wayne sheldon

I am a bit saddened to hear about your troubles from live bidding and the model T Ford. I had a center-door sedan about 25 years ago, and really wish I had kept it. That one looks pretty nice in the picture. Model T Fords are different, different than almost any other car one would likely be familiar with. Although other American cars of the era also used planetary type transmissions, few operated quite like the model T Ford. When teaching people to drive them, I always first tell them to forget everything they have learned about driving since the age of six. At six, one knew mommy or daddy sat behind the steering wheel and sort of turned it to guide the car in its direction, and pressed pedals on the floor, but did not really know what they did, and pulled or moved other levers and knobs, but again not knowing really what they did either. From that point. a Ford model T is one of the easiest cars ever built to learn to drive. One should remember, the T Ford was designed to be driven by people that had never driven an automobile before in their life. The next thing, is to find a big empty parking lot to practice in. Until one is used to the T's peculiarities, one needs space to not hit anything! It usually does not take long. The T model becomes second nature, a simple extension of one's self. I love nearly all automobiles from the earliest, to near the end of the 1920s. However, the model T will always have a special place in my life. I very much look forward to seeing your Humberette completed! Humber did build many wonderful automobiles over their years.

I would think posting a request for photos in the general discussion is a good idea. Linguistics is a fascinating, and sometimes frustrating, subject of study. Bad enough we have two cultures separated by a common language. Add dialects, regional colloquialisms, common words with different meanings in different work environments, usages that change over time, and a hundred other little things to muddy up the works. On a model T Ford forum I spend way too much time on (what can I say, I enjoy it), we often get into lengthy debates on the "correct words" for parts of the automobile. One of the worst pieces, on the whole automobile, is that (usually) metal panel that mounts below the body, between the frame and the running board. The two most populated camps are "splash apron" and "side apron", although there are a couple other options including "splash panel" and "side panel". It amazes me how entrenched some people are! One fellow is adamant that "splash apron" is absolutely incorrect, he often offers quotes out of a vintage parts book to support his claim. Others, are equally convinced that it is the one and only correct usage. However you phrase it, somebody won't like it. However, don't let that stop you. Just be clear about what it is you would like to see. Many people on this forum are really good about helping find information and good photos.

Unfortunately, I do not have any good pictures of cars with leather aprons. Photography is not one of my great talents. It has been a few years now since I actively toured with the clubs (must change that really soon!). I can picture in my mind a certain green body yellow/cream chassis horseless carriage that had the nicest leather side aprons I ever saw! But I have yet to find a way to scan my brain into the computer . And I do not know who owns that car either .

I have been enjoying reading your coverage of the repairs, and details of how you accomplish wonderful recreations of damaged bits and pieces. So many things you do are things I have been doing repairing the original pieces for my '15 Ford T runabout. Most people would buy the ready to use reproduction parts, but me? I like the original parts wherever I can. As for the leather aprons? I am in the same camp as the others that said reconsider this. I have seen several brass era/horseless carriage/veteran cars with leather aprons along the running boards and insides of wings (fenders in American). Properly done, they can look really sharp! There are several different types of leather that are meant for this type of use. I warn you though, I am NOT an expert on this! If you don't get good advice here (or locally to you?), I may know a couple people I can ask. For some uses, there is a special carriage leather that is sewn onto metal frameworks, and then shrunk tight. It is used in carriage and early automobile fenders and front dash panels. Another type remains stiff, and holds its shape without a framework. Any good carriage shop should be able to help find the right stuff. Both are available in a so-called "patent" finish that remains shiny black.

PFitz says "Sometimes, it means whatever was on the car when the present owner bought it, .... because they believe what the seller said, until you can show them concrete proof otherwise. And many times, even faced with concrete proof, several experts in full agreement, and obvious HUGE flaws in their logic? They still won't believe you. Yep. Been there, done that. Too many times.

