collector car prices

[jeff_a]

Matt,

I thought that was a great post about collector car prices and an interesting sidebar on 5 cars to get into the hobby with. I actually guessed right on the first car on the list (Packard 120). The discussion of blue chip car prices reminds me of a conversation I was having with a few millionaires in the Duchin Room in Sun Valley once...More later.

[jeff_a]

Matt,

I thought that was a great post about collector car prices and an interesting sidebar on 5 cars to get into the hobby with. I actually guessed right on the first car on the list (Packard 120). The discussion of blue chip car prices reminds me of a conversation I was having with a few millionaires in the Duchin Room in Sun Valley once...More later.

[Guest ZondaC12]

I look at ads and read some of the articles Hemmings has had on cheap old cars and it REALLY is neat how much stuff out there is very reasonable and even, <span style="font-style: italic">cheap</span>. And quite often you end up getting a lot of car for your money, because it's probably a 4dr which lessens the vaue a little....but its bigger!!!!!

[Guest ZondaC12]

I look at ads and read some of the articles Hemmings has had on cheap old cars and it REALLY is neat how much stuff out there is very reasonable and even, <span style="font-style: italic">cheap</span>. And quite often you end up getting a lot of car for your money, because it's probably a 4dr which lessens the vaue a little....but its bigger!!!!!

[jeff_a]

...some of the guys were talking about how the economy was down, and one of them said to me he was "bottom feeding" that week, with the lowered prices on housing. I replied to him that I wondered how downturns in the national economy would affect the economy in an upper-class resort community like the one we were in. His answer was that there wasn't any connection at all: the money there was "play money" and had not a thing to do with The Economy. I think with significant collector cars, it might be the same. Someone who works at Walmart, even if he's the manager and makes $90,000 a year, isn't going to look at good fall sales and decide whether he's buying a V-16 Marmon or not for the show and concours season. By the way, the gentleman I was talking to had bought a $5,000,000 house for $3,000,000 that week, even though he already owned ANOTHER second home in this resort town.

[jeff_a]

...some of the guys were talking about how the economy was down, and one of them said to me he was "bottom feeding" that week, with the lowered prices on housing. I replied to him that I wondered how downturns in the national economy would affect the economy in an upper-class resort community like the one we were in. His answer was that there wasn't any connection at all: the money there was "play money" and had not a thing to do with The Economy. I think with significant collector cars, it might be the same. Someone who works at Walmart, even if he's the manager and makes $90,000 a year, isn't going to look at good fall sales and decide whether he's buying a V-16 Marmon or not for the show and concours season. By the way, the gentleman I was talking to had bought a $5,000,000 house for $3,000,000 that week, even though he already owned ANOTHER second home in this resort town.

[jscheib]

Jeff,

Just a quick comment. I hate to belitle someone buying a house for $3,000,000, but that house then is not "worth" the $5,000,000, but only "what" he can sell it for tomorrow. Maybe $3.5, maybe only $2.5. On the other hand if he holds it awhile, it may indeed go back to $5,000,000. To me, if it is money only, it is worth what it is on any given day. If the house, cars, or whatever gives you pleasure, there is an other type of "worth".

That kind of home purchase is not much different then buying stocks, cars,etc. maybe gold is an exception. It is just the cost of the money at the time. Speculation is always a risk. But he is right, it is "play money" to some and "real money" to others. We all know, money makes money, and for every buyer there is a seller.

John

[jscheib]

Jeff,

Just a quick comment. I hate to belitle someone buying a house for $3,000,000, but that house then is not "worth" the $5,000,000, but only "what" he can sell it for tomorrow. Maybe $3.5, maybe only $2.5. On the other hand if he holds it awhile, it may indeed go back to $5,000,000. To me, if it is money only, it is worth what it is on any given day. If the house, cars, or whatever gives you pleasure, there is an other type of "worth".

