wayne sheldon

I really do not like to complain. But, YEAH, CCCA means something! What is the proper etiquette here? Should I/we go up the the three dots in the upper right hand corner of the post and click on "Report"? I have done that once or twice for truly offensive postings. But I really do not like being a bother for relatively minor offenses.

Boy you sure know how to hurt a guy! I am so tempted! But I am fairly sure my wife would not like it. She wants something a bit nicer, and doesn't get the so original aspect of it. I have been looking at pictures of this car for a year now I think. At the higher price, it was easy to walk away. I couldn't believe the price you have on it now. If it was closer? I saw this on ebad last night myself. I don't know. The shipping costs are still an issue, coupled with not seeing it up close in person first. Somebody needs to buy this thing before I do something I will regret.

One thing I found out a long time ago in this hobby. There are a lot of things we will never completely sort out. A lot of car manufacturing companies built a lot of cars, that did not match the sales literature. I have told the story before on another thread a couple years ago. When a good friend of mine was having his National touring car restored, oh they had fun! The car's history was pretty well known, and the early 1910s car had been substantially updated in the early 1920s. Newer style top, windshield and fenders among other minor things. They had done a lot of research, and had copies of original literature, as well as original era photographs. The problem was, that the fenders in the photographs didn't quite match what was seen in most of the literature. They contacted a few owners of same year and supposedly model car, and found that all of the original fenders from one car to another didn't exactly match either. So there they were, trying to duplicate the long gone original fenders, and they couldn't even get an agreement between original literature and original photos, and even a couple restored cars to know what was really right! They finally settled on one style that seemed to be in several photos and closely matched two other surviving cars, one of which was close enough to go and take careful measurements, tracings, and photos of. Those were the fenders they duplicated for their National to return it to its early 1910s look. Even cars as well recorded as the model T Ford. During the 1920s, Ford offered several options for wheels on new model T Fords. A lot more than most people realize! Between three types of non-demountable rim clinchers between the mid 1910s and the end of production, two wooden felly styles, as well as a steel felly style. Two tremendously different types of demountable rim clincher wheels, the more common of which were manufactured by four different companies of which half of the rims will not properly fit the other company's wheels. Balloon style 21 inch straight side wheels and tires for three years, and in two differing brake drum sizes. Along with their Ford welded steel wire wheels available only for 1926 and 1927 model years. Ford's own archives have provided "dates of changes" saying that the steel felly non-demountable rim wheels will totally replace the wooden felly non-demountable rim wheels on such or such a date (several different dates have been found!). The problem with those "dates of changes"? Is that Ford's own factory photographs clearly show that the wooden felly wheels continued to be used clear until the end of production. Although records clearly show that the steel felly wheel (for the low cost option) will be exclusive, it never happened. I wish I had copies of the Ford factory photos to share, I do not. But I did get to see them in a private collection over forty years ago! It would take some digging but I do have copies of general era photos showing the wooden felly wheels on later cars than the records indicate should have had the steel felly wheels. While photos showing the wooden felly wheels are actually fairly common on early to mid 1920s model Ts, photos showing the steel felly wheels are around, but not nearly as common. In spite of the fact that the dates of changes indicate that everything by the mid 1920s should not have been the wooden felly wheels. One of the dates of changes I have seen was in 1921. But it clearly did not happen. The 1926/'27 wood or wire wheels have also been argued ad nauseum on model T websites. I don't care how many different people want to show me their copy of the sales literature that states quite clearly that certain body styles were going to all get the steel wire wheels as standard equipment at some point in 1926. Therefore ALL late 1926 and all 1927 such body style must have wire wheels in order to be properly restored. Literally hundreds of era photographs showing very late model Ts of those body styles, and even a few original copies of sales receipts, say it never happened. That may have been the factory's intention. And clearly they sent the letters, and printed the literature. But it did not happen. This is part of the fun, and frustration, of researching these things. NO one source alone can be fully believed. There are almost always exceptions, or outright errors, in recordkeeping.