This is a tough one. A lot of people here, including me, really do not like giving out estimates of value or critiquing other people's antique cars. And this car, unfortunately, is a bit tougher than many are. It is one of nearly a hundred (okay, exaggerating a bit, but at least about fifty makes) makes of cars in that odd ground, not common enough to have a devoted following and active marque clubs, not historically special enough (Stutz, Marmon, the three Ps etc) to have specialists both collectors and restorers, not pre-'16/brass era, not CCCA classic, too common to be rare, too rare to be common, you get the picture. Chandler does have some following, Cleveland, their lower priced companion car a bit less so. A lot of those many marques are good reliable cars of their era. They can be great fun to drive and excellent tour cars. Many potential buyers are scared off by the rarity and lack of club support, which is unfortunate, because if such a car is in decent mechanical condition, they are easy to work on, and most parts one is likely to need are available or easily adaptable from other cars. This car, except for that ridiculous radiator "ornament", from the outside appears to be a nice mostly original car. Nice original cars are popular right now. The patch paint on the side of the cowl could probably be cleaned up and made to look better without destroying the original exterior. (I would guess it had a radio antenna there?) The interior? I hate to say it. Not done correctly. The material is not correct era type. The colors are not right. And the way the seats are done, the piping, the width of the pleats? All incorrect, and a bit gaudy. I see that Tinindian slipped in while I was typing. But I was going to say about the same range for as is. Basically, I think you may be able to get about $5000 to $7500 tops as is. Restored, even very nicely, I doubt one could likely get more than about $13,000. And you cannot restore it for twice that. Much more than that? Buyers want pre'16 or CCCA classic, or a well supported popular car. My opinion, for whatever it is worth.

Among other things, these motors were used on chemical spray rigs (farming use) in the early '30s. I have part of a similar one stashed behind a storage shed myself. Unfortunately, a cousin tore it apart a long time ago and lost some important parts. I would love to GIVE what I have to anybody willing to come and get it. I don't even remember how much of it I have left, but I think I still have the original radiator (may or may not be repairable).

Mike M, Hopefully, these pictures will post okay. A computer nerd I am not. Unfortunately, this "car" was the victim of some bad restoration a few decades before I got it. The "restorer" did a few good things, like having an Amish wheelwright restore the wheels. On the other hand, they also lost several important original pieces which I now need to make replacements for. They also recorded NOTHING! While much of the chassis fits together nicely, they left no pictures of it in its before state. As it sits, it is just hanging together, modern bolts, bailing wire. There is more than what is shown in the pictures, but not not a lot. This never was a horse drawn carriage or wagon. the frame and suspension were blacksmith built for an automobile. The iron used was manufactured by one of several leading USA steel manufacturers of the 1890s, and they were sold out and ceased to exist in 1915. The motor is very crude, could even be a one-off build. However, I did through my research find a Canadian company that built a very similar engine for two years (late 1898 into early 1900). They found too much competition in the automobile engine market and dropped the idea to concentrate on the industrial and steam engines that they had been building for several years (they built some incredible BIG stuff!). The axles are a common steel light wagon axle, available for many years. The front was cut, and forge welded to make a steerable front axle. Information on how to do this (including Ackermann principals) were published in the "Horseless Age" magazine in 1897 if I recall correctly (I do have copies of the article). The wheels are also light wagon wheels. My supposition is that the wagon axles and wheels were used because of the weight and vibration expected for an automobile. Standard buggy axles and wheels would have never worked for very long (one of the common mistakes of made-up high-wheelers, although a few actual companies manufacturing such cars around 1906/'08 also did that. The wheel base and track are both sixty inch (about 150 cm if I am not mixing up my conversions?). I am not surprised you do not see many High-wheel automobiles in England. They were mostly an American phenomenon. History does show quite a few high wheel early experimental cars were built in Europe and Great Briton, as well as the USA. However, Europe and Great Briton had decent roads dating back to the late Roman Empire. There was good reason for automobiles to develop that could be driven on those roads. In America, however, early manufactured automobiles were also mostly built for cities because they had decent roads, whereas nearly all outlying areas had poor roads if any. But as the automobile industry grew, more and more people out in the country also wanted one. So there is a curious gap between the early experimental high wheel cars of the 1890s, and the common manufactured high wheel cars built mostly from 1907 to 1912. Holsman is considered the first significant production high-wheel automobile to hit the American marketplace, in 1902. A few others followed slowly until about 1907 when a dozen or more companies offered such cars here. By 1912, nearly fifty companies had entered and left that market, leaving barely a handful. Sears/Lincoln hung on until 1913, IHC light trucks (lorries) until about 1916. Most of those companies went broke. A few switched to so-called "conventional" automobiles. (I hope the three pictures I uploaded post okay?) I also hope I live long enough to get this thing restored!

