Bud Tierney

I just remembered I was told about (or saw mentioned somewhere) a book about Continental---as best I recall it was titled "Continental And Its Engines". Several efforts over the years to locate a copy (inquires to EBay, Alibris, Abebooks, Amazon and Autolit, probably; if any other auto lit sites can't recall) never ran a copy down, so I may have the title wrong. Pub lib here no help; didn't run nationwide search, and have no idea if, if it exists, it might be helpful. I may've decided that if autolit didn't have a copy it might not exist...they have a tremendous inventory, and they think very highly of every piece...

(Sigh) another senior moment--forgot to mention that if it's any consolation, eyeballed my (incomplete) engine lists for the major independent engine m'f'r's for any "RB", and didn't find anything likely... Beaver had an RB, but it was 53/4 and/or 6x7 (a number of older engines were issued in two bores, sometimes one for gas and one for kero), a bit large for yours... Buda had a period R, 31/2 bore, but no RB, and I don't think Buda penetrated the luxury car market to any extent... Lycoming had an R, either 3x or 31/4x (catalogs don't always agree) but a gasket catalog says it's en bloc... Wauk had an R but no RB, and very little auto penetration... Wisconsin had an RB/RBU, but probably later and, again, a 5' bore, a bit large... Not that there weren't innumerable (well, at least a dozen or two) other engine builders going at the time, some of which may never've gotten into production, but it's unlikely Gabriel would've chosen an untried builder...

Alan: Sorry, can't be of any further help other than to suggest another old Cont'l possible contact: P A Ross Machinery in Dallas has been mentioned as helpful with old Cont'ls--parossmachinery.com...forgot to mention them originally... Have reviewed my period catalogs: same answer--just that one listing of an "R" giving piston and ring info (and no way of telling if the "RB" was a variant or a completely different engine)--nothing on any RB, but absence of proof does not prove proof of absence, or however it goes... There is a much later R800, but it's an 8cyl, another completely different engine. There's also an almost moden set of 6cyl R truck engines...R6513, R6602 etc..the "6" the number of cyl's, the 513/602 the CID. If any were sold as non-automotive (Ag, Ind'l, Const eqpmt etc) and Cont'l followed their 40s/50s60s?? terminology, they'd be R513/R602 etc, and any free-standing power units would probably be P some letter hyphen 513/602 etc... The above is not because I think you'd confuse 6s and 8s, but in case someone answering your inquiries gets confused in the numbers...With sympathy, Bud

Al: Just remembered didn't answer your question re' HP---no, don't think any of my catalogs ID or rate engines by HP, probably because it's so variable... There was an original system which tried to rate HP by CID, and I believe the Auto M'f'r's Assn used a formula to try to tame the wilder claims... Presently, with BHP/Dyno HP, it varies with how tight you want to wind it up, and all too often, for those who want the highest reading, with the engine on a stand, bare of any power-robbing accessories... While some engine makers advertised a specific HP---Model 4s unit power plant 22HP w/3 speed trans, and 30, 35. 40 HP w/4spd trans---many stated a range: Beaver 6cyl 33/4x5 40-45HP (Auto Buyers Ref 1912/13 courtesy Googlebooks). Like a lot of other pursuits, with old cars you find the more you know the more you realise how much you don't know...

Al: Unfortunately, lots of things about the orphans remain murky, at least without research, and sometimes---too often---even then... Std Cat says a few early cars used Beaver engines (1906/7) "... but soon Kissels would be virtually all Kissel made..." Coachbuilt's nice thumbnail on Kissel isn't any more help. but the club (kisselkar.net) should be able to tell you exactly. My old catalogs are spotty on Kissel (low prod, own engines, not much incentive to carry special parts??): 1917 Rings---Kissel trucks only, no direct engine ID 1924/25 Piston---cars only, all "own" 1925 Tings---3 models (car? truck?) all "own" 1924 Wrist pin---no mention (3 pgs cars, 41/2 pgs trucks, fine print listings) 30 Wrist Pins---teens cars, earliest 1914 into 1918, all "own" , but 1919 100 Point 6 shows a Cont'l 7W., but that's long past your period...(later models went to some Lyc's etc). Trucks are no better: Mroz says by 1910 using Wauks and Wiscs, but one catalog shows several with "own"... Another problem is that, at a glance, a lot of engines look alike, especially when you're just browsing and not trying to notice specific differences...With sympathy, Bud