Hey there Chris B ! I wish I had something good to offer. But the few people I knew years ago that sourced special chain, a few of them are gone now, and another I know the source he used has since gone away (I asked him about it almost ten years ago, and his source was already gone). That chain doesn't look too good, does it. It appears to have been cleaned up from a bit too rusty. But I find myself wondering. How badly worn is it? Has the length stretched enough to cause troubles? I have seen worn chains that couldn't pull properly because the cumulative wear of each and every link and pin and hole caused the chain to bunch up going around the large sprocket. That causes the chain to climb on the pull side of the large sprocket and can ruin the sprockets if they are good (and what I can see of the sprocket in your picture does look good) I did some looking at a project some years back that was going to need new chains. Some research I did at the time, I found a combination of two sizes of chains that I could have taken completely apart, and reassembled alternating pieces from a larger and smaller size chain to get a combined length and pitch that looked like it would work. I ended up not getting the project, so never actually had to do the work. I don't know if something like that could be found for yours or not?

And WE are very happy that you are here telling those stories! Thank you.

Great photo! Must be a 1913? Left hand driven. She I do not think knows how to crank a car, cause that is not the way to do so! Mark W, No such thing as "Free Shipping" either! One of my pet gripes about commercials.

And that appear to be a British bodied model TT. It was a popular style in England, and to a lesser extent other British Empire countries. Not a popular style in the USA. The license plate pretty much cinches it. Although I do not know what county or country that particular plate is from. Nice truck! Thank you for finding and posting it.

Very likely. But since Ford did not manufacture TT truck rear fenders, and they were made by several different companies that supplied after-market bodies and pieces, there is no one right standard rear fender. All that said, real original TT truck rear fenders are somewhat rare. Someone would be very happy to get those.

Peter G, I am mostly on your side on this issue. Just trying to explain the middle ground a bit for people that are not familiar with both the IT and its ways, and the silliness of people. I am guilty of some of the same silliness myself. I have a great dislike of a lot of the information mining so common these days, and don't like any store (seems like most stores these days!) that pushes me to have to sign up for THEIR "club" card. Do they not understand that I have to deal with about twenty different store chains? I should carry twenty different cards in my already uncomfortable wallet? So they tell me to use my phone number. For various reasons, I prefer to not use my cell phone number, and used to usually use the home landline (which as of this winter's storm downing the lines, we no longer have). My problem with the landline has been that my wife has insisted on changing the number half a dozen times in just the past fifteen years. So now, I go into a store I don't shop at often, long since lost the card, and they want to know my phone number! But I don't remember which one. A few store chains I go to often enough, I do remember which one, and give them a number I haven't had for almost fifteen years! I often wonder who has that number now, and feel a bit sorry if the store is selling THAT number for sales lists. I do need to update my passwords. It has been awhile. But I like my old one. The last past time I change my email password I needed to change it quickly due to some suspicious activity (see people! Hacking does happen! It was my wife's computer and accounts that got hacked.) I quickly changed my important passwords simply as a precaution, and monitored my accounts closely for a few months. I don't say it often enough. THANK YOU! To you Peter G, and all this site's moderators, the club volunteers that keep the offices running, make the tours possible, and everything else that make the AACA, HCCA, MTFCA, and dozens of other antique automobile clubs, all possible. THANK YOU!

