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Bud Tierney

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Everything posted by Bud Tierney

  1. As mentioned, Jewett was part of Paige-Detroit, later Paige, and when the Paige died in 1927 it was sold to the Graham Bros, who reorganized as Graham-Paige (Std Cat)... There's a graham-paige.com website; if you're lucky, that's the place to start for info, altho it may not cover Jewett as, technically, it was not "Graham built"... Parts availability depends-- Std cat says Paige "...built all its own engines...thru WWI years...Paiges of the Twenties carried Continentals..."... The point here is that if your 1925 has a Paige built engine it may well be harder to find parts for than a Cont'l engine...conversely, Paige could've used a Cont'l, or other, design that they built under license, and the same or very similar engines may've been used in other makes... A 1930 McCord gasket catalog lists some confusing/contradictory engine info: UNDER JEWETT: Jewett Motor, 6cyl, Passenger. 22-24. Paige Light 6, 1918-21. Models 42, 44 (two motors, 31/8x5 and 31/4x5)... Jewett Motor, 6cyl, Passenger. Model 1923-25. Paige 6-65. 1926-27, a 31/2x5. The Jewett "New Day" 1926-27 models are shown as having Cont'l motors... UNDER PAIGE: Paige, 6cyl, Passenger: ten or so models 1915-25 with 5 different Cont' s, and a Rutenber, plus one "Jewett" (contradicting Std Cat re WWI period engines)... Paige Motor, 6cyl. Passenger. 1926-27. Jewett 6cyl 1925-26...the 31/4x5 above, WHICH HAD A CYL HEAD ANd PoSSIBLY ENGINE CHANGE IN LATE 1926 (you'll note this doesn't match listings under Jewett...)... AS mentioned above, they apparently used the other parts from "vendors", and those parts could easily be off-the-shelf parts used in other makes, unless built by said vendors to Paige specs... Parts catalogs, of course, are hardly definitive references, as you can see; a couple other period catalogs do agree to the extent that the 25 Jewett is shown with "own" engine, altho this, too, is unreliable as many m'f'r's who used vendor engines passed them off as in-house designs...With sympathy, Bud
  2. Yes, you're right---at least some of the early sealed beams had a sealed-in bulb; I recall seeing them and wondering if it was some kind of early hybrid light (don't recall make), but can't say if that was true over all sealed beam makers or not. General note: if sealed beams seem dim, check grounds first--for some reason at least the early sealed beams were susceptible to dimming if grounds not good.
  3. OOPS---garradmoon@montes@flash.net, or montesequipment.com
  4. CB: Haven't been in site for awhile; just noticed your starter post... While I'm sure Laydens info is reliable (I'm assuming he has a starter ref independent of engine makers ID)...which cont'l is in your 1922 seems to be a matter of who you ask... (A) Std Cat US Cars shows a 4 and 6 for 1922: the 22-K-4 4cyl and the 22-7-R for the 6. Since my old catalogs list a Lycoming K or KB for the 4, we can probably assume it was the Cont 7R in the 6 (the 7W is listed for various 1918-19 6s)... ( 1930 McCord gasket catalog lists a model 60 6cyl 1919-24 using Cont'l 7R and/or?? 8R---the 7R seems to be 31/4 bore, the 8R 33/8. A number of cars that used the 7R are listed this way for the engines used (...7R-8R...). The catalogs do not state if options or the 8R replaced the 7R... © a 1924 wrist pin catalog lists 6cyl LM, FH, KH, SK 1919-22 with the 7R, the 6-60, D, H, R, S, SS-L for 23-24 using the 8R... (D) If that isn't confusing enough, a couple period catalogs list a model 7R (no years shown) using a Cont'l 7N (that McCord catalog lists the 7N as a solid head engine--no removable cyl head)... While you probably have the 7R, take off whatever numbers and letters stamped or cast on the engine and try Garrad (Gerry/Jerry) Moon at Montes in Chicago (obsolete Cont'l parts dealers) who may be able to IF your engine and may have suggestions on a starter...with sympathy, Bud
  5. My set had a nervous breakdown awhile back, and since has transmitted in GB instead of KB...got inst's here somewhere to reduce size, but never get around to it... Would be redundant anyhow, as the club will have the reliable info you need, as well as be the most accurate source...parts catalogs are often weak reeds to lean on... If for some reason club can't help may just post; for small stuff easier than taking pic, trans to cpmptr, trying to transmit, etc (low-tech here!).