That kind of home purchase is not much different then buying stocks, cars,etc. maybe gold is an exception. It is just the cost of the money at the time. Speculation is always a risk. But he is right, it is "play money" to some and "real money" to others. We all know, money makes money, and for every buyer there is a seller.

John

[HarryJ]

Quick comments folks ....The Dusenberg that sold at BJ, sold back to the seller.

[HarryJ]

Quick comments folks ....The Dusenberg that sold at BJ, sold back to the seller.

[72caddy]

Interesting thread on value verses worth and the link to attract new blood into the hobby.

I'm 42, bought my Caddy (72 Eldo) 17 years ago as a project (it was!) and I am currently working on obtaining a 27 Willy's or a 16 Buick. The Caddy probably will never be worth much but the top goes down and I love big cars. I like the engineering and sense of accomplishment I get from working on cars.

I work in software but can tell you that we have probably about 5-6 car nuts at work tht all have dabbled in car rodding and/or restoration in varying degrees. Most have abandoned their projects and have sworn off the 'hobby' for several common reasons.

Problem #1 - lack of common interest - no one in the immediately family has the same interest - my two boys could care less about cars but I hate TV so I need to do something after their bedtime.

Problem #2 - not enough time - after working all week, going to kids sporting events/practice/dance 3 nights of those weekdays and then games on Saturday, Church on Sunday, you barely have time to 'dedicate' to doing any real car work. Sport schedules overlap so there is never a break - mainly times I do not get home until 9PM. Yes, the sports are my kids ideas - I do not force them (like other Moms/Dads I know).

Proble, #3 - Money - Some use this excuse but what they are really saying is I could upgrade my current car for that much and have more luxury and look better to the neightbors.

Problem #4 - Driveability - Again a lame execuse that is really covering upan underlying issue that problem #1 is in play - we all need to save face.

I was going to go on but everyone know this. I think what needs to be done is embrace new methods of clubs/forums. Use the forums to gather interst in a quick lunch meet. Exchange tips/help via the web. This very site has helped immensly in my study of the 1916 Buick - I would have passed on that car without question if no one helped. There are no Cadillac, Z3, or Buick clubs in my area but I feel a part of them as I help others and they help me via the computer. In fact I think if you did a 'hit' count on this web page you membership is probably larger than it has ever been. Do some online polls of people in locations and I bet you will find groups in your own back yard - it worked for the Z3 crowd and now they use the forum to organize drives, photoshoots and meet/greets.

We are out there, we just have to do our meets behind a screen and in our pajamas.

When I buy either car I will join the appropriate forum and club. I think any with real interest will. I have several ideas on how to increase paid memberships but I will leave that for now.

As for value I agree that some cars will always be of high value - but those are limited to the very wealthy or speculators - they are no different than stocks at that level. If you compare car prices to fine arrt prices blue chip cars are still very cheap.

Everyday cars and the more unpopular cars will vary as the economy varies but I do not think many will get rid of their projects if they are really interested - they are not paying loans on their projects (most) so selling at a loss does not make sense. If it isn't costing you money, why sell?

[72caddy]

Interesting thread on value verses worth and the link to attract new blood into the hobby.

I'm 42, bought my Caddy (72 Eldo) 17 years ago as a project (it was!) and I am currently working on obtaining a 27 Willy's or a 16 Buick. The Caddy probably will never be worth much but the top goes down and I love big cars. I like the engineering and sense of accomplishment I get from working on cars.

I work in software but can tell you that we have probably about 5-6 car nuts at work tht all have dabbled in car rodding and/or restoration in varying degrees. Most have abandoned their projects and have sworn off the 'hobby' for several common reasons.

Problem #1 - lack of common interest - no one in the immediately family has the same interest - my two boys could care less about cars but I hate TV so I need to do something after their bedtime.

Problem #2 - not enough time - after working all week, going to kids sporting events/practice/dance 3 nights of those weekdays and then games on Saturday, Church on Sunday, you barely have time to 'dedicate' to doing any real car work. Sport schedules overlap so there is never a break - mainly times I do not get home until 9PM. Yes, the sports are my kids ideas - I do not force them (like other Moms/Dads I know).