LIB: I stand corrected; so much for mental free-wheeling. The "R" shown in a 1917 ring catalog lists it as 41/4 bore with a 4 ring piston, but nothing else. Do you know if your RB has the same bore?? If so, it could be a variant. Unfortunately I have nothing showing the "R"s stroke, and only that one listing for the "R"...

Well, fools rush in, they say... Cursory Googling the Gabriel failed to bring up prices (or much else), except for an odd note on the forgottenbooks site (a page of auto related snippets): "...1650 to 4000 "Gabriel" Gabriel Auto Co, Cleveland 3 models chassis only..." If those were, in fact, chassis only prices, I'd be surprised if that was a Cont'l...while I'm not pretending to be well versed in Cont'ls, my impression is that they didn't penetrate the upscale auto market with their 4s... LIBs post is also intriguing...while Cont'l did build a period "R" 4cyl, I don't have an "RB" on my Cont'l list (which, admittedly, is far from complete and undoubtedly omits many engines, particularly low prod specialty engines) and "RB 610" doesn't sound like the Cont'l serial #s I've read... For some far out mental connections, "LI Bentley" popped up "Long Island Bentley", which brought up the American & British Engine Co, which I've always meant to research... In research for another mystery I was stunned by the number of 4cyl inlines available in these earlier years, having been, in my younger years, interested in more modern (30s/40s etc) periods, and thinking of the OOs/early teens as wholly comprised of 1 and 2 cyl engines......

While EBay probably has a batch of old Cont'l engine ads with illus, and Googling for them will turn up ads in period auto etc magazine, a 1917 ring catalog lists some 40 or so Cont'l engines, some undoubtedly variations of a particular model, and the question would be how accurate and/or representative ad illus's or photos of particular engines would be for all in the line... RO's point is very well taken, unless you're just collecting pix/illus of old engines... Monte's in Chicago is generally considered the place to start for parts/info/sympathy, as the case may be, for obsolete Cont'ls...while their information on older (teens/20s) models is incomplete, it's probably the best easily available...for a prospective purchase, you'll want to know if your engine was a more "popular" model, maybe used in several makes, or a low-production specialty model... Send pix (if possible) and all stamped/cast/embossed numbers, plus make, model, year of car to Garrad (Jerry/Gerry) Moon at garradmoon@montes@flash.net, or montesequipment.com.

Hazard Motor M'f'g Co, Rochester, NY---don't have much on them (no in-depth research) possibly primarily marine engine builder (ads in Motor Boating, etc)... Apparently built the "Silent" marine engine 1911 only?? per post on oldmarineengine.com... 1913 or so introduced Ergon line of Comm'l Car (Truck) engines (various ads)... 1917 ring catalog lists six Hazard engines, all 4s (not listed as marine engines) from 33/4 to 4" bores; Hazard apparently issued several of their engines, using the same designation, in two bores per 1913 Power Wagon ad (gasoline and kero??)...years listed in that 1917 catalog were 1909-15 Apparently not a high volume builder; that 1917 ring catalog is my only catalog that lists Hazard engines; none of mine 1917. 24. 25. 30, 1933 lists Ergon or Silent.

KBT---quick, before something unfortunate happens to the elderly gentleman, ask "...an IH what??..." (they built trucks and all kinds of motorized Ag etc eqpmt)...AND what makes him think it's a Cont'l... I don't recall an old Cont 4 in the truck lines (some old Wauk 4s, yes); a very cursory eyeballing of a couple handy catalogs finds the little Cont Y4069 and Y4112 4cyls in some 38-40 or so Combines and Hay Balers, and a couple Farmalls used a GD193, but I think that's a diesel (altho there was a G193 gas version) and I assume you mean a gas engine... That said, I don't follow IH, so I don't know a lot more than I do (think) I know...

