Guest 1930 Posted January 21, 2007 Share Posted January 21, 2007 This is a picture of my drag link rubbing the frame, not sure why, 1929/30 DA Dodge. The car was restored (loosely) in the late 70s. They really tore it down to the last nut and bolt but then seemed to rush putting it back together,( I am sure that the money cust. had paid was all of a sudden not enough) Anyway to correct this problem then they heated and bent pitman arm into an S. I dont want to put it back this way, I have two other pitman arms that seem unbent and that does not fix problem, I have tried three different drag links and that does not fix it either. I noticed that not only was the original pitman arm bent the original drag link was also not identical in curvature to the three spares that I have. I also noticed that the splines on the sector shaft coming out of gearbox were twisted just slightly which makes me think that at one point this car may have been in an accident. Anyway rebulit my gearbox and replaced sector shaft with spare, (if anyone out there needs info on their gearbox and how to do a thorough job at making it tight again I can definately help) I know that I can simply move the pitman arm further down on the steering sector shaft so that it the drag link stops just before it even reaches the frame but then I lose quite a bit of turning radius on one side, unless someone tells me that these cars are not supposed to have as much radius on one side compared to other for some reason. I guess I am wondering that though. My next move I guess is to change out the steering knuckle itself, I think I have access to a spare, I am guessing that if the steering knuckle is bent to far back than it might cause the problem I am having, any thoughts would be appreciated, I would really like to hear from someone that has this car that could tell me when there wheel is cranked all the way to the right( I think) how close there drag link is to the frame. Thanks for any help and I have attached a picture of the drag link hitting the frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Scafani Posted January 22, 2007 Share Posted January 22, 2007 the pitman arm is on inside out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gboy Posted January 22, 2007 Share Posted January 22, 2007 It looks like the pitman arm is on backwards, the drag link should be to the out side of the pitman arm not against the frame. Reverse the pitman arm with the drag link to the outside, that should solve your problem.Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1930 Posted January 22, 2007 Share Posted January 22, 2007 Definately not the problem, the pitman arm only goes on one way, thanks anyway though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepstrebeck Posted January 22, 2007 Share Posted January 22, 2007 The front end suspension and steering are a system, and are inter-connected. I would start by looking at the individual pieces/that make up the system.Look for a worn spring or worn out spring shackle or busings. This would cause the car to "sag" or "lean" and in turn make the drag link rub. Next would be to check the bearings and king pins. After jacking up the front end of the car, take the wheel by the top and bottom and push and pull (wiggle) it as though you are trying to take it off. If there is any movement first check to make sure that the castle nut is tight, next if the movement is more up and down check the bearings, and if it is more in and out at the top and bottom the king pins may need to be re-bushed or replaced. Also check the size and condition of the balls for the pitman arm and steering arm and make sure that they are indeed round, and not worn undersize. A little bit of slop and wear at each point will add up.Let us know how it turns out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DodgeKCL Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 Very interesting problem. I looked up the late 20's drag link hookup and sure enough the ball goes in toward the frame. At the start of the 30's the ball goes out away from the frame and in the middle 30's the drag link is inside the frame directly in front of the steering box. Anyways the shaft is tapered and the drag link would only go on one way in any case. The 'accident' scenario is the most likely one. The steering box is held on by 4 bolts? First I would make sure they are all pulled up tight and the box is flush to the inside of the frame? It would seem the box is cocked off to one side and the drag link is not running in a 'flat' semicircle. The arc of the circle in your case is pitched toward the frame. If it's not that easy,take out the steering box mounting bolts and see if the frame holes have been distorted. There might not have been much clearance in the first place and if the box is offset because of frame distortion, it might not take much to make it rub the frame cheek. However if you do find some distortion it might be expediant to place washers under steering box mounting holes to offset the drag link and atleast stop it from rubbing until you find a more permanent solution. If you do put in washers you will have to loosen the collar under the dash panel lip that holds the steering column. After you have got the rubbing stopped you can tighten the steering post clamp. If you don't loosen and then tighten the steering post clamp, the steering will bind and be hard to move.The steering column has to follow the steering box offset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1930 Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 Thanks for the info, Pep I have gone thru all that you have mentioned already, replaced and reconditioned everything I could, KCL you offer advice that I will look into as far as how the box is sitting in there, I have had it out several times and dont think I could have positioned it in there wrong but I will look anyway, I Xed out the frame tonight and checked it for diamond, it is all within reason even by todays close tolerance standards. Any other suggestions would be appreciated, trying to get my hands on a steering arm, dont have a spare but I think I have one maybe coming. All I guess I can do at this point is continue to throw parts at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John1918 Posted January 23, 2007 Share Posted January 23, 2007 I just had a look at my Victory (friend says they're the same as a DA) Given that mine's a right drive and yours is left drive it will be mirror image but still work the same. In mine the drag link doesn't come back far enough to touch the chassis but it certainly would if it were allowed to come back any further. In fact if it came back another half inch it would touch the chassis. That