ira Berk Australian delivery records are lost and I guess the same applies to US delivered cars however to put the problem in context the Kimes History of Packard (page 806) gives the 126 production figures as: 1922 - 7,685 units, 1923 - 10,496, so the chances of tracing one of those is slim. I hope you get lucky somebody must know about yours!

David

[MCHinson]

Bernie,

I have never rated a thread on this discussion forum before. I just rated this one. There are lots of folks like me who are too young to answer many of your questions, but still enjoy watching your progress and learning from this discussion. I suspect that there are lots of folks like me who read every day but seldom join the discussion.

[Scotts_DG8]

Bernie,

I too, as mentioned before, am a daily viewer of your activities and observations as you progress through this revival. I would like to consider myself rather skilled in the area of old cars but find that there are a lot of individuals out there that put my skills in perspective. You yourself are quite the craftsman and it is a joy to observe what you can accomplish. I'm certain that the many viewers feel at a bit of a loss as to how more to communicate their amazement of your accomplishments. And I myself never paid any attention to a thread rating, the number of views a thread receives is all telling of what people think of it. Keep up the great posts as I am one of many looking forward to seeing the finished project.

Scott...

[keiser31]

Yeah....what Scott said x 2.

[Larry Schramm]

X3 what Scott said. Bernie, I am retired living in the Motor City and that car was made over 30 years before I was born. Every once in a while I drive by the old Packard plant and wonder if the walls of that place could talk they would be singing advanced opera. I like you would love to know the history of my trucks..... but I do not think it is in the cards. Still like your documented progress to keep the rest of us motivated.