60FlatTop Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 (edited) On 3/3/2017 at 6:59 AM, First Born said: Dang, Bob, you trying to out do Bernie?? Ben Hey! I overhauled my radio to do AM/FM/CD/MP3/Bluetooth/and open the garage door, all with voice recognition, no knobs at all. I got all ready to test it on the road and commanded "Open the garage door!" On the third request the speaker calmly replied "I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that." The Sonomatic AM works just fine now. Bernie Edited March 4, 2017 by 60FlatTop (see edit history) 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted March 4, 2017 Share Posted March 4, 2017 2 hours ago, 60FlatTop said: Hey! I overhauled my radio to do AM/FM/CD/MP3/Bluetooth/and open the garage door, all with voice recognition, no knobs at all. I got all ready to test it on the road and commanded "Open the garage door!" On the third request the speaker calmly replied "I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that." The Sonomatic AM works just fine now. Bernie That's because you tried to make her into something she wasn't. They're sensitive like that. I, on the other hand, had a satisfying evening with my Sonomatic because she knows I love her for what she is................Bob 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted March 4, 2017 Author Share Posted March 4, 2017 Even if she has leaky wax capacitors? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 56 minutes ago, Beemon said: Even if she has leaky wax capacitors? Me too but we both still function, after a fashion..............Bob 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 16 hours ago, Bhigdog said: "Open the garage door!" That's the problem -- you needed to program the command such that 'pod bay door' = 'garage door'. As is always the case with computers, GIGO... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted March 5, 2017 Share Posted March 5, 2017 It's worse than you could imagine. Here is the first day of the garage computer panel. The web-based thermostat was originally tied to that blue CAT5 cable. It is finished off now and runs through a a buried 1" poly pipe for the 130' to the house to my firewall switch. (I'm not much for wireless). Today the RJ45 is plugged into a CISCO 20 port switch mounted on the white board. Never know what I will tie in. And there is 8 terabytes of storage on the network for car picture storage and stuff. So voice command for a garage door? Why not. It's just so frustrating to think "Bernie" is interpreted as "David". When we deleted Mike the compare stack shifted. We should have made Mike=null. It is not right for a guy my age to know the octet for my garage web thermostat. Bernie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted March 8, 2017 Author Share Posted March 8, 2017 (edited) Back with some news! The place I bought the vibrator from (the one Matt linked to) said delivery in 2-3 weeks, well it showed up today and I got the chance to place with it. Original vibrator is obviously dead, so time to gut it out. At this point, I have to say I felt like I had the onset of Parkinson's trying to solder that micro chip to the original wires. They say the unit never needs to be serviced, that it's the be all end all... I've heard that one before, so I made sure I had an easy way to pull it back out. Just double looped a piece of string and inserted the chip with it on the bottom. If I ever need to get it out, just need to give a light yank. I then filed the burs off the can from opening the sides up so it wouldn't cut the string, and pushed it down into place over the string and everything, for a clean original install. The manufacturer said that the chip doesn't generate any heat, so I'm not worried about it. After all was said and done, I was a bit hesitant to turn the radio on. Did a final check to make sure there weren't any shorts in the B+ side of the radio. Everything checked out fine. Turned the radio on, warmed up and - very faint static. I could tune into a radio station, but I could barely hear it on full volume. There was also a slight buzz noise. Not a vibrator buzz, but probably a transformer buzz. AC voltage was in the ballpark. Turns out, the 12V6GT lit up in a blue flame on the inside, so I shut down the radio immediately. My grandfather swears he's never been in the radio before, but there was a spare 12V6GT tube in the glove box (it was missing a pin, didn't seem to matter). Turned the radio back on, nothing had changed. Then I noticed that the smaller tube shown (12BE6) was burned on the top where the heater is located. A quick search shows that these two individual symptoms are tell tale signs of bad tubes (obviously lol). So now I'm at the point where the radio functions, but the signal is not being amplified. I guess it's all tube work now, and without a tube tester, I'm now at the mercy of replacing every individual tube. On the bright side, I might get some spares. One step at a time. I'm really glad at least the 0Z4 tube is functioning. I think playing it safe while I wait for the radio swap meet this