Proble, #3 - Money - Some use this excuse but what they are really saying is I could upgrade my current car for that much and have more luxury and look better to the neightbors.

Problem #4 - Driveability - Again a lame execuse that is really covering upan underlying issue that problem #1 is in play - we all need to save face.

I was going to go on but everyone know this. I think what needs to be done is embrace new methods of clubs/forums. Use the forums to gather interst in a quick lunch meet. Exchange tips/help via the web. This very site has helped immensly in my study of the 1916 Buick - I would have passed on that car without question if no one helped. There are no Cadillac, Z3, or Buick clubs in my area but I feel a part of them as I help others and they help me via the computer. In fact I think if you did a 'hit' count on this web page you membership is probably larger than it has ever been. Do some online polls of people in locations and I bet you will find groups in your own back yard - it worked for the Z3 crowd and now they use the forum to organize drives, photoshoots and meet/greets.

We are out there, we just have to do our meets behind a screen and in our pajamas.

When I buy either car I will join the appropriate forum and club. I think any with real interest will. I have several ideas on how to increase paid memberships but I will leave that for now.

As for value I agree that some cars will always be of high value - but those are limited to the very wealthy or speculators - they are no different than stocks at that level. If you compare car prices to fine arrt prices blue chip cars are still very cheap.

Everyday cars and the more unpopular cars will vary as the economy varies but I do not think many will get rid of their projects if they are really interested - they are not paying loans on their projects (most) so selling at a loss does not make sense. If it isn't costing you money, why sell?

[Guest cardinal905]

The answer to all problems listed above----the challenge of making something old new again and hopefully preserving it for the next generation. That's why I plan on putting a brass tag somewhere on the frame with the date of restoration and my name---kinda like a car nut tombstone!! Good luck with YOUR 16.

[Guest cardinal905]

The answer to all problems listed above----the challenge of making something old new again and hopefully preserving it for the next generation. That's why I plan on putting a brass tag somewhere on the frame with the date of restoration and my name---kinda like a car nut tombstone!! Good luck with YOUR 16.

[Matt Harwood]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HarryJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Quick comments folks ....The Dusenberg that sold at BJ, sold back to the seller. </div></div>

Oy, I didn't know that. ~$200,000 just for the privilege of buying a car you already own. Ouch!

I wonder if they give a discount for people doing this? It seems pretty shady, but I guess there's not much they can do about it.

I knew it was too good to be true.

[Matt Harwood]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HarryJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Quick comments folks ....The Dusenberg that sold at BJ, sold back to the seller. </div></div>

Oy, I didn't know that. ~$200,000 just for the privilege of buying a car you already own. Ouch!

I wonder if they give a discount for people doing this? It seems pretty shady, but I guess there's not much they can do about it.

I knew it was too good to be true.

[Matt Harwood]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cardinal905</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That's why I plan on putting a brass tag somewhere on the frame with the date of restoration and my name---kinda like a car nut tombstone!! </div></div>

That's an awesome idea. I think I'll steal it! I always do this when I renovate a part of a house. If the wall is open, I put my name and the date, some "before" photos and a newspaper from that day. I love finding treasures in the walls when I open up an old house. I think a future owner might like to know when and who did the work on their car. So many cars have such mysterious histories.

[Matt Harwood]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cardinal905</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That's why I plan on putting a brass tag somewhere on the frame with the date of restoration and my name---kinda like a car nut tombstone!! </div></div>

That's an awesome idea. I think I'll steal it! I always do this when I renovate a part of a house. If the wall is open, I put my name and the date, some "before" photos and a newspaper from that day. I love finding treasures in the walls when I open up an old house. I think a future owner might like to know when and who did the work on their car. So many cars have such mysterious histories.

[Restorer32]

Had a friend who would get "paid", in the form of free admission and buyers ticket and no fees to bring his Duesenberg to auctions. No intention of selling but it did look good in the brochure.