I agree with the above comments. While better than most, it has a few telltale signs of being a made-up car. And clearly, it was never completed. I really wish I could go spend a couple hours looking it over very closely. I have an unknown-builder high-wheeler myself. So I am very interested in the little details, type of workmanship on various parts, materials used, holes where they should not be, and so forth. People did actually build such cars back in the early days of the automobile, and a whole cottage industry formed for a very few years providing people with the necessary parts to convert a common carriage into an automobile (Dykes of auto manuals fame started out selling catalog items that way about 1900!). There are a few known survivors of such cars. However, I do not believe that is one of them. Probably a few hundred such "horseless carriages" were built during the '30s/'40s/'50s. Actually, they still build them, they just call them "replica" or "tribute" cars. In the early days of the antique automobile hobby, quite a few people decided it would be fun to get into the hobby! It seems difficult to understand today. In those early years, the real things could be found in almost every town in the country! They could be had for a few dollars, sometimes even less! But a lot of people didn't "get" it. They saw pictures of a few cars in a parade, thought it would be fun, and set out to build their own. Old horse drawn carriages were a dime a dozen, usually, and any small gasoline motor would do. Crude, poorly thought out mountings were made. And, usually, a few parts off a model T Ford. A lot of those people simply did not realize that the idea was to find and save a "real" antique car. The motor on the car in question appears to be a small boat motor, probably from the 1910s. The carburetor is mid '10s. The motor mounting is typical "not-well-done". And of course, there is that model T hand crank (1920s version).

What PFitz says is important. Some years back I had a nice classic era car that had been in a major collection /museum for quite a few years. It had been through at least three other collectors before it came to me. All of them said it was a great running car and drove very nicely. However, I know none of them drove the car very much. I had had the car only about a week before I had checked through things myself. Two things, the rear end, and the distributor drive gears, did not have a drop of grease in them. One good club tour, with normal antique driving speeds, could have done a thousand dollars damage to that car. Fortunately, I checked before driving more than a few slow miles, and the car ran flawlessly for a couple thousand miles of wonderful club tours and outings. As for Metz? I do have a project pile for one, and have read quite a bit about them. If the one being considered is the one I think it is? I have not seen it in person, however, I have seen a few advertisement listings for the car. There are a few things not quite right on the car. Color is not right, but it does look good and some people wouldn't mind that. The car is missing (? not showing?) the belly pan. This is somewhat important on a Metz as the fan is cast in the flywheel, and without the belly pan, may not move enough air through the radiator. Some Metz owners put model T fans on them, and although not correct, seems to work fine. I have never driven one, but have talked with several owners that have toured with them quite a bit. Every owner I have personally known, liked the cars. As Horseless Carriages go, the Metz 22 is fairly fast, basically reliable, and really a kick to drive! On top of that, the engine is similar enough to a model T Ford in design and dimension that several important parts can be replaced by the model T part if needed (with some modification). You could do much worse for an antique. However, I would suggest having someone familiar with Metz automobiles look it over with you

I hope my comments won't be too far off topic, but here goes. In regards to the braking ability of most pre-1930 automobiles? People fear mechanical brakes because they do not understand them. Basic physics, weight of vehicle, two wheel brakes or four wheel brakes, and the relative footprint and condition of the tires dictate maximum braking ability and stopping distances at what speeds. Size and material types of the drums and shoes or bands have some lesser effects, and mostly affect the required amount of pedal pressure needed to make a stop. The most common problem with mechanical brakes is that most people do not understand the relationship of the various levers, cams, and other mechanical components of the system. PROPERLY adjusted, mechanical brakes can work very well. As an example, when I bought the 1915 Studebaker I used to have, the service brake could not stop the car from 20 mph in less than about a hundred yards (YIKES and DOUBLE YIKES!). A quick examination of the brake linkages revealed that their adjustment was atrocious, in part due to an incorrect brake rod that was a bit too short. A quick modification to the short rod, and a hour of adjustment, and the car would lock both rear wheels with only light pressure on the pedal. With only two wheel brakes on that car, it wasn't going to make you feel like it had four wheel power assisted disc brakes. But from 20 mph, it would stop in only slightly more than twenty feet. Definitely something I could live with. (As a clarification? Both those stopping distance tests were going on a very slight down hill. If I had gone the other direction? One could have just pushed in the clutch and stopped in somewhat over fifty feet.) As for the Cadillac in question? If I were ten to twenty years younger, not nearly as broke as I now am, and didn't have a half dozen projects already that need restoring (two of which I am working on!)? I would love to give $4000 for that Cadillac. But as things are right now, I won't live long enough to do more than half the project cars I now have. But then I always was a bit crazy and a sucker for large '20s sedans. For whatever it is worth? I hope a good home can be found for this car.