weekend, I'll make a solid state 0Z4. Interestingly in the documentation that came with the VBN-1 chip, it said to use one 470 ohm resistors with 1N4007 diodes vs two 220 ohm resistors in series. Both will work as resistance is additive in series (440 ohms total with two 220 ohm resistors). The 470 ohm resistor sounds more clean, but I also like having two resistors in each leg. Either way, it's to reduce the B+ voltage just like the 0Z4 rectifier tube. Attached is a diagram I made. Edited March 8, 2017 by Beemon (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEarl Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 I've said it before, this kid never ceases to amaze ? Ben, any chance you could land a tube tester at the radio swap meet or are they to expensive to consider. What a thread! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpecialEducation Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 I'm having trouble keeping up with this thread because of CSS issues, but I'm glad you are getting sound. I have a tube tester, but as I recall, not all of the tubes in this radio are on my test chart. Of course, last time I did this we didn't have the internet; but I think I have all of the specs now so I can run the tubes. I think last time I replaced the vibrator, 12V6GT, and some caps. I don't think I could test the pre-amp tubes because I didn't have the data. Last time I bought a NEW tube, Radio Shack sold them with lifetime guarantees. Do some Google searching and you may find some equivalent tubes. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 What is the B+ voltage at each of the 12V6 tubes? I can't see yours, but it is normal to have some light display...they also generate a small amount of x-rays. To see if the basic amplifier circuit is working feed an audio source to the outer of the 3 pins on the volume control. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosage Chavis Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 ?? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted March 8, 2017 Author Share Posted March 8, 2017 5 hours ago, MrEarl said: I've said it before, this kid never ceases to amaze ? Ben, any chance you could land a tube tester at the radio swap meet or are they to expensive to consider. What a thread! School at the community college for me ends on the 22 (getting done a quarter early), but I have to drive 5 hours over the pass and into the east on the 25 so it can't be more than a hundred bucks. Which is a shame, because I think radio work is fun and would like to do more for hobby work. I'm hoping there will be a booth there that will have a tube testing station so I can bring all my tubes and see which ones are really bad, and hopefully find replacements. Also thank you for the kind words! Maybe after this, I'll tackle a steering box... lol 4 hours ago, SpecialEducation said: I'm having trouble keeping up with this thread because of CSS issues, but I'm glad you are getting sound. I have a tube tester, but as I recall, not all of the tubes in this radio are on my test chart. Of course, last time I did this we didn't have the internet; but I think I have all of the specs now so I can run the tubes. I think last time I replaced the vibrator, 12V6GT, and some caps. I don't think I could test the pre-amp tubes because I didn't have the data. Last time I bought a NEW tube, Radio Shack sold them with lifetime guarantees. Do some Google searching and you may find some equivalent tubes. You bought tubes from RadioShack? When was this? All the RadioShacks around here are all liquidized - not enough of a hobby in my area to keep them I guess. 2 hours ago, old-tank said: What is the B+ voltage at each of the 12V6 tubes? I can't see yours, but it is normal to have some light display...they also generate a small amount of x-rays. To see if the basic amplifier circuit is working feed an audio source to the outer of the 3 pins on the volume control. I'll have to pull a reading again, but I did my research and apparently the "blue flame" is the electrons hitting the side of the glass, indicating the heater is working. The tube may not be bad after all. I'm almost thinking the 0Z4 is only rectifying half of the transformer since there is a buzzing noise. Also looks like I need to pick up a set of hobby alligator clips. 40 minutes ago, Kosage Chavis said: ?? Don't worry man, when you get to this part of the restoration, just know that others have blazed the trail for you and we're here to help! Radios are simple, just need to trace the wiring diagram and figure out where everything goes before tearing into one. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrEarl Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 I'm with ya Kosage, I feel so, so....inadequate?? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpecialEducation Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 6 minutes ago, Beemon said: You bought tubes from RadioShack? When was this? All the RadioShacks around here are all liquidized - not enough of a hobby in my area to keep them I guess. Believe me, i've been training Radio Shack employees since i was in Jr. High. Last time I bought tubes was '95 or '96. The guy at the store didnt even know what a vacuum tube was. