I Must be doing something wrong

It has crossed my mind I might be getting too much fuel pressure and was thinking about putting a pressure gauge in line to check. Thanks for the ideas keep them coming.

I have had that fuel pump spring issue in the past on different applications. Not common, but a real problem when it is there. Easy enough to check the plug wires, pull one off and look at the end. If it is solid wire core, your good to go. If it is black string and carbon core you are not. Dandy Dave!

I have solid wires cores.

I THINK I made progress today.

I put the original carb and choke back on mainly cause Spring is springing and dad needs his carb back. Before I did that however I did some reading through tech articles in the 37-38 magazines The Torque Tube. I was reading on the causes of flooding and if I was getting too much fuel pressure I'd have gas coming out the inspection hole. I don't even under throttle, so I wrote that off as a problem.

Also before I put my carb and choke back on I adjusted the choke a little.

Under idle it started to run roughly as it got warmed up and since I do not have the air cleaner on used a screw driver to open the choke butterfly some and immediately it started running better. I jammed the screwdriver in and revved the engine where I was getting a hiccup and the engine dying, with the butterfly jammed open, no hiccup, no dying engine. This is all just in the garage no driving.

So I am going to let everything cool, adjust the choke again and see if we can get it tuned in a bit more.

Oh one other note for what it's worth. I noticed the heat riser was about a 1/4" off the manifold. this was due to the things under the carb sorry can't thing of the name but they are like asbestos insulator things. The ones (I had) from the repro guys are either too thin or too thick (if you use two) so I ended up going back to one that was on the car when I started the resto and now the heat riser tube is maybe 1/16" off the manifold.

Brian, by heat riser tube, are you talking about the 1/4in or 3/8in tube that runs from the exhaust manifold up to the choke housing on the carb? If so , that needs to be run inside the manifold. The heat that it picks up from the manifold is drawn by vacuum through the choke housing, thereby heating the spring, allowing the choke plate to open. If it is even 1/16th away from the manifold, probably sucking ambient air, and choke will not open properly.

Ben

Ben, this is about an 1"+ diameter tube.

The '38 Choke mechanism is very different than anything later. There is no 5/16" tube to suck hot air from the exhaust manifold. The "38 does all this by magic and usually very poorly.

Glad you seem to be making progress Brian

Brian and anyone who uses these: Throw it in the garbage. Marty Roth and Don Micheletti made the best arguments: If there is a problem with the distributor points, you can almost always fix it on the side of the road. If there is a problem with the Pertronix, you can't fix it on the side of the road--call the tow truck and hire a modern mechanic. You can't even diagnose it--look at all of the suggestions and guesses on this thread.

Not a Buick, but I have a 1963 Chrysler New Yorker that I have owned for 21 years. I put new points, condensor, & rotor in it in 1993--20 years ago, and its 413 is still running perfectly--I took it out yesterday and put 80 miles on it. 20 years beats 15 years mentioned above!

I rest my case. Next case....

Pete Phillips

Sorry, i am a fan of Pertronix. no problems and not hard to fix if required. no dwell meter of feeler gauges required.

If points were so good, they would still be using them.

Ben, this is about an 1"+ diameter tube.

Right on, Brian. I just saw a manifold with that tube at Chickasha. Was told it is a '38 only! So I guess my comments show I am out of my depth here. Keep digging.

Ben

Also, the car has an oil bath air cleaner. If you put it on and it runs rich, then and you take it off, and it runs good, the mesh inside may be plugged. The best way to clean them is to soak it in a Mineral Sprits, or Laquer thinner bath. Repeat washings and blowing it out with compressed air. You will be shocked at how much trash comes out. I've had this problem in the past. Especially on tractors that have worked in a very dusty enviorment. When all else fails, look for somthing simple, obvious, and totally stupid. Dandy Dave!

When all else fails, look for somthing simple, obvious, and totally stupid. Dandy Dave!

My wife tells me to look in the mirror......................

When all else fails, look for somthing simple, obvious, and totally stupid. Dandy Dave!

My wife tells me to look in the mirror......................

LOL... I take my cuzin to one of them pole dancing bars for his Birthday. He's cleans me out of dollars and finally comes to the bar for a drink. Cute bar tender sets him up and I tell her to put it on the bill. He looks at her and says, "Dudes are stupid man." Everyone within ear shot cracks up.... and of course the bar tender agrees. Dandy Dave!

Alright well it took a bit to get started today but it's been sitting, but choke was not completely closed. had to use a bit of ether to get it going without wearing down the battery. Once hot the choke opened all the way up, so that is good. a bit more adjustment and hopefully I'll be in good shape.

Took it for a spin in the neighborhood, sputtered and died under load... usual stuff.

Had enough momentum and was at the right spot to roll back to the driveway. Got it to refire and goofed around a bit. Ran it at WOT and it would run and run and run at WOT for 30-45 seconds and then it would cough and die. tried to start it back up and it backfired up through the carb, but then started right up as soon as it did. So I am thinking I have a little timing issue combined with still flooding, cause the backfire clears the flooding and then it runs fine for a bit until it floods again.