  6. King Products K-1140 lists as .810 OD, 5 5/32 Length Under Head (whatever that means) and "Pin type" (other types are Threaded, Plain, and Spec. (special?))... There're several quite close: same diam and Pin type, only slightly longer...grind 'em off?? You'll have to find out if all "pin type" are the same---while there's no catalog section for king bolt pins (bushings, yes, but no "pins"), that's not proof they're all exactly alike... Incidentally, king bolt spec list is also headed "steering knuckle bolts"... Have you been talking to the Hupp club people on this?? Some other period Hupp king pins are very close... In case you want to drive it, find a nice dusty farm road--the dustier the better--you'll be amazed at how quickly a little dirt and dust'll take up the slack in your pins, and I speak from misspent youth experience...you didn't make the mistake of greasing them and/or your tie rod ends, did you??? That's often the best way to bring on the wobblies...With sympathy, Bud
  7. Just noticed your inquiry.... March 36 King Products (they must've issued these every month !??!) has a note on the tie rod ends: "...tie rod socket and intermediate rod MUST BE INSTALLED TOGETHER..." (their capitals)...TWO SETS are listed for "...1934 417W, 421J..." can send specs, and for king pins, if wanted...the socket fits a whole array of cars, only the intermediate rod makes the sets different... All tie rod sections seem to be headed "Tie Rod Sockets and Intermediate Rods" Your king pins ("king bolts" in the catalog) show for, as mentioned above, 34-35 417W and 517W.... Remember parts co's sometimes devised "universal" parts that'd fit/work without always being perfect factory duplicates, and, conversely, give parts that'd actually interchange their own different numbers for different cars... Any halfway decent bearing outfit should be able to furnish or match your bearings, unless they're some weird oddities...
  8. On your starter problem---if it's still jumping out of engagement and spinning, pucker up and pull the tin plate off the bottom of the flywheel housing---if there isn't one, or any way to look at the flywheel teeth, you'll have to pull the starter and look in the hole--- What you don't want to see as someone slowly turns the motor over (plugs out) is places with badly worn ring gear teeth... While 6s are better than 4s (4s tend to stop in four places, 6s in six, concentrating starting wear in those places) they do wear enough that the starter gear will slip out of engagement and motor until you release the key...Ring gears are cheap, compared to the labor cost of R&R flywheel...hope I'm wrong If the teeth look good try washing the Bendix well; sometimes they just get crudded up.
  9. Looked at those PW spec lists; they were 1919/20, not 1918...1919 didn't list the trans #, but the 1920 matched the 1919 with the addition of the B-L trans #s: 3/4T #21 with B-L 35 3 speed 11/2T #20 with same trans 21/2T #19 with B-L 35 but shown as 4 speed 31/2T #18 with B-L 50 4 speed There wasn't any column for aux trans. I didn't mean to imply earlier that Watson didn't build over-the-road trucks, which I assume the above are. Coachbuilt has a nice little piece on Watson if you haven't seen it...
  10. You might try sites like ATHS, HCEA and the old-Cat sites---I believe Watson made a line of 4WD trucks that'd be used in heavy const, mining, logging etc...Mroz says the early models (1917-19???) were short wheelbase "tractor" types that used Brown-Lipe clutches and transmissions.... I've 1918 and 1919 Power Wagon specs I can check in the AM, but under trans etc it doesn't give any model #s... Watson died 1925 per Mroz; don't know if any clubs exist... Originally Watson Wagon Company of Canastota, NY, name changes 1919 to Watson Products Cptn, and in 1923 to Watson Truck Cptn ... Maybe local Hist Soc/Pub Lib might have some old company literature???