I hate Yahoo. I have hated Yahoo for more than ten years now. As long as they allowed me to set "My Yahoo" up my way (within reasonable parameters!) and opt out of their silly updates that I did NOT want? I liked Yahoo. But once they changed their mind and made me have to look at their stupid ideas of what news I needed to see was? I have hated Yahoo. However, I have used a Yahoo email address as my primary email since Yahoo was a small startup. I do not want to change it, because longtime friends, clubs, rosters, for more than twenty years have it in their permanent records. I like it when a longtime friend reaches out to me. A lot of people do change their email often. My father-in-law once changed his three times in one month! He couldn't get along with anyone, tried every new startup in his area, never did find one he could get along with. And there are a lot of good reasons to change email. A lot of people use their work email. Jobs change? Email changes. A lot of people use what their ISP (Internet Service Provider, phone company, cable, satellite?) provides with the service. You move? Your ISP changes, your email changes. A very good friend a few years ago had to change his because he got a divorce (she got the email address!). So, it is understandable that some people will not remember what email address they signed on with. As for not logging out? Generally, in the IT (Internet or Information Technologies) world? That is not considered wise. In truth, it probably will not cause a problem. But it could. For instance, if your computer were to be hacked? And believe me, it DOES happen! If your computer is still logged onto the AACA forum? The hacker would have access to any members area that you have access to. This is one of the reasons new members cannot send PMs or see restricted photo files. Needing to "survive" some number of postings makes it difficult for would-be scammers to stay long enough to acquire that access. A hacked computer already logged on gives immediate access. I "try" to log out every night, and usually if I leave the house unattended for more than an hour or two. Most days, I log on when I get up, and log off last thing before turning in at night. This and one other forum, I usually check several times per day. And, caution. When logging out? Log out, then leave the computer on for a minute or so. SOMETIMES, I find, that if I shut my computer down immediately after logging off? Even though my computer SAYS "You have logged out"? The next morning, sometimes, I turn my computer on, and find I am still logged in. I suspect that is part of the way the system works. This, I am not an expert about, but I know more than the average bear? The website and my computer need to communicate with each other. They need to complete their "goodnight handshake". Even though my computer SAYS I have logged out, it isn't official until the handshake makes it official. If at that moment, some other minor activity interrupts that handshake before it is completed, BEFORE I shut my computer off? It will still be logged in the next time I go there. That happens on several websites. And me being silly me, I have played with the timing a number of times. The exact timing is random, hence, random interruptions. The other website I frequent often requires an even longer (sometimes a few minutes!) wait before shutting the computer down. For me? Switching over here? My computer did something I do NOT like for it to do. I keep turning a lot of those "gamer" functions (swipe etc) OFF! And somehow, they keep getting turned back on again! (DON'T get me started!) So about a week before the March one day? My computer somehow switched me to signing in with my email address! As much as I wanted to cuss out my computer for doing so, I left it that way and it has worked fine ever since. I suspect I would not have had any trouble with it on my own since my email hadn't changed. Hang in there! And good luck!

When I first saw that photo a couple days ago? I knew it wasn't, but it really reminded me of the Murphy bodied Duesenberg convertible coupe that Jack Passey had fifty years ago. I still think of that one as my all-time favorite model J!

Two Duesenberg J/SJ almost black roadsters? I will need to go through the entire thread again (darn!) to make sure I have the two straight in my head. Headlamps? Chrome wheels, black wheels? Both have black walls. Tan top and black top (if it is up?)? Which one is the Packard body?

Thank you to all that contributed to this thread! I have enjoyed checking in often these past few days. A lot of wonderful cars there. Also congratulations to those forum few that won ribbons as well!

NICE!! Congratulations.

Ed, Your point is well taken, and I agree with you. It is unfortunate, that a lot of genuine cars will not get the respect they deserve because while a car may or may not be real? The documentation for them simply does not exist. But that, is a fact of life. As I have said, on this particular model T? I will not take a side. In part because I am frankly a bit too close to it. I personally know a few people very passionately on one side or the other. And I wasn't close enough to make a solid commitment to either side. My somewhat lengthy posts are intended to put the car, and its issues, in some reasonable framework for those here not familiar with it. It is not a "fake" nearly in the sense of hundreds of "brass era" model Ts built out of a bunch of 1920s parts and modern reproduction nearly half of it. More of this car is original 1909 pieces than nearly half the brass model Ts on most HCCA tours are their genuine year pieces. But is this particular car the true earliest model T in existence? I know people that passionately believe that it is! And I know people that absolutely believe that it is NOT! Adequate documentation does not appear to exist (and several people have been looking for it for a long time now!). And I do not know the answer for certain either way. I do know that a lot of original pieces were, and needed to be, replaced when the car was restored. But that is true for a lot of even the finest collector cars. And most of those replacements for this car, were proper era correct parts. (Excluding of course tires, paint, upholstery materials etc etc etc.)

Funny how things go around. About twenty years ago, I almost bought (probably?) that Pioneer cyclecar! We were looking for a two cylinder car to buy, and my wife found the red Pioneer cyclecar on ebay. It was a little more money than I was prepared to spend, and not quite what I was looking for. But if the wife likes it? Big plus! We ended up getting something else, and I lost track of the Pioneer. If things had gone just a bit differently? Twenty years ago it might have been me trying to sort out this ignition system! Now here we are, twenty years later, discussing it. Not many Pioneer cyclecars around, and the same color? Almost has to be the same one.