[Restorer32]

Had a friend who would get "paid", in the form of free admission and buyers ticket and no fees to bring his Duesenberg to auctions. No intention of selling but it did look good in the brochure.

[Ron Green]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Matt Harwood</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

~$200,000 just for the privilege of buying a car you already own. Ouch! </div></div>

Buy back is 8%. At 1 million he paid $80,000 for the buy back plus entry costs. What a deal!

[Ron Green]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Matt Harwood</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

~$200,000 just for the privilege of buying a car you already own. Ouch! </div></div>

Buy back is 8%. At 1 million he paid $80,000 for the buy back plus entry costs. What a deal!

[HarryJ]

Matt....I don't think it was a shady deal; just wrong car for the auction format ( ie. muscle car auction..antique car) Don't know whether commission was paid.More anon.

[HarryJ]

Matt....I don't think it was a shady deal; just wrong car for the auction format ( ie. muscle car auction..antique car) Don't know whether commission was paid.More anon.

[Matt Harwood]

I guess I always figured that if you put your car in a no reserve auction, you sell it for the final bid. That's the chance you're taking because you believe the hype. Sure, B-J is a big deal, and it sells a lot of cars for way above market value. But you're right--B-J is no longer the right place to sell a heavy Classic. Go to Russo & Steele down the street where they are embraced, although you'll still pay over-market for the car you want.

The 8% reduced buyback rate bothers me, too, and auction houses should not use it if they want to keep everything above-board. I know it's hard to control who is buying the car (the owner's buddy, for instance), but they could at least do something to discourage the practice. I guess if your buddy buys it, he pays the full fee, but at least keep the owner from doing anything else to affect the sale. They should take some measures to prevent owners from bidding on their own cars, either to drive the price up or to "save" it from an undervalued sale.

It goes back to the "no reserve" idea. If you are afraid you won't get what you want for it, go to another auction house and put a reserve on it. Unfortunately, it's also a way to make sure the predatory B-J company collects a pile of money no matter what happens (nevermind the egregious 10% buyers <span style="font-style: italic">and</span> sellers premiums they charge). This Duesenberg is just one of many painful lessons people have learned at B-J auctions, but at 8%, perhaps it wasn't painful enough.

This is exactly why the prices on cars, particularly in the value guides, are all out of whack.

[Matt Harwood]

I guess I always figured that if you put your car in a no reserve auction, you sell it for the final bid. That's the chance you're taking because you believe the hype. Sure, B-J is a big deal, and it sells a lot of cars for way above market value. But you're right--B-J is no longer the right place to sell a heavy Classic. Go to Russo & Steele down the street where they are embraced, although you'll still pay over-market for the car you want.

The 8% reduced buyback rate bothers me, too, and auction houses should not use it if they want to keep everything above-board. I know it's hard to control who is buying the car (the owner's buddy, for instance), but they could at least do something to discourage the practice. I guess if your buddy buys it, he pays the full fee, but at least keep the owner from doing anything else to affect the sale. They should take some measures to prevent owners from bidding on their own cars, either to drive the price up or to "save" it from an undervalued sale.

It goes back to the "no reserve" idea. If you are afraid you won't get what you want for it, go to another auction house and put a reserve on it. Unfortunately, it's also a way to make sure the predatory B-J company collects a pile of money no matter what happens (nevermind the egregious 10% buyers <span style="font-style: italic">and</span> sellers premiums they charge). This Duesenberg is just one of many painful lessons people have learned at B-J auctions, but at 8%, perhaps it wasn't painful enough.

This is exactly why the prices on cars, particularly in the value guides, are all out of whack.