  11. Many thxx to all who took the time and effort to reply... My curiosity piqued again, I posted the question on the Lugs/Cleats forum at smokstak (I, too, spend too much time there!)... Turns out that Guy Fay, who posts there, is obviously a Case Guru, and was kind enough to link my question to an earlier smokstak thread that included, among much other Case history info, the article linked above and a full page ad on the Plow Works truck, generally listed as 1920-23... I still have to go through that old thread again, as so far I've seen nothing that explains Georgano's Case Threshing Machine Co truck, supposedly 1910 or so to 1924. altho it's quite possible I've overlooked something... I've assumed the Plow Works truck was relatively low prod and marketed primarily, if not wholly, to the farm/ag community, as it, nor the TM Co truck, appear in any of my old parts catalogs or in the 1920 Power Wagon truck spec lists...
  12. Well, Jon, if you're still out there--- Seems I did some digging around on this in 2007, when I was first getting interested in old trucks (not the trucks as such but which US vendors engines were in them)... Run search on aths of J I Case Plow Works Truck (or was that a Google search??--it's late here again) and a thread by tseaborg 1-2-07 should come up; ignore the Triumph etc comments. My comments are under "clueless", one of my handles at the time, and there are also comments re' a Threshing Machine Co truck in a link to a 11-22-06 smokstak Lugs/Cleats thread. Sorry don't have time to dig around any further--there should be comprehensive Case history books for both companies available...
  13. Something about that Case truck thumbnail bothered me (oldtractors-engines.blogspot.com), so dug out my Case notes... The thumbnail says the Case Threshing Machine Co took the option on the Stephenson truck in 1912, failed to exercise it, and later "...returned to trucks in 1915, building them into the 20s.."... But AQ's list showed the Case truck built by the Case Plow Works 1920-23...The Threshing Machine Co and the Plow Works, although both owned by heirs/family members of J I Case, had been two totally separate companies during those periods... It's quite possible the originator of the thumbnail confused the two companies, as many did at the time and since, or may not've realized they were separate companies rather than divisions or similar... No sources were listed in that account, so there's also any possible discrepancies in the dates; such discrepancies are all too common in recollections of earlier years...
  14. Jon: Just noticed your post; haven't been in the site for a few days... Pulled out my trusty Mroz--no mention!! Pulled out my trusty AQ "5000 Marques", and there it was in the truck m'f'r's list: Case, mfd by JI Case Plow Works 1920-23...Mroz is usually pretty reliable... Found a thumbnail, saying Case bought an option on Stephenson Mtr Trk Co in 1912 but apparently didn't exercise it; per Mroz Stephenson failed in 1913, and his mention makes no reference to Case. The thumbnail I found went on to say Case returned to trucks in 1920, building trucks until 1923, but gave no other info... My suggestions would be to post on the Case tractor forums and the old-truck forums like ATHS; there's also a pretty good old car and truck engine forum on smokstak... If you're close to a decent pub lib there may be a book or two on Case history that might mention their truck forays... I assume you know the Case Mtr Car Co of New Bremen, OH,, who also built trucks 1910-11 or so had (per Mroz) no connection to JI Case
  15. COMMODORE: Thxx again for the reply and links. The history link I hadn't seen, but if you had scrolled down to the Trucks That Used Cont'ls section on the other you would've found my contributions... Also thanks for the reminder it was there; I'd forgotten about it, and going thru the later comments saw several I might've been helpful on. Will try to follow it now. You're probably right about no complete list existing; my list (limited to Automotive, Ind'l and Power Units, and made up primarily from my old parts catalogs engines lists) is lying fallow as I got bogged down in trying to equate the power units with the engines they used (some P- were direct number designations but many apparently had their own P- numbers not related to the Automotive/Ind'l numbers).