Fifty years ago, I had a cheap bicycle tire pump, had had it for several years. And it broke. It had the usual thread on connector for the valve stem (hard to find these days, but still can be gotten!). The connector and hose were still okay' I took a rubber stem valve from a destroyed inner tube, using my pocket knife, carved the rubber off of the lower half of the stem, revealing the brass stem inside. Using a very small hose clamp, I attached the stem into the other end of the tire pump hose. That silly thing, is today hanging on a nail in my workshop! And is a cherished favorite tool! I do not need to fumble with valve stems sinking into the uninflated tire. I simply thread the short hose onto the stem, The connector is large enough that it usually prevents the new tube's stem from falling completely inside the rim. With the valve stem in the other end, and core in place, An easy two handed hold the air hose to the old tire pump hose and air goes in. Watch the new tube's valve stem, and guide it if necessary until sufficient pressure is inside the new tube. With the short hose having its own valve and core, I can walk away for a bit if I need to. Fiddle with guiding the new stem into place through the rim. Go back and add more air when ready. Talk about making the job easier! I also use it to keep my hands and arms out of the danger zone when airing up lock ring rims. I probably should have patented the silly idea fifty years ago?

I don't even need to look back at the photos again. I looked at all the listing photos a few weeks ago, and if you are referring to what I think you are referring to? It has been discussed on one of the few recent discussion threads about this car. There are actually two number "twos" on the right side of the block. One, a "cast in place" number two is almost an inch tall, and can be seen in a couple of the photos, down low on the cam side of the crankcase, just forward of the carburetor. That one is a mold number. Used by the Ford factory to track the quality of castings, molds, and patterns used in the casting process. I do not see any "crap" there. The other is shown in closeups, without good size references, and is rather small. It is a stamped numerical "2", and actually in this case double-stamped. The hammer and stamping die bounced, leaving a close over-strike "two". There is some "garbage", discoloration, to the right of that number two. That discoloration was discussed on recent threads (there are a few recent threads!) about the car. I did not participate in that discussion. However, their general consensus was the same conclusion as mine when I first looked at the photos. Clearly, it is discolored. Most likely a spot of rust that didn't get cleaned up in prepping the car for sale, because it is a small minor spot in a difficult small and almost impossible to see place. What you cannot tell in the photos, is that "2" is about a quarter inch tall, in the space about an inch and a half wide between number two and number three exhaust ports! That area, due to the exhaust heat, is prone to surface rust! The fact that that area would have some minor rust discoloration on a sixty year old restoration of a hundred and ten year old car is not surprising. Relevant historic details. Only the first few (fifty to maybe a hundred? I don't recall the actual number offhand?) model Ts had the serial number located between the manifold ports! The error was corrected very early, putting the serial number boss down front behind the timing gear where it remained until early in 1912. The cast in place mold number down on the side of the crankcase was in that location through most or all of 1909, and some or most of 1910. It is one of the first details purists look for in determining real from "fake" early engines. There are nearly a dozen details people like me look for in photos or in person to spot the real ones. Although some people have gone to great lengths to fake a later early block and pass it off as a real one? This one is almost definitely a real and very early block. Again, lack of adequate documentation when the car was restored has some people believing it was a somewhat later block and may have been altered? It would require some mount of invasive investigation to determine definitely one way or the other.

Wow! THANK YOU Dave! I learned some things today that I had not run into before. I may never yet need to know these things, however, just having read your excellent descriptions gives me satisfaction. And if I do run into something? Or maybe do enough work on my gasoline carriage, I might alter my plans? I have a beginning. Thank you.