I do understand that. However, several areas of this forum are inhabited by many passionate people with mostly cars of the horseless and nickel age. You should have no trouble finding them.

Thank you for a good laugh! (I needed that!) And thank you for the link. I found it quite entertaining. When I read something a few years ago about this on Jewett automobiles? I pretty much dismissed it and tried to forget about it. However, when I read the question about this on another respectable antique automobile website a day and a half ago, I remembered. My short google search showed some questionable information, that (as I said) was curiously duplicated on a few different sites. So, I wondered. IS there anything to this? DID Jewett actually install such things? I have never seen one. However, I have seen a lot more Paige automobiles than I have ever seen Jewetts. Hopefully, at least a few Jewett owners can chime in with whether or not their cars have such a thing or not.

Hey there Chad! Don't forget some of your old friends on the model T site. And you may even see some here that you already know. They even let me post here from time to time! All kidding aside. I have known Chadwick (a little bit) since he was about his son's age. I knew his grandfather and grandmother, his mom, and two of his uncles fairly well. Chadwick should be a good addition to the AACA family. He might even admit to remembering me a little bit?

Model T Fords are great fun! There are many levels of interest for many different areas of interest in them. Speedsters where going 60 mph feels like doing a hundred! Quality of restorations from beaters to show winners.Some people enjoy just driving themselves close to home, others like tour in large events which are held all around the country every year these days. A few people do thousands of miles in a single year, many of those people do it again and again year after year! I have often said that the roughly thirty years from the late 1890s into the mid 1920s was the greatest single generational leap in all of human history, both technologically, and sociologically. No other hundred years saw so many technological advances in so short a time. How a significant percentage of the world's human population lived their daily lives changed more in those few decades than any other couple hundred years in human history. The automobile was both a cause and an effect of that tremendous change. As such, the automobile, and especially the model T Ford, are the ultimate icons of those few decades. The model T Ford also has an almost magical way of connecting its caretaker with history, both the caretaker's history and history in general. Model T people seem to become more aware of how changes affect people, and understand the world around them better for it. I was going to mention the annual meet being held in Arizona next month, but oldcarfudd beat me to it. If you can? I would suggest going for a day, and hang around some of the people. Also. look into a local club near you. Model T people are always looking for people to infect with their passion.

On another website earlier today, was a question about " the spiritualist amulets from the Paige-Detroit Jewett." The question may be more specifically about the Jewett companion cars built by Paige Detroit. I have heard of this before. However, I heave never seen anything definitive on the subject. A google search today resulted in a few websites that interestingly had the same couple of sentences almost word for word alike. Also interesting, every one of those websites were connected by site names beginning in "wik". Hmm. Supposedly, "all" Jewett automobiles had a dash plate, visible on the passenger's side, containing a mystical amulet which was to protect the passengers from harm while riding in the car. There has been a Paige in my family for more than fifty years now. I have met and corresponded with a few Paige and Jewett owners over those decades. I have never seen, or otherwise heard of an actual amulet in any of the cars. I have read of this in the recent past, but it was a mention that I didn't give much credibility to. With this new mention, I am getting curious. Myth? Legend? Fact? Or urban fantasy?