I took a video after I got it refired and just ran it at WOT. hopefully I can attach the video I uploaded to You Tube.

I pulled the number 1 plug after this video and here is that photo.

Adjusted the valve lash most were a bit loose, but still no luck... stalled out on the neighborhood test ride. had to wait a few minutes and then got it started and drove home.

Brian.

In your video, it looks like the choke butterfly isn't fully open when the engine is running, Is that so? You do say it is in your text though.

Ive seen plugs a whole lot sootier than that that worked OK. Is it wet with gas?

Don

Brian

I don't know what the sometimes flooding is all about, but it seems to be starving for fuel in the video...or the exhaust is plugged.

Repeat what you did in the video, using a small remote tank (disconnect the fuel line at the pump) above the carb (which probably not the problems since 2 performed the same). Then if still starving, disconnect the muffler at the exhaust pipe or take it to a muffler shop to test back pressure.

Willie

Brian, I sure HOPE I get to meet you someday, you have really worked your tail off on this issue.

I have had my share of BURNT BISCUITS in the past, and sure more are to come.

Keep faith, you will win, OH, I too am a believer in a Pertronix kit.

Dale in Indy

Brian.

In your video, it looks like the choke butterfly isn't fully open when the engine is running, Is that so? You do say it is in your text though.

Ive seen plugs a whole lot sootier than that that worked OK. Is it wet with gas?

Don

Don, I think the angle of the video doesn't really show it well but it is wide open when hot. B

Brian

I don't know what the sometimes flooding is all about, but it seems to be starving for fuel in the video...or the exhaust is plugged.

Repeat what you did in the video, using a small remote tank (disconnect the fuel line at the pump) above the carb (which probably not the problems since 2 performed the same). Then if still starving, disconnect the muffler at the exhaust pipe or take it to a muffler shop to test back pressure.

Willie

Thanks Willie another friend not on the forum watched the video and also said starved. I was going to go get a pressure gauge actually and install it between the end of the fuel line and the carb and see what I got going on.

I think we have a winner. Fuel starvation. I got a pressure gauge installed just in front of the carb. Run up the engine and watched the pressure fall from 5 psi to 0 and then the engine dies. Run the electric fuel pump no help. Run the electric pump to reprise the carb and vwalla starts. So I went back to the clear fuel filter and as the engine runs at higher revs it goes from full of fuel to empty. Therefore i am thinking my issue is tank/ pick up related. I did try and run it with no gas cap but that does not solve the issue so I think the cap is venting properly.

Suggestions on what to look for as I drop the tank? Or am I correct in thinking tank/pick up is the source?

Brian, this won't help you, but in the 50's we ran a lot of top end racing on ROUTE 66 from Bloomington, IL, to Shirley, Il. Straight shot about 6-8 miles. Speed limit signs read, "REASONABLE and PROPER". Yep, that's what they said, sure wish I had stolen one of dim dare signs, hehehe.

At top end we would run out of fuel pump volume, so we installed a couple glass bowl filters, UPSIDE DOWN, so gravity would dump some fuel in when pump didn't keep up.

Can't wait to hear WHAT you find as the BURNT BISCUIT......

Dale in Indy

P.S. Yes, when dropping the tank, be very CAREFUL, IF MUCH GAS IS IN IT....... I'm sure you know this, but.........

Good news, sounds like you are on the right track. Before you drop the tank put a separate source of fuel back by the tank (after the tank)...just in case there is an obstruction in the line.

Brian,

Terrific to hear that you have had success.

I think I'd use the electric pump to empty the tank first - if the obstruction will let it. Since you have to jiggle the tank around some to get the filler neck out, having an empty tank makes it a whole lot easier and safer.

Retrospectively, your symptoms suggest starvation. Sooty plugs were a red herring.

Ok well I have some more success to report.

So I checked that removing the fuel filter on the suction side of both pumps did not fix the issue nor did removing the check valve at the electric fuel pump bypass. Both are back installed at this point.

For giggles, in lieu of dropping the tank I attached a compressed air nozzle gun to the outlet line of the gas tank pick up tube. I secured it to a rubber hose with a hose clamp to ensure good pressure and gave a few squirts of compressed air into the tank (note I removed the gas cap to ensure good ventilation) I hooked everything back up and sure enough problem fixed...for the moment. Obviously whatever was clogging the pick up tube is floating around in the gas still in the tank. Next I have to drain the tank. I know the drain plug is sealed up tight so no sense in taking that out. and obviously I cannot use the electric pump to drain the tank as that will simply cause the clog again SO. I am going to have to drain via a pump with a line down the filler tube. When I was with the NASCAR teams we had a big industrial pump with like 1" lines that would be ideal. I'll have to find one to borrow. Unless any one else has ideas.

I came across this thread the other day. I do love a mystery and read it all in one sitting. It was a great ride with what looks like a happy ending. These kind of problems are so frustrating, but so satisfying when solved. Good on you Brian!!