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted March 8, 2017 Author Share Posted March 8, 2017 1 minute ago, SpecialEducation said: Believe me, i've been training Radio Shack employees since i was in Jr. High. Last time I bought tubes was '95 or '96. The guy at the store didnt even know what a vacuum tube was. That must have been something to see. Usually its me every time I walk in to AutoZone and have them look up the part so I can go to NAPA... lol. Unfortunately, the do not sell vacuum tubes. The only local place near me is at the Canadian border, 2 hours away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 Sadly, I can remember as a kid (or maybe it's good that I can actually remember) more often than not there was a tube tester at the front of the drug store with a selection of common tubes for sale... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpecialEducation Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 42 minutes ago, EmTee said: Sadly, I can remember as a kid (or maybe it's good that I can actually remember) more often than not there was a tube tester at the front of the drug store with a selection of common tubes for sale... Yup, me too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted March 10, 2017 Author Share Posted March 10, 2017 (edited) Okay, so on a whim to see if the 0Z4 was the culprit or not, I opened it up today and replaced the guts. I carefully pried apart the pushed in tabs with a 90 degree pick to expose the vacuum tube. As you can see, it's gotten quite a bit of life out of it. In the 4th picture, there is some oxidation buildup on the contact leads. The fifth picture, by deduction, indicated the correct pins for the two input and one output leads. I labeled them based on the tube terminals that came out of each leg. I then twisted the two diodes together and hooked the resistor in place using method 1 above. The 0Z4 can had a cardboard sleeve in there (my girlfriend decided to label the electronic condom), so grounding to the case is not an issue. After that, it was just a matter of pressing the tabs back in place. Fired up the radio and... no change. All tubes are getting the correct B+ voltage, so now I've got to wait for the tube testing/replacing this weekend. I'm also going to need to replace both speakers. As it stands, the rear speaker does not work and I can't just replace one speaker... Luckily, there was a thread not too long ago where Matt contributed a Best-Buy Kennwood speaker, so this will be my next task after the radio is up and running. My only regret so far has been ripping out the electrolytic capacitor. Everything else looks stock from the back, and I suppose you can't look up to see it in there, but the replacements are quite ugly as it stands. Edited March 10, 2017 by Beemon (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 Are you sure it's not just the speaker? Why can't you replace just one? That's how they came to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted March 10, 2017 Author Share Posted March 10, 2017 12 minutes ago, JohnD1956 said: Are you sure it's not just the speaker? Why can't you replace just one? That's how they came to begin with. My car has two speakers with a Front/Rear switch. I can't just leave one stock, it wouldn't sound or feel right. The meet is this weekend, so buying a new speaker to test doesn't sound too bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 But you could hook up one speaker temporarily to see if the radio is working, couldn't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpecialEducation Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 (edited) for the record, the oz4 rectifier is a gas filled tube, not a vacuum tube. :oP i should also note that the Kenwoods i used were 3 way speekers. I bought them on sale at best buy. the problem with them is that the center speakers stand proud of the flange. this means i had to make a spacer to keep the tweeters off the metal grille in the cab and the center divider in the package shelf. thats why the plywood ring. i did have to leave one screw out of the bottom of the cab, though. other than that, standard 8 ohm 6x9s work great. same bolt pattern today as in 56. i got away with 4 ohm because my solid state amp is good down to 2, the schematic doesnt specify, but i think the original speaker is 8. I could be wrong, but better high than low (or bypass the switch and run 4s in series). Edited March 10, 2017 by SpecialEducation (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted March 10, 2017 Author Share Posted March 10, 2017 (edited) Matt, the original speaker is 4 ohm, I measured it today. Don't be upset, but I purchased new Kenwood speakers just now from best buy for $41 out the door and the tweeter is now flush or about a 1/16" behind the mounting flange. Same part number, KFC-6965R. Edited March 10, 2017 by Beemon (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted March 10, 2017 Author Share