  16. COMMODORE: many thxx for correction and heads-up. Do you have a copy, and if so, does it have anything like an engine list?? I have a lot of gaps in b/s on the earlier engines...the history of the company itself is not really of interest... LIB: many thxx for clarification; at least Alan knows what's in the car. A 1930 gasket catalog shows Cont'l used a combination of numbers for OE gasket part numbers: the engine model and another letter-number (V4E-200/201 etc for the V4 engine) AND X-3 digit numbers, so the RB numbers could well be Cont'ls OE casting/parts numbers, as you speculated.
  17. I just remembered I was told about (or saw mentioned somewhere) a book about Continental---as best I recall it was titled "Continental And Its Engines". Several efforts over the years to locate a copy (inquires to EBay, Alibris, Abebooks, Amazon and Autolit, probably; if any other auto lit sites can't recall) never ran a copy down, so I may have the title wrong. Pub lib here no help; didn't run nationwide search, and have no idea if, if it exists, it might be helpful. I may've decided that if autolit didn't have a copy it might not exist...they have a tremendous inventory, and they think very highly of every piece...
  18. (Sigh) another senior moment--forgot to mention that if it's any consolation, eyeballed my (incomplete) engine lists for the major independent engine m'f'r's for any "RB", and didn't find anything likely... Beaver had an RB, but it was 53/4 and/or 6x7 (a number of older engines were issued in two bores, sometimes one for gas and one for kero), a bit large for yours... Buda had a period R, 31/2 bore, but no RB, and I don't think Buda penetrated the luxury car market to any extent... Lycoming had an R, either 3x or 31/4x (catalogs don't always agree) but a gasket catalog says it's en bloc... Wauk had an R but no RB, and very little auto penetration... Wisconsin had an RB/RBU, but probably later and, again, a 5' bore, a bit large... Not that there weren't innumerable (well, at least a dozen or two) other engine builders going at the time, some of which may never've gotten into production, but it's unlikely Gabriel would've chosen an untried builder...
  19. Alan: Sorry, can't be of any further help other than to suggest another old Cont'l possible contact: P A Ross Machinery in Dallas has been mentioned as helpful with old Cont'ls--parossmachinery.com...forgot to mention them originally... Have reviewed my period catalogs: same answer--just that one listing of an "R" giving piston and ring info (and no way of telling if the "RB" was a variant or a completely different engine)--nothing on any RB, but absence of proof does not prove proof of absence, or however it goes... There is a much later R800, but it's an 8cyl, another completely different engine. There's also an almost moden set of 6cyl R truck engines...R6513, R6602 etc..the "6" the number of cyl's, the 513/602 the CID. If any were sold as non-automotive (Ag, Ind'l, Const eqpmt etc) and Cont'l followed their 40s/50s60s?? terminology, they'd be R513/R602 etc, and any free-standing power units would probably be P some letter hyphen 513/602 etc... The above is not because I think you'd confuse 6s and 8s, but in case someone answering your inquiries gets confused in the numbers...With sympathy, Bud
  20. Al: Just remembered didn't answer your question re' HP---no, don't think any of my catalogs ID or rate engines by HP, probably because it's so variable... There was an original system which tried to rate HP by CID, and I believe the Auto M'f'r's Assn used a formula to try to tame the wilder claims... Presently, with BHP/Dyno HP, it varies with how tight you want to wind it up, and all too often, for those who want the highest reading, with the engine on a stand, bare of any power-robbing accessories... While some engine makers advertised a specific HP---Model 4s unit power plant 22HP w/3 speed trans, and 30, 35. 40 HP w/4spd trans---many stated a range: Beaver 6cyl 33/4x5 40-45HP (Auto Buyers Ref 1912/13 courtesy Googlebooks). Like a lot of other pursuits, with old cars you find the more you know the more you realise how much you don't know...