BTW I can't tell you the number of times over the years I have used a siphon hose to empty a tank. I once emptied a 5,000 gal oil tank that was half full of water with a siphon hose. Used a garden hose and it took all day but I got 'er done

Dave

Brian,

I think your last post says it all.......

When you drop the tank you are obviously going to look for sediment and "floaties", but consider checking the distance of the pick up tube to the floor of the tank, and the angle that the tube sits at.

A friend of mine, with a '48 chevy, found his tube hit the bottom of the tank at 90 degrees, and caused fuel starvation an highway speeds, but would sit there and idle fine. Literally drove him nuts (and broke) trying to solve the problem.

Mike in Colorado

Been away for a few days over the Easter Holiday and am just catching up. I do agree from the vidio that the engine is starving. I agree, Drop the tank. Be sure it is 100 percent clean inside. Be sure that the fuel lines do not have any obstructions, or vacumm leaks before the fuel pump as the pump will move Air before Fuel. Inspect any rubber lines for cracks and deterioration. Also check any steel lines for rust or pin holes and any copper lines for cracks or thin spots. Also any soldered spots that have cracked and givin up. If I was only your neighbor and could see it first hand, these problems would have been solved long ago. I have seen 30 ton Cat Excavators not run because of a piece of rubber fuel line was caught in a fuel hose. Start from one end and work you way back to the problem. You have to attack these problems methotically, and with patients. Dandy Dave!

I had sediment clogging the fuel line in my 62 Cadillac. After rinsing out the gas tank thoroughly, there were a few particles left. I could not get everything out. No problem - used sloshing sealer to seal the tank. Any bits left were captured by the sealer. Tank was like new (on the inside) - no problems.

When I was restoring my Special, I used a sealer from a well known supplier. I applied it exactly as they said to do it. It peeled off in sheets the first time I filled up. I had to remove the tank and decided to send it to a Renu dealer in Houston.

When you use the sealer, you need to let the tank dry for a much longer period of time than what is on the can. 48 hours is just not enough. Also, it is best to wash out rust with Muriatic Acid, and remove any gum build up with Laquer Thinner. I have done a lot of tanks this way and have never had a problem. I have tanks here that were coated 20 + years ago and are still good. Dandy Dave!

Now we know why you are "DANDY DAVE"

Good info to know, kind of what I call , (TIP OF THE DAY/WEEK/MONTH/YEAR). Not as cool as pic't of DAGMAR'S though.

Thanks,

Dale in Indy

x2 on the muriactic acid (hydrocloric acid) that stuff is great on rust.

x2 as well on the laquer thinner. Nothing cuts through 5 decades of oil, grease, etc. better. I go through half a gallon on every engine I re-do.

Buick Nailhead Engines - Buick Nailhead engines for sale

Thought everyone would like to know the 80C drove excellent today to and from the Speedway for Autofair. 10-15 mile round trip. So we definitely found the problem. the ticking time bomb is still floating around in the tank, but I am pleased we found the issue so i can move on to talking a list of other gremlins that are minor.

Nice. Glad you are finally getting the problems worked out Brian. :cool: Dandy Dave!

Brian,

Great to hear that you have identified your problem. It will be interesting to find out what you fish out of the tank. I hope you'll let us all know.

Don

I know it's been a while since I updated this thread, but I finally had to break down and drop the tank last night... an 1/8" diameter gasket "hole" was blown out of the fuel pick up and she seem to be running great today. So where can I get one of those "socks" to put over the fuel pick up as a future safety precaution?

In a random side note, my glove box clock has randomly begun work and is keeping perfect time. I have no explanation for this one as I haven't touched it since I installed, so let blame that on the clogged fuel line too:)!

Maybe you hit a big chuck hole that jarred it into working, hehe, or if you had the battery disconnected, then maybe when you hooked it back up it woke it up, I HAVE HEARD OF SUCH.

Dale in Indy

Brian and anyone who uses these: Throw it in the garbage. Marty Roth and Don Micheletti made the best arguments: If there is a problem with the distributor points, you can almost always fix it on the side of the road. If there is a problem with the Pertronix, you can't fix it on the side of the road--call the tow truck and hire a modern mechanic. You can't even diagnose it--look at all of the suggestions and guesses on this thread.

I rest my case. Next case....

Pete Phillips

I am in this column also. The more that I know about the basics the car was built with, the more I appreciate the KISS method.

I was having a backfire problem with my truck and it ended up being a cracked insulation where the wire goes from the coil into the distributor. Very simple fix, but difficult to find.

Truck now runs great!!

I know it's been a while since I updated this thread, but I finally had to break down and drop the tank last night... an 1/8" diameter gasket "hole" was blown out of the fuel pick up and she seem to be running great today. So where can I get one of those "socks" to put over the fuel pick up as a future safety precaution?

In a random side note, my glove box clock has randomly begun work and is keeping perfect time. I have no explanation for this one as I haven't touched it since I installed, so let blame that on the clogged fuel line too:)!

If I was to guess on this, I would say bad ground.... Check the system electrical connections. Not the ones at the clock.