A couple points, some may help you to sell these. One. It was not Graham Paige in 1924 -1927. The distributor caps may be Graham Paige replacements sold for the earlier Paige automobiles. My original list of parts book for my '27 was published and sold by Graham Paige in 1928 after the companies were merged. Two. I cannot tell from your pictures if I could maybe use those or not. Not only are there no size references (a ruler laying alongside the caps would help quite a bit), but a couple photos dead-on straight give no perspective whatsoever. I don't think they are for a 6-45, but I can't really tell from pictures, lack of description, and no reference numbers. Paige built several six cylinder models between 1924 and 1927. If a car owner cannot tell what you have? They are not likely to buy it. Just trying to help.

A little new for my interests, but I am fairly certain those are all for a Model A Ford, 1929 through '31 (maybe '28, but '28 parts tend to be slightly different). Should be easy to find someone that needs those. Although they are common parts, model As tend to be driven a lot and many are very high mileage cars, so things like good spindles are always nice to get. Thank you for passing them along!

A couple/few decades ago, A fellow I knew through the local Horseless Carriage Club had one of these. He had a small collection of cars ranging from 1903 on up into what I considered modern cars. The cars were kept in several locations, including a vintage dealer's showroom. The McFarlan (no "d") roadster he had was beautifully restored with dark green body. and had been originally owned by a famous name that for the life of me I cannot recall at the moment. I think the McFarlan is still around, but I haven't seen him in about twenty years, and don't know for sure. Why am I reporting so little when I don't know much more about this one? Just because it was a close one. Around thirty years ago, a building he owned, and kept part of his collection in one half of, and rented the other half to a local shop business was accidentally set on fire by the renter. The McFarlan wasn't there at that time. However five cars were destroyed, including a 1950s Cadillac one-off factory show car, a 1914 (if I recall correctly) Simplex, a 1921 (if I recall correctly) Mercer touring car, and the only 1921 (I think) American touring car I have ever seen (an amazingly original car!). The fifth car I do not recall what it was offhand. The fire was so hot that all aluminum copper and brass was melted into puddles in the ashes.

Fifty years ago, Jack Passey told me to use a shiny new quarter to check the reflection. It works. However, everybody's eyes are not the same. And not all glass is alike. Over the years, I have met many people in the hobby that use the quarter and find it works very well. Other people have trouble with it. To test unknown glass for laminated safety plate. Look at a bright reflection at about a 45 degree angle. Most people will see One reflection with plate glass. However, there are actually two reflections with plate glass. The first reflection will be on the first outer surface of the glass. The second, and lighter or lessor, reflection, will be on the inner surface of the other side of the glass. Many people do not see this second reflection in part due to the diminishing affect (diffusion) of the reflection from inside the glass. This at least on most plate glass (the color and quality of glass does make a difference). On laminated safety plate glass, there are actually two thinner pieces of plate glass laminated together creating a stronger glass that cannot shatter into knife-like pieces. Laminated safety plate glass will have a first reflection on the first outer surface of the glass (just like plain old plate glass). There will also be a second reflection on the laminated surface of the second sheet (plate) of glass which will be almost as bright as the first reflection. If one looks carefully, and has the "eyes" to see it, there will also be a third reflection again on the inner surface of the far side of the second plate.There will actually be a fourth reflection on the inner surface of the first sheet of glass, however, it will also be diminished slightly by the inner glass diffusion, and, because the laminated material is very thin, that minor reflection and the brighter reflection on the laminated surface of the second sheet will be so close together that most people will not be able to perceive it. Over the years, I have told a few people that they should gather several old pieces of glass, both simple plate glass, and a few pieces of laminated safety plate glass. Using pieces that you can KNOW which they are, look at them in different lighting conditions to get a "feel" for how laminated looks as compared to simple plate. Remember, look at the reflections at an angle. The more angle, the more separation between the reflections (they WILL be very close together!). A quarter works. A shiny flat washer can work. A small light bulb, flashlight, Christmas tree string lamp are favored by other people. And a small candle flame also works very well (don't burn down the garage!). Remember, a small shiny object, or light, at an angle against the glass. Once you feel comfortable with seeing the reflections on known pieces of glass? Try it on that framed windshield you want to figure out. If it is safety plate? You will probably know in seconds. And by the way. Although I think Reo probably used laminated glass in the windshield in 1932? In most states, there was no law requiring replacement glass to be safety glass until much later ('50s I think?). So it is very possible that plate glass may have been installed later as a replacement if one was ever needed.