OK, I'll bite---why bury a car (or any other piece of eqpmt)??? With broken down stuff, one generally assumes whatever it is'll be handy for some part or piece in the future, especially on a farm or ranch... Tax authority taxes anything above ground??

Just noticed your several years old plea for Ujoint Disc catalogs...don't get into site much and don't believe I've ever been in this forum... If still looking, check old fan belt catalogs on EBay...I have a 1930 HiLaB fan belt catalog (HiLaB Products Company, Indianapolis) which has, in the back, among other rubber products , a rubber/fabric Disc alphabetical listing by makes using their discs, a listing of makes by their disc numbers, a list of the dimensions of their discs (OD, ID, Thick, # of holes, size of hole and bolt hole circle) AND the same for their discs for Mags, gens and Pumps. With sympathy, Bud

Looking up the Dan Patch in the Std Cat took me to the Savage car (1914); Savage Motor Car Co, Detroit, was formed by men named Cummings, Taylor and Robert W Fishback (R.W.Fiskback in the Hercules (1914-15) listing, in which he was also involved)... Both Hercules and Savage literature referred to Fishback as a world renowned engineer, well known in Europe, but Std Cat describes him as "...a small time Detroit engine builder..." There was a Savage 4cyl, 4cycle water cooled vertical inline 3x4 engine announced in several autp periodicals in 1914, and I believe at least one small 1914 ad (no specs but a poor pic) for the engine, although the published pieces, with specs, talk of coming into production rather than being produced, by the Savage Motor Co, which had temporary offices in Chicago... A cursory Googling turned up nothing tying Robt W Fishback or the Savage Motor Car Co to the Savage engine; has anyone here run across Fishback or the Savage engine before??? This's just idle engine ID curiosity; don't waste a lot of time on it...

There's also Automobile Qtlys The American Car Since 1775 AKA 5000 Marques, my copy a second edition 1976 but I don't know if updated from original 1971...the car index has a supplement of cars announced but apparently never built; it also has an American and Canadian TRUCK index as well as an index of truck "possibles". No thumbnails, just names, addresses, dates, but a nice reference, laced with all kinds of other info. Georgano probably has something comparable on World Cars, World Trucks, but his books are outside my budget range; I do have his little Comm'l Veh 1830-1964 book, just names, addreesses, dates, types, no thumbnails. No, I haven't compared my AQ with my Std Cat; I thought I might whwn I retired, but now that I'm retired I never have any time...

The american-automobiles.com website on the above car/cyclecar (sources differ) attributes it's Badger engine to the Christensen Engineering Co, Milw, who did build a line of industrial harizontal engines and farm type water cooled engines... However, it appears from references in Carette Vol's 1 and 2, other period sources, etc, that the engine was actually to be produced in Oshkosh by the Badger Motor Co of Oshkosh, one of the entities of the Termaat & Monahan/Fahrney/Universal Motors tangle... Ziebell was employed by Termaat & Monahan, marine engine builders, who were involved in the TM and TMF high-wheelers; Std Cat says that Badger M'f'g Co was formed to market the improved TMF, and that Ziebell cars were produced in their shops. The Badger engine is described and pictured as a 4cyl 4cycle inline bloc water cooled 21/2x31/2, the right size for a cyclecar/light car engine. As any production of the Ziebell seems problematic, it's possible the Badger engine never got past prototype, assuming the period illustration was actually of an extant engine. I saw no contact info on the am-auto site, so am posting here for the record.

