Buffalowed Bill

I always think of the two friends who partnered to restore a very rare Testarossa race car, that the older gentlemen had raced in the 50's. The car owner provided the work space and much of what was needed to do the restoration. The second individual provided the skill, and the work force to do the job. For this he was set up in business and got a share of the car. When the work was done the car achieved the first goal while winning it's class at Pebble Beach. The car was then raced in a vintage race, much to the chagrin of the restorer, because he knew that it would take hundreds of hours of hard work to bring the car back to top shape. That assuming that it was not wrecked during the race. The car survived, the work done, the car sold because there would never be an accord on what the car should be.

Making a car run and driving it is a great deal different then touring or racing it. More power to the guy who is willing to restore, tour and then restore again. For many of us it comes down to keeping our show cars in show condition, and driving our tour cars. At 74 yo I don't have the years left, resources, or the energy to do it any other way.

Thanks for sharing, great cross section of cars.

As I recall the single case OD trans was used through 1936, after which the OD became a separate unit. Interesting times in the OD development, as there were significant changes being made every year, and sometimes more then one change per year.

Presidents used two transmissions in 1937. One is referred to as an automatic overdrive, shifting into overdrive happened when a certain speed was attained, and there was no lockout, so it was in OD until the driver was able to slow the car to that speed. This had obvious disadvantages when it came to braking (no compression). The second trans. was optional, and I believe a late arrival in 1937, and had a manual lockout. Look for a silver mushroom pullout to the left of the steering wheel. I would use the trans. with the lockout if you have a choice.

Gary with all due respect, I think that it impossible to know what the demand for an original type aluminum head might be without doing some research. I have no doubt that at least forty or fifty 1936-37 Presidents have survived. Restoration is not all about the bottom line for some of us. If money was the only consideration, nobody owning a car having one of the 1929-42 engines would consider committing the the resources it takes to rebuild one, but we do. Bill A. is one of those people who is driven to get it right. After he found that using one of the original "Lionite," castings was so fraught with problems, he took it upon himself to do it right. I look at it as a unique opportunity do what other marque owners have done, and make the commitment to authenticity. Please let us know how you feel about the process once you have done what I did, trying to save a "good" original, but still be unsure whether to use it. Your worthy project is your rendition of a clone, and as such you can produce it anyway you choose, a restorer may not feel that he has the same flexibility. Bill

Intriguing and provocative! When I travel to a large city, I like to search out the old hotels in the downtown area. They represent the character and architecture of a bygone era. Their survival, and the way in which they survive, or not survive, help tell the story of the city, then and now. A quick search gave me a site where some of the hotels were pictured, great to be able to look at them but it was saddening to see how many no longer exist.

Gary, Before you waste your time on an original, talk to Bill A. He just had a new one cast. Depending on how it works out, he might consider having a run of these made. I have an original that I had tested and repaired for use on my coupe. It was tested to 125lbs/squ" using compressed air, but not sure that I am brave enough to use it.-Bill

If memory serves me, I believe there were some after market gear sets made in the 3.5 ratio range. I believe that they were made for the bigger 30's cars including the Pierce Arrow. I remember the 3.31 ratio that Gary has used, was standard in the last of the Big 6 Commanders in 1928. That setup with that engine and trans combination was simply amazing. Too bad that it was the last of it's kind.

A couple comments come to mind that I want to get off my chest. In my youth I was probably guilty, as anyone, by making the statement that a particular car was of no collectible value. The statement was stupid, I had no psychic powers or Crystal ball. About twenty five years ago I had mind set change which amounted to a 180 degree reversal. I can't pin point any one thing that changed my thinking, but it was tied to a new appreciation of automotive history, and the survival story that went with an individual car. IMO the mix up happens when we mix up monetary value with everything else that goes along with a vintage car. Just because a car doesn't carry a large dollar value doesn't mean that it isn't interesting. Case in point, this past weekend I spied something at a large car show that really piqued my interest. There was a car model there that I had never seen before. It was an all original 1960 Edsel, four door htp. It had beautiful original paint and interior, and what's more had under the hood a 223 cu" straight six. On the unlikely occasion that I might have seen the car in my youth, I'm sure that I would have just blown it off. But there it was a survivor that just drew me to it like a magnet, as I askewed many of the cars that I had coveted in my youth. The owner indicated that there were one hundred fifty four, four door htps built, and his research had not turned up another on like it. To me my interest in that car had absolutely no relation to it's dollar value. I want to also note that the car's rarity was only part of the equation. I was drawn to the car irrespective of it's production totals. My interest in all things automotive may not be mainstream, but people like me are surprisingly numerous and we are passionate.