Not wanting to start any debates about this car. There are enough of those already. And, if one wishes to follow the links provided ? (I have not at this time?) One could likely read the same arguments over and over again. And, probably see my name in several of them. So just some clarification for anyone wondering, but not wanting to spend half the afternoon reading old arguments. As far as I know, I have never been within a hundred feet of this particular car. Although it would have been very possible about fifty years ago when the car was still in Southern California, and I spent some time down there at meets it may have been at? But I hadn't gotten really interested in early model T Fords at that time, I was mostly looking at other horseless carriage era cars. I am not mentioning names, you can follow the links if you want to know them. I have listened to the stories as told by the family that had and "restored" this car back in the 1950s and 1960s. I know what they say and believe. I also know a few of the doubters personally, and I have no reason to "doubt" their doubts. So, I am not taking sides. In my view, there is little doubt that this car is one of the best restored and "most correct original era parts" earliest Ts in the world. But IS it car number "2"? THAT is where the doubt is. The fellow that restored this car, AT THAT TIME, was one of the most knowledgeable people on the planet about the first year of model T Fords. But remember, at that time, most knowledge in the hobby was from faulty memories! People in the hobby just didn't really know one tenth of what we know today. The early Ford archives were buried in filthy warehouses, none of it sorted or cross referenced in any way. People like me hadn't yet spent thousands of hours studying era photographs, looking for all the little details, trying to sort out time lines. On the flip side, in those days, real genuine first year parts showed up at most hobby swap meets! I remember some of the swap meets I went to in those days having a dozen sellers with piles of 1909 and 1910 parts! And the fellow that restored this car knew what he was looking for. Unfortunately. The fellow that "restored" this car was guilty of a mistake that I am also very guilty of. NOT taking enough photos or documenting the facts and details as he went along. To make that matter worse, several of the photos (his and other people's!) claimed to be car number 2 before restoration? Have been studied enough, in spite of poor quality, to determine that they were in fact photos of a different car! This WILL be a problem for anyone reading old discussions about this car, and ironically to a lesser extent also car number 222 (currently on display at the Ford Piquette Plant Museum). Over the years, several people got their photos mixed up, along with a couple other very early unrestored model Ts. So if you decide to read through a bunch of past discussions? Keep in mind that not all photos are correctly identified. The car's story goes that it was discovered, purchased and resold, eventually going to the fellow that restored it. It was claimed to be car number 2. It was restored as such. But a lot of pieces on the car were wrong, or in poor condition. The fellow that "restored" the car already had most of the proper pieces to replace the wrong parts. I suspect that he also may have replaced some correct pieces simply because the original was in poor condition and he had better ones. There weren't many people in the world at that time better suited to do the restoration, and do it properly. If only he had kept a lot better documentation of the work done and parts replaced. What it is? Is one of the finest examples of the early "two lever" model Ts on the planet. That alone is enough to justify (to some that can afford it?) a lot of dollars. What it is not? Is well enough documented to truly support the claim to being any specific early two lever Ford. I said I will not take sides on this. But I will say, it very well may have some amount of car number two in there. Or it may not? I just do not know. The second lever replaces the reverse pedal. As I understand it, for reverse, one needs to operate the clutch by either pressing the low/clutch pedal, or pulling the brake/clutch lever halfway back at the same time as pulling the reverse lever! Switching to the three pedal one lever method was a considerable improvement! And you should look at the convoluted conglomeration of cams, detents, rods and levers it took to make that system work!

Pretty sure it is an Auburn. Some good friends have a 1917, this would be closer to 1920.

One can sure see the Lozier connection! A very good friend years ago had a 1915 Lozier.

Stutz Bearcat? Anything known about it? A friend had one, black, quite awhile ago. He died just about twenty years ago now. He was too young, ALS, a nasty way to go. Last I heard, his family still had the car. I got to follow it and him on a few club tours, always fun to see cars like that being driven as they were intended. We had a wonderful group that used to do a lot of special tours together. Quite often we would end up where a silent movie was being shown, usually with proper theatre organ accompaniment. Sometimes we went to Turk Murphy's "Earthquake McGoon's for his San Francisco Jazz music and dancing! I sure miss those days. We usually wore attire appropriate for the era of our cars, and attended club tours often as a group.

Ain't THAT the truth! I have seen a lot of Rolls Royce automobiles I would love to have, and known quite a few people that do have them. Including a few that are not wealthy. I have had a few opportunities to buy a Rolls Royce. Gotta tell you that I was tempted! But wisely talked myself out of the idea. Anything I could have managed to buy? I could have never gotten restored.

Very nice. I like to see this kind of artifact, especially if it is historically tied to a specific automobile! Thank you for sharing this.