Posted March 10, 2017 1 hour ago, JohnD1956 said: But you could hook up one speaker temporarily to see if the radio is working, couldn't you? John, sorry I missed this. The speaker at the rear doesn't even make a buzz. The speaker in the case makes noise but it's very muted and distorted. So I got the new speakers to test. If it's the speaker, great! If not, well at least I have better speakers now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpecialEducation Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Beemon said: Matt, the original speaker is 4 ohm, I measured it today. Don't be upset, but I purchased new Kenwood speakers just now from best buy for $41 out the door and the tweeter is now flush or about a 1/16" behind the mounting flange. Same part number, KFC-6965R. Jerks. As I was typing 8, I was thinking I had worked on an old radio and was surprised that it was 4, but I didn't remember for sure if it was a Sonomatic I was working on or something else. Not surprised. Would have been nice if they had documented that somewhere. I did run my solid state through the original speaker and it sounded really good. The crisper highs from the 3-way probably won't matter much with AM, but they can't hurt. I worked on an old Zenith once that was 22. What a pain that was. Edited March 10, 2017 by SpecialEducation (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted March 10, 2017 Author Share Posted March 10, 2017 So some good news, some bad news. Bad news is, I wasted $40 because the Kenwood speakers are too big to fit the stock chassis. It needs to be at least a half inch smaller, preferably an inch. The good news is, my speaker was the culprit all along and it just need a new lead wire! Here's a video for all those who care. Some more bad news... my rear speaker is disintegrated, so even though the front is plenty loud, I won't have both sides of the switch working. Now that I don't have to go to the radio show on Saturday, maybe I'll be able to pull one from one of the junkyard cars. While I'm in there, might be good to pull some spare tubes, too. Though I imagine anything I pull out of there will be worse for wear, but I'm pretty limited on speaker options. I thought about putting one of the two Kenwood speakers in the back, but then it wouldn't sound right to have one original and one new... I can't get a refund either, because I cut the wires that came with it. In my excitement, I had just used a jumper wire to test the speaker and it came alive, so I jumped the gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 @Matt: can you notice any increase in the bass reproduction with those speakers? @Ben: the speakers you bought, do they have the same mounting bolt pattern? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted March 10, 2017 Author Share Posted March 10, 2017 John, the speakers have the same mounting pattern as originals. They are just too big as in there isn't enough room inside the radio for it. It worked for Matt because he gutted his chassis and added a Bluetooth amp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpecialEducation Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 57 minutes ago, JohnD1956 said: @Matt: can you notice any increase in the bass reproduction with those speakers? @Ben: the speakers you bought, do they have the same mounting bolt pattern? bass is about the same. the real difference i noticed was crisper highs. the only problem with these speakers for am radio is that they are 61 year old paper. thats a shame it doent fit. id look for a generic "replacement parts" 6x9. ive got a catalog somewhere, ill see what i can dig up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 Ben, if the voice coils on the original speakers are OK maybe a speaker 'rebuild' kit would work for you. There are companies on the internet who will provide the cone paper and suspension materials to allow you to rebuild your speaker. I know there's also at least one place near me that will do the work for those who aren't DIYers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 Speaking of speakers, and probably not relevant here but I'll put it out as general info anyway. I needed to replace the speaker in my 55. The one speaker I found would fit inside the case except the ring magnet interfered with other parts. I chopped a fair sized section of magnet away to make it fit. Works and sounds fine to me..........Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpecialEducation Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 Ive bought from Parts Express before: http://www.parts-express.com/cat/dash-door-deck-car-speakers/390?N=20456+4294967118+4294965865&Ne=10166&Nrs=collection()%2Frecord[endeca%3Amatches(.%2C"P_PortalID"%2C"1")+and+endeca%3Amatches(.%2C"P_Searchable"%2C"1")]&PortalID=1 if you cant find a modern 6x9 that fits, you could adapt to something like a 5.25". if you go that route, id keep the kenwood in the trunk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 Thanks for the response Matt and Ben. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted March 11, 2017 Author Share Posted March 11, 2017 11 hours ago, SpecialEducation said: the only problem with these speakers for am radio is that they are 61 year old paper. thats a shame it doent fit. id look for a generic "replacement parts" 6x9. ive got a catalog somewhere, ill see what i can dig up. I poked and prodded the original one, there was nothing wrong with it. The rear speaker for the last 30 years was exposed to the sun, so I'm guessing that's why it disintegrated. 15 hours ago, EmTee said: Ben, if the voice coils on the original speakers are OK maybe a speaker 'rebuild' kit would work for you. There are companies on the internet who will provide the cone paper and suspension materials to allow you to rebuild your speaker. I know there's also at least one place near me that will do the work for those who aren't DIYers. Funny you should mention a recone, I was looking into a few kits. 6x9 is unfortunately not a common size, so trying to locate a kit that fits has been difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 8 hours ago, Beemon said: Funny you should mention a recone, I was looking into a few kits. 6x9 is unfortunately not a common size, so trying to locate a kit that fits has been difficult. Ben, did you see this 6 x 9 repair kit? http://reconingspeakers.com/product/6x9-diy-aftermarket-recone-kit/ 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD1956 Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 What can cause a speaker to fail? I know little about the wizzardy electronics that make a radio work and a speaker looks so simple I cannot imagine what causes failure. But when I got the electra the rear speaker did not work and replacement resolved the issue, so it appeared to me that the speaker failed. To look at it shows no obvious imperfection, and it is not water damaged as the rear window does not leak (yet). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old-tank Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 1 hour ago, EmTee said: Ben, did you see this 6 x 9 repair kit? http://reconingspeakers.com/product/6x9-diy-aftermarket-recone-kit/ Good to know...probably easier than patching with Elmer's Glue and tissue paper. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NC-car-guy Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 I have a 56 sonomatic here at the house that doesn't make any noise but lights up you are welcome to it for parts if needed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpecialEducation Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 1 hour ago, JohnD1956 said: What can cause a speaker to fail? I know little about the wizzardy electronics that make a radio work and a speaker looks so simple I cannot imagine what causes failure. But when I got the electra the rear speaker did not work and replacement resolved the issue, so it appeared to me that the speaker failed. To look at it shows no obvious imperfection, and it is not water damaged as the rear window does not leak (yet). primarily its 2 things: over time, the cone suspension materials (or the cone itself) degrades. the speed of degradation will be dependant on environment (UV, humidity, etc...). voice coil failures usually result from overpowering the speaker. bass frequencies tend to put more heat into the coil than mids & treble. I had an '82 Buick in high school that had an AWESOME sounding stock stereo. unfortunately, the voice coils couldnt handle the Roland 808 that was popular in the late '80s/early '90s music that I listened to. i would overheat the coils, but instead of burning them out, they would distort and start rubbing on the magnet, makkng an annoying cherping sound. i replaced them once or twice with salvage soeakers, but they all met the same demise. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beemon Posted March 11, 2017 Author Share Posted March 11, 2017 (edited) Yes I did, that's the only one I could find lol. I didn't measure the size of the cone on the original speaker. I need to pull the rear speaker anyways, but I'm going to buy two kits and do both speakers. The site has a tutorial page, too, and it doesn't seem too hard. Definitely easier than rebuilding a radio... lol John, the speaker is basically a copper wound magnet. We made them in highschool physics with copper wire and white 8x11" printing paper. Along with what Matt about environment and overpowering, the windings in the magnet can also become corroded and loose its conductivity, along with the lead wire, which can create a ground. In the case of my dash speaker, the paper was perfect but it didn't work until I replaced the lead wire. The rear speaker by observation became very brittle and just fell apart in big chunks. The foil that shields the windings has also come unglued, so this speaker may need more than just a recone. It's not impossible to rewind the magnet, but without knowing how many times it was wound, it's a bit difficult... other than unwinding 10,000 wires and counting yourself lol Edited March 11, 2017 by Beemon (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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