Kaiser, Are you talking about the 2002-03 convertibles or the "fat birds," 1989-1997? Since you asked I guess that I should reply. The values and interest in the convertibles seem to be holding up pretty good, lots of them from which to choose, but I really know little about real collector interest. They have always seemed to me to be a women's car. I hope that I'm not being too politically incorrect, just based on who drives them. As for the fat birds, I drive and I like these cars, but I am defiantly in the minority today. Like all cars that came before them their is a lull in interest at about 20-25 years old. This is when the cars leave daily service, the well used versions being relegated to beater status and finding their way into the wrecking yards. The better cars have a really spotty response in the market. That's when I like to find them and drive them. I view driving them as an opportunity to drive one of the last rear wheel drive, V8 powered two door, American personal luxury car. Inexpensive to buy, economical to operate and comfortable to drive. As an aside this last issue of "Collectible Automobile" did a full article on them. Maybe a little premature, me thinks. Probably more prater and less substance then you wanted but thought I should respond. Bill

Rex, Contact Don Kelstrom. he has been given the job of disposing of the stuff that Al Ticknor had accumulated. He has that 1931 President that Darryl Dye had years ago, before it came to the PNW. I think that it will, in all likelihood, be for sale. I really don't know if they are going to hold out for selling the whole car or are going to part it out.-Bill

Rex, Where were you a year ago? Do you know what happened to the car, and do you know if it was a model 82 or 73?-Bill

This may just tend to muddy the waters, but I have used a very unscientific equation, as ballpark to survival numerous times. Some forty plus years ago I bought a book which supposedly was going to help me make money in the old car hobby. What a joke that was! The source for the information was, as I remember, the US Department of Transportation, and I believe that it was an estimation based on registration records. But all this is very fuzzy because I can't find the book. The crux was that there was a survival rate of less then 1%, twenty years post production. This is across the board estimation and fails to take into consideration model desirability, or anything else that might skew the figures. For instance we all know that the survival of a 1953 Buick Skylark is going to be much higher then a regular production Buick, but it's numbers would be dwarfed by the total number of all of the 53's produced. Or take the 1963-65 Buick Riviera, of which 120K, plus or minus, were produced, but a good guess at their survival would be 15-20K, ten to fifteen times what might be expected. Because some car models have virtually vanished, it's obvious that this would only help to set the upper reaches of it's survival. It also fails to take into consideration survival rates based on geography, or whether a car was produced twenty years ago, or one hundred twenty years ago. It seems to me that the best way to make a guess at how many of a desirable model have survived, is to find out if there is a dedicated car club or forum attached to that model. It's a pretty good guess that low production, specialty models are going to be fairly well documented. If however your car of choice is a 1960 Plymouth, four door, good luck!-Bill

More then twenty years ago a friend and I drove his 1930 Pierce Arrow to a yearly concours event in Forest Grove Oregon. On the way home, the ambient temperature had risen to the mid 90's. The car had performed nicely in the morning, but on the way back it began to buck and kick. I told him he needed to pull into a parking lot or he risked being stuck in traffic. When we got out of the car you could actually hear the gas boiling in the non-pressurized gas tank. I asked him where he got his gas, and was told that he got it at a station that use alcohol as it's oxygenating agent. MTBE was still available, and topping off the tank solved the problem. That was the first time, but certainly not the last time the problem could be traced directly to alcohol laced fuel in an old car.

Fenders, running boards, bumpers?

Rex, I thought that you had everything for these cars! This may not work at all, but I seem to remember that John Cislac (pierceparts@aol.com) had re-popped these things for PA/Stude. I looked through some of my stuff but couldn't come up with what I was looking for. Going strictly by memory gets harder all the time!-Bill

I'm a car guy, have been all my life. A good car is a good car, no mater where the hell it comes from. Arguing about where the car is made, or by whom, is just plain stupid.There are always people ready to politicize anything, but it simply does a disservice to what we should be discussing, the car itself. The historians will have plenty of time to parce out details. It's obvious that this car stirs car people to a level of passion that few cars today can approach. The fact that this car is special is obvious by the fact that in a very short time this thread has garnered ten pages of responses. There are few fence sitters, when it comes to this car, someone either likes it or they don't. I'm sure that there are people here that still don't like the Datsun 240Z, without ever having owned, or driven one, but it doesn't diminish what it was or is.