  21. Al: Unfortunately, lots of things about the orphans remain murky, at least without research, and sometimes---too often---even then... Std Cat says a few early cars used Beaver engines (1906/7) "... but soon Kissels would be virtually all Kissel made..." Coachbuilt's nice thumbnail on Kissel isn't any more help. but the club (kisselkar.net) should be able to tell you exactly. My old catalogs are spotty on Kissel (low prod, own engines, not much incentive to carry special parts??): 1917 Rings---Kissel trucks only, no direct engine ID 1924/25 Piston---cars only, all "own" 1925 Tings---3 models (car? truck?) all "own" 1924 Wrist pin---no mention (3 pgs cars, 41/2 pgs trucks, fine print listings) 30 Wrist Pins---teens cars, earliest 1914 into 1918, all "own" , but 1919 100 Point 6 shows a Cont'l 7W., but that's long past your period...(later models went to some Lyc's etc). Trucks are no better: Mroz says by 1910 using Wauks and Wiscs, but one catalog shows several with "own"... Another problem is that, at a glance, a lot of engines look alike, especially when you're just browsing and not trying to notice specific differences...With sympathy, Bud
  22. LIB: I stand corrected; so much for mental free-wheeling. The "R" shown in a 1917 ring catalog lists it as 41/4 bore with a 4 ring piston, but nothing else. Do you know if your RB has the same bore?? If so, it could be a variant. Unfortunately I have nothing showing the "R"s stroke, and only that one listing for the "R"...
  23. Well, fools rush in, they say... Cursory Googling the Gabriel failed to bring up prices (or much else), except for an odd note on the forgottenbooks site (a page of auto related snippets): "...1650 to 4000 "Gabriel" Gabriel Auto Co, Cleveland 3 models chassis only..." If those were, in fact, chassis only prices, I'd be surprised if that was a Cont'l...while I'm not pretending to be well versed in Cont'ls, my impression is that they didn't penetrate the upscale auto market with their 4s... LIBs post is also intriguing...while Cont'l did build a period "R" 4cyl, I don't have an "RB" on my Cont'l list (which, admittedly, is far from complete and undoubtedly omits many engines, particularly low prod specialty engines) and "RB 610" doesn't sound like the Cont'l serial #s I've read... For some far out mental connections, "LI Bentley" popped up "Long Island Bentley", which brought up the American & British Engine Co, which I've always meant to research... In research for another mystery I was stunned by the number of 4cyl inlines available in these earlier years, having been, in my younger years, interested in more modern (30s/40s etc) periods, and thinking of the OOs/early teens as wholly comprised of 1 and 2 cyl engines......
  24. While EBay probably has a batch of old Cont'l engine ads with illus, and Googling for them will turn up ads in period auto etc magazine, a 1917 ring catalog lists some 40 or so Cont'l engines, some undoubtedly variations of a particular model, and the question would be how accurate and/or representative ad illus's or photos of particular engines would be for all in the line... RO's point is very well taken, unless you're just collecting pix/illus of old engines... Monte's in Chicago is generally considered the place to start for parts/info/sympathy, as the case may be, for obsolete Cont'ls...while their information on older (teens/20s) models is incomplete, it's probably the best easily available...for a prospective purchase, you'll want to know if your engine was a more "popular" model, maybe used in several makes, or a low-production specialty model... Send pix (if possible) and all stamped/cast/embossed numbers, plus make, model, year of car to Garrad (Jerry/Gerry) Moon at garradmoon@montes@flash.net, or montesequipment.com.
  25. Hazard Motor M'f'g Co, Rochester, NY---don't have much on them (no in-depth research) possibly primarily marine engine builder (ads in Motor Boating, etc)... Apparently built the "Silent" marine engine 1911 only?? per post on oldmarineengine.com... 1913 or so introduced Ergon line of Comm'l Car (Truck) engines (various ads)... 1917 ring catalog lists six Hazard engines, all 4s (not listed as marine engines) from 33/4 to 4" bores; Hazard apparently issued several of their engines, using the same designation, in two bores per 1913 Power Wagon ad (gasoline and kero??)...years listed in that 1917 catalog were 1909-15 Apparently not a high volume builder; that 1917 ring catalog is my only catalog that lists Hazard engines; none of mine 1917. 24. 25. 30, 1933 lists Ergon or Silent.
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