We are having similar issues on the model T forum I spend way too much time on. Some of our regulars have been complaining about their photographs on our site even being used by other people in ebay listings! (has happened several times!) Our wonderful chief moderator just a day ago removed a couple links in one thread at the request of the other website. It is a huge problem throughout the internet, and few people understand the copyright rules or intellectual property right laws. Any such suspicions should be immediately reported to the moderators. So, I will take this opportunity to say "THANK YOU!" to the moderators for this site! You all do an incredible job for which you do not get thanked often enough.

I just had to chuckle at the first one. About 45 years ago, an antique automobile friend of mine, his dad had a 1968 Porsche 911 (I think?), even about that color. My friend drove it some (maybe more than he should have). One night he went to a party (not something that I would have gone to), and headed home late in the wee hours of the morning. On a tight curve of a freeway cloverleaf, the tail heavy back end spun out and rolled the car several times. He and his dad parted the car out after the settlement with the insurance company. I suspect it looked very much like that one when they were done with it. Fortunately, my friend was almost unhurt. Even by his father. You know. I have often wondered if he may be reading this forum. Hey JP! You out there?

The early days of the automobile were filled with suppliers looking for manufacturers to sell to. Somewhere I have a list of several (I think eight?) different companies that offered engines to anyone wanting to build automobiles. The list was from before 1900. These included European companies like De Dion, as well as the Duryea Brothers and Orient. Another company offered planetary transmissions beginning in 1899. Several companies sold axles, wheels, and as mentioned by 1912Staver, body builders. Wilson was one of the largest suppliers of early bodies, building for both Cadillac and Ford as well as a dozen other smaller companies in 1903. Restoring some of the really early cars is not as difficult as one might believe. So many parts were used by so many companies, that if one needed a front axle (for example)? One may be found from any of several cars that will not only work, but may actually be correct. The last time I went to the Bakersfield swap meet (about six years ago), there were at least three nearly complete decent front axles from the 1900 to 1904 vintage there for sale. There were enough pieces of single chain-drive rear axles to probably put together three rear ends. None of those parts were cheap (one fellow had both a front axle and most of a single chain-drive rear end in rough but restorable condition for about a thousand dollars). But they were available. There is a lot of fascinating history in those early years. Amazing efforts. Fabulous failures. Fortunes lost, or made. The daring do of racing drivers. Dozens of names we all know. And a hundred others that at least we as antique automobile historians should know. I have an early gasoline carriage (unknown builder). I hope I live long enough to restore it. Researching it has been a fascinating trek down history's path. I have a list of over 400 individuals and small companies that built one or a few experimental automobiles BEFORE 1900. The list does not include any of the people that made it into even minor levels of manufacturing. Nearly a thousand more different people tried their hand at automobile building by the end of 1905. By 1900, there were several companies that offered nearly any component needed to construct an automobile yourself. Dyke ( later became the Dykes manuals) was but one of them.

Quote " Serious question ... why would you do this? " Serious answer. Technically, some states require this by law. However, many hobbyists do not like or want such markings on the windows of their collector car that did not have them to begin with. By the way, one good glass shop I used to use told me that the little marking is called a "bug". He cautioned me, that his license was in jeopardy by state law if he did not put the bug on the window of a motor vehicle. He then replaced my window (without the bug), I paid him cash, and I got no receipt. I was happy. He has long since retired, and I still praise him for keeping my car right. Another way. Take your glass in, tell them it is for a curio shelf, dimensions are critical to fit in the framework. Ask for no bug, or they may do it anyway. Then install into your car yourself. Curio shelves are not required to have a bug in the corner. If you are replacing unbroken plate glass windows in a car early enough to have had plate glass originally? Tell them you are concerned about safety for your grandchildren.

In an attempt to reduce confusion, I shall attempt to post a link to the old thread (same original poster) which has some good pictures. It looks like a very nice and rare (generally overused word, may be appropriate with this car) automobile. I have had a fondness for Paige automobiles for a long time. It should have the chance for a long-time home/caretaker. (I cannot afford it) I hope I kept this all straight?!