"I see said the blind man," all I had to do was look at the whole picture to see the coupes, duh! Another thing how the hell did they get anything into the yard. Every time I try to follow a possible aisle it seems to be blocked by another car. Obviously the Studebaker sign has very little relationship to the cars that are staged in it's vicinity.

Yards like these were destined to disappear quickly as the WWII scrap drives went into high gear.

Great picture! I'm struck by the fact at there seems to be little body damage on any of the cars. Slower speeds, less traffic and fewer miles driven maybe led to less accidents? I guess contrived obsolescence did survive throughout the Depression. I also notice that in addition to no open cars, there are no business coupes. I guess that could be expected since they were probably the lowest produced closed body style. Maybe saved for hot rods or for use as stock cars.

Queen City plating was already mentioned. I haven't used them in years, but at one time they were as good as any plating shop in the world. But they are expensive! For an honest show quality job I use "Art Brass" in south Seattle. I have used them for fifty years, without a complaint. Plating is an art and as such is only as good as the polisher who does the work. Whenever you want a job that is done right ask about the polisher, and the cars that carry his work. It doesn't hurt to let the polisher know that you have seen his work, and that is why you are there. This is a tough job for which appreciation is not often voiced. Dare I say a personal gratuity might be a nice gesture. Just a thought.

I freely admit that I am not really built for swap meets. I am not an early riser and get bored quickly pawing through seemingly endless piles of parts, most of which I can't identify and most of what I can ID, I don't need. The usual scenario would see me bring home more stuff to add to the clutter. Thirty years ago I changed my MO to better adjust my swap meeting to better suite my proclivity to late rising. After a good breakfast I would walk into the meet at mid-day and chat with old friends. Sunday became my favorite day, the crowds were down and it was just generally more relaxed, and I stopped digging too deeply into the stuff. One late Sunday afternoon as I strolled down the isles of stuff, that was now being boxed and loaded, I heard my name called. I turned to see a friend who was a regular seller. He said Bill come over here I want you to look at this. I couldn't believe what I saw. There in front of me were two beautiful 1934-35 Pierce Arrow side mount covers. They had magically survived the whole meet and were still available, at a price of $75. At the time I owned one of the two surviving 1934, 840A Club Broughams known to exist. The side mt. covers were one of the last things that I was missing for the car. More then ten years of searching had been fruitless, but here they were. The ripping the pants picture fits my hast at getting my wallet out of my pocket. The kicker was that my friend Bob indicated that just an hour before there had been original tires, wheels, with hubcaps, that someone had bought, but had ignored the side mt. covers. Go figure! Sometime later I began to wonder what the history of the parts was, and whether thy might have been stolen. Still wonder, but that was thirty years ago and the car is long gone, sold at time of a divorce. As an aside anyone recognize the car's description? I have been told that it might now live in Colorado. If it does and you have any contact info. I think that it might be fun to make contact, just for fun.-Bill

I love the car, all of it, the concept, the look the performance. It may be an expensive car, but not at exotic car prices. This is one of the most special new car to be put into production in the last fifty years. I'm amazed at the vitriol from people that profess to be real car people. But then who am I but one of those "left cost nit-wits." I have been sitting here wondering if real car people were as negative in 1938, when Labatt Cord's empire was crumbling, or how about the magnificent Pierce Arrow? I think few on this forum today can look at what was, without at least a tinge of sadness at their passing. It may sound a bit trite, but we often don't know what we have until it's gone.

Gary, As always nice to see you at the Intl. I know that you and Jane like to tour after the meets. It looks like you are enjoying some of the best that the PNW has to offer. I hope that you took the the time for a half day trip up to Hurricane Ridge, when you were in Port Angeles. It really puts into perspective the beauty of the Olympic mountains. As Gary points out lots of, what most would call, collector cars in the PNW, but typically we just call them transportation. We dive them a long time because we can. As everywhere things deteriorate, just not as fast where we live.