[HarryJ]

Matt.....Very well put...Auctions have warped the collector car market somewhat from several different aspects. The hype and atmosphere of the auction scene have driven up prices in general and made some cars prices get stupid. I believe it has also brought in speculators who could care less about the cars that they are buying and are only waiting for the next auction were they can sell it for a quick profit. I believe there is a certain amount of hanky panky that does go on between some of the auctioneers and their good customers; those that bring a steady stream of cars to auction after auction. Americans over the last few years have gotten caught up in the get rich quick game which has affected stocks, real estate, and collectables. With the easy money that has been out there it has fueled the madness. I feel the time has come to pay the piper. This is why I say the collector car market will stall and fall. Almost feels like the situation of the mid to late twenties.

[HarryJ]

Matt.....Very well put...Auctions have warped the collector car market somewhat from several different aspects. The hype and atmosphere of the auction scene have driven up prices in general and made some cars prices get stupid. I believe it has also brought in speculators who could care less about the cars that they are buying and are only waiting for the next auction were they can sell it for a quick profit. I believe there is a certain amount of hanky panky that does go on between some of the auctioneers and their good customers; those that bring a steady stream of cars to auction after auction. Americans over the last few years have gotten caught up in the get rich quick game which has affected stocks, real estate, and collectables. With the easy money that has been out there it has fueled the madness. I feel the time has come to pay the piper. This is why I say the collector car market will stall and fall. Almost feels like the situation of the mid to late twenties.

[1935Packard]

I'd never heard of the buyback option. Is that common at auctions? That's certainly annoying for the buyer.

[1935Packard]

I'd never heard of the buyback option. Is that common at auctions? That's certainly annoying for the buyer.

[Chacheska]

Speaking of shady practices ........ there's a car on eBay right now being sold under a private auction. Two minutes after the seller listed the car he got his fist bid. Within the first hour he got a total of 14 bids and the car shot up from next to nothing to over $7,500 in under an hour. C'mon, how often does that happen? He either has a couple of buddies boosting the price or he himself has multiple eBay names and is bidding his own car up. It's over $13,000 now but hasn't met reserve. Still not a big fan of auctions. Too many opportunities to cheat.

[Chacheska]

Speaking of shady practices ........ there's a car on eBay right now being sold under a private auction. Two minutes after the seller listed the car he got his fist bid. Within the first hour he got a total of 14 bids and the car shot up from next to nothing to over $7,500 in under an hour. C'mon, how often does that happen? He either has a couple of buddies boosting the price or he himself has multiple eBay names and is bidding his own car up. It's over $13,000 now but hasn't met reserve. Still not a big fan of auctions. Too many opportunities to cheat.

[Ron Green]

I think the buy back is wrong regardless of percent.

From speaking with a appraiser and a friend who sold 2 cars at this auction they said there is a reason you don't see the owner with his vehicle for the most part. I wonder where they may be, perhaps thinking about buying a car, possibly theirs?

[Ron Green]

I think the buy back is wrong regardless of percent.

From speaking with a appraiser and a friend who sold 2 cars at this auction they said there is a reason you don't see the owner with his vehicle for the most part. I wonder where they may be, perhaps thinking about buying a car, possibly theirs?

[Dandy Dave]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd never heard of the buyback option. Is that common at auctions? That's certainly annoying for the buyer. </div></div>

Right, wrong, or indifferent, it happens all the time! Dave!

[Dandy Dave]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd never heard of the buyback option. Is that common at auctions? That's certainly annoying for the buyer. </div></div>

Right, wrong, or indifferent, it happens all the time! Dave!

[HarryJ]

Guys....I don't want to run down auctions too much. The vast majority of auction houses are straight up. You can get a car for a fair price at auction if you know what you are doing. The job of the auctioneer is to get the best and highest price for the seller; not the buyer. One problem I do see is that auctions are public affairs and thus the prices paid at them set market prices for cars. Private transactions rarely if ever get quoted in public. Prices can vary between these segments of the market on the same car. There are other prices that don't show up in the public domain such as sales of entire collections as a package and trades with boot. I will say one last thing in defense of auction houses; think of the widow who wants to liqudate her late husband's cars. Selling these through the auction process pretty well assures her she is getting top dollar. It also saves her time and effort.