An announcement in the 10-20-1915 Motor World (pg 43) stated that Caille Perfection Motor Co, longtime builder of marine engines, had produced a light 6 cyl for low priced cars, desc as 31/2x5, 35HP/1500 but maximum speed at 2250, detachable head, side valves, 3 mains and splash-pressure lubrication. I can't recall hearing/reading of a Caille car engine, but there's lots I haven't heard/read about, and lots I have that I can no longer recall!! To save rummaging thru endless Caille hits, does anyone here recall anything about their car engine, which may or may not've actually been put in a car?? Any comments appreciated; many thxx!!

On our old jalopies with the open crankcase ventilation system as described by JB above, on slow pulls uphill, or even general running, it'd stifle us with the blowby vapors coming up into the cab, so we'd just run a rubber hose from the slanted outlet up to a hole we'd cut in the air cleaner...always seemed to work fine (or perhaps our engines were so worn out we couldn't tell any difference!!!)...

Don't follow Yellow as always considered it a GM product, but see in Mroz's truck book GM didn't buy from Hertz until 1925...Mroz saz; 1924/25 built 1Ton in two versions---T1 130WB, T15 150 WB, identical otherwise except T1 has pneumatics and T15 had solids, both with Cont'l V4...Can't find my Cont'l folder, but a 1930 McCord lists it as a 4cyl Solid Head (no b/s listed)...(4cyl inline, not a V-type engine)... Unfortunately, he doesn't specifically mention 1926 trucks... He does say by 1928 Yellow Knight was building 3/4 to 4ton units, the lighter ones with unidentified Cont'ls, the heavier with Buick or Knight engines... For Cont'l info/parts/sympathy the place to start is Garrad (Gerry/Jerry) Moon at Monte's in Chicago, obsolete Cont'l parts dealers (garradmoon@montes@flash.net or montesequipment.com... For anything else I'd try some of the GM/GMC sites; some are bound to include Yellow trucks because of the GM connection...or thete may be a Yelloow Coach (Bus 1923-87) site or even a general Bus site that includes the trucks...Good luck!!

Don't know how may built, but do know not nearly enough survive to satisfy collector demand... a couple other sires for info/parts/envy are ATHS (Amercn Trk Hist Soc??) and diamondtclassics.com.

Mroz's truck book isn't much more help on the 26s, pretty much following ROs findings above, only adding that in 1926 "some" trucks used Herc's... If there are any cast/stamped/whatever numbers/letters on what's left of the engine send that, the Stoughton model number (if available) and some pix to: (1) Garrad (Gerry/Jerry) Moon at Monte's in Chicago (obsolete Cont'l parts dealers)---garradmoon@montes@flash.net or montesequipment.com---for possible Cont'l ID... (2) wehs.net (Wauk Eng Hist Soc) for possible Wauk ID... (3) try Jerry Biro---herculesparts.com---obsolete Herc dealer---for possible Herc ID... Assuming RO has Googled the available info, and nothing else's worked, you might try the Stoughton pub lib/local Hist Soc for any company literature (built in Stoughton, WI per Mroz)... You're probably safe that it isn't a Midwest, reportedly out of production 1924...incidentally, the moving force behind Midwest through it's various convolutions (convulsions?) was a man named as A Fletcher Stoughton and as Fletcher A Stoughton in different pieces... It's doubtful Stoughton would've actually had it's own engine plant (old newspaper clippings/trade journal articles should mention if it did); I'd GUESS their "own" engines were a tweak of a Midwest or their own design but built by Midwest or someone else, quite possibly being a tweak of someone else's production engine (and, if so, possibly sharing some parts?)...

KK: Moving down to the Graham & Paige forum here will get you in touch with other owners as well as Graham-Paige.com, the Graham and Paige club, who should be able to get you a definite ID on your engine as well as suggestions/parts info... Generally, on obsolete Cont'ls, the place to start is Garrad Moon at Monte's in Chicago (a dealer in obsolete Cont'l parts) ---garradmoon@montes@flash.net or montesequipment.com...(don't know how Garrad is pronounced but he's often referred to a Gerry/Jerry Moon)... DD: Std cat says Paige had two engines in 1922, both 6s: a 45HP and a 70HP...but the same confusion reigns in my old catalogs as above. If the club can't ID it, and it has a part number shown, email Gerry/Jerry as it's almost certainly some kind of Cont'l...

Well, Std Cat sez Paige built own engines thru WWI "...the higher powered Paiges of the Twenties carried Cont'ls...the straight eight,,,for 1927 was a Lycooming...". HOWEVER, it may not be that simple... A 38 Victor gasket catalog lists, under Paige: Models 6-66-70-21-24...1920-25...6cyl...Cont 8AA/10A... no 8AA in the Cont section, but 8A, 9A and 10A are listed as 33/4x5) Model 45......................1927.......6cyl...Cont 18L (18L lumped in with several other "L"s in Cont. section, two b/s listed for the batch: 23/4x43/4 and 27/8x43/4; no info on which "L" was which bore) Models 65-72................1926-27..a Paige engine 31/4x5, HG #654 Model 75......................1927 6cyl...a Paige engine 33/8x5, HG #654, same as above ( no engine using HG #654 appears in the Cont section therein) A 1930 McCord gasket catalog lists the first line above models 1920-25 with Cont 8AA, 9AA and 10A On a second entry it shows "Paige Motor, 6cyl, passenger 1926-27 (and Jewett 6cyl 1925-26) a Paige 31/4 x 5 engine... On a third entry it shows "Paige 6cyl passenger model 6-45 1927 (and New Day Jewett 1925-26) Cont'l Motor... 23/4x43/4, listing gaskets a couple of which are shared with 9L and 18L Cont'ls... A `1933 Perfect Circle catalog lists several 26-27 models, all with "own" engine... Sounds like Cont'l may've been tweaking some off the shelf models for Paige???

Apparently Enger's 6 was a temporary bridge into the V12, as it's listed in one of my old parts catalogs as coming with a Cont 7N, not one of Enger's own engines... A 1917 ring catalog lists the 1915 V12 as 2 5/8 bore, while the 1916/17 were 2 11/16 bores, a pretty small difference...bored out to correct casting irregularities??? That catalog indexes ring sizes from 1 3/8 to 12 1/2 bores, and the only other 2 11/16 bore was the Militaire "S" for 1917, listed as a 4 cyl...(Std Cat lists a Militaire 2 wheel, advertised as a car but described as a a motorcycle by Std Cat, built 1916, but doesn't mention the engine used)...

Found some more notes on the Veerac--apparently Mitchell paid the bills after (during?) the truck and Andrews tractor production by building Railcar engines...post on sites like NARCOA (Nth Am'cn Railcar Owners Assn??) and/or other RR sites, and something might turn up. Good luck.

WIEKING: That was my post in smokstak on the Verac/Veerac engine; I can't recall getting any replies or comments, and don't recall now why I was looking---possibly just idle curiosity... I should've been clearer on dates for the Andrews tractor: one reference, Wendels Std Cat Farm tractors, apparently gave dates for the Verac/Veerac engined model, a 12-25, as an indefinite 1918-19, while his later Ency of Am'cn farm Tractors referred to it as a 10-20 and was indefinite as to starting date and listed as late as an indefinite 1924... It's possible the 10-20 and the 12-25 were different machines, but just as possible the 10-20 was "uprated" to 12-25, or, vice-versa, "downrated"...it's also possible a few laid around on dealers lots, unsold, for a year or two after actual production of the engines stopped. The Veerac car never got off the ground, and Std Cat says, re' the Veerac truck, "...better than a hundred of then being built between 1910 and 1914..." in Anoka, Minn... Merrill, the designer, must've been producing engines between the end of truck production and the late 19-teens introduction of the Andrews tractor (Andrews Tractor Co, Minn, Minn)... The local Historical Societies might have information, as may the local Public Libraries, in their historical documents archives and/or in microfilm copies of the local newspapers of the period...