could mean that your drag link is too long or the arm on the stub axle is bent back a little. Also my drag link has a good kink and if it were straightened it could produce the same effect.Cheers, John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1930 Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Yes thanks for all the replys, I do believe it is the steering arm that the drag link connects to, I have to admit I have an entire spare front end but I removed and threw away the steering arm not thinking I would need it so now I am waiting for another one to be mailed to me from people that I know. Just did not feel I would need that part, I also left my axle at work because someone there said they would find use for it and I could not find anyone else that wanted it, I just yesterday brought it home again just in case. I will start a new post on that. Thanks again for all the replys, that just shows everyone what the term Dodge Brothers is supposed to mean to all of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1930 Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 Still fighting this problem, changed everything now except front axle/spindle assy which I do not want to do since I have new king pins installed. Are there any DA owners that can tell me how many turns it taked from center to right stop. Can you tell me if you are actually hitting the stop on the spindle/axle or is it just stopping because the worm gear has run out off worm, also the same for the left turn. Thanks for any responses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nearchoclatetown Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 Are you a DBC member? If so, look in the club registry, there has to be a DA located somewhere close to you. Sure sounds like you need to look at another to get this problem taken care of. Or put your city and state in your profile here, there's a lot of lurkers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nearchoclatetown Posted February 3, 2007 Share Posted February 3, 2007 Not sure if you have a service manual for your car either? Kim has several differant DB manuals for 1930 in the AACA library, if you need a copy. Just go up to the resources bar and click on it and find the library, go through the online search for 1930 Dodge. Email Kim and she can copy and mail you anything you need REAL cheap, no need to go to Hershey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1930 Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 There are two DAs relatively close, or there were, one guy David Main has been very helpfull, he lives in Orlando about two hours away, super helpfull and let me take so many pictures but he just after 30 years sold his car, the other guy lives a half hour away has a four door sedan, Bruce something, lives in Tampa, what a miserable prick, no help what so ever even when I offered to pay him just to let me see his car ( which he did ) for twenty dollars. Noone else within a couple of hundred miles. And thanks for the suggestion of looking in the AACA library, good idea but unfortuantely unless I missed something it seems I have more info than it does on my car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John1918 Posted February 4, 2007 Share Posted February 4, 2007 I think your problem is that the drag link is going too far back so if it's not a bent arm on your spindle assembly, could it be that the front springs are back-to-front. I haven't looked at my Victory 6 yet but I do know that my Dodge 4 springs have a right and wrong way around. The shorter end is to the front so if they were turned 180 degrees about this would push the front axle back a bit and mean the drag link would have to go further back for the same turning radius. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1930 Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 That is good thinking, had not considered that, as soon as I read that I look and the short end is to the front on both sides. Thanks for that idea though. Here is what I have so far if I can rememeber it all that I have checked. Car was completely dismantled and restored ( loosely ) in the late 70s, upon my mechanical restoration of it I found a heated and bent pitman arm, then slightly twisted splines on sector shaft going into gearbox, then a bent drag link, replaced sector shaft, drag link steering arm and pitman arm with known good parts ( known because they matched other spares that I have, there were deep scrapes in frame where the pitman arm was rubbing for a long time even after being heated and bent to clear frame by someone else. I have measured the frame for diamond and sway, I have measure the front axle from the position at the bottom of kingpin on both sides to known identical position on frame rearward and they are same, I have measured axle from where the nut is that hold shockie strap on both sides to known same position on both sides further back on frame and they are the same, I have measured u-bolts that clamp front leaf springs back to known same spot on both sides of frame and they are the same. I removed steering box 9 times just out of not knowing what else to try and switched positions of sector shaft on worm gear and it affects nothing. I have vehicle jacked up with no weight on springs to see if it had anything to do with sagging springs it does not, someone asked me why I just dont move the pitman arm a notch or two down the frame so that it does not come back so far, if I move it only one notch off center than I have 3/4 of a turn on my steering wheel before the sector shaft bottoms out in worm gear and that mean very little turning radius to the right and a full 2 turns of the wheel to the left, it is not that simple. I am honestly starting to think I have a special car that is supposed to have special parts ( not joking ) it is a 2 Dr. Victoria DA, there are only two of them listed in the D.B club and mine being one of them and just found out today the other was recently sold to someone that is unavailable. To be honest, I am an mechanically intelligent man who has tried everything that he can think of and I am maybe just going to have to heat and bend a pitman arm so that it will clear the frame. I am really thinking that maybe that is what is supposed to be done. I have had Harry Redding on the phone for more than an hour on Sat, we measured my drag link and the distance from ball at the front of drag link to ball in pitman arm and compared it with two cars that he had at his house and they are the same, we made many other comparisons mine against his and all seems to be the same. What I dont get is Harry tells me that with his wheels pointed straight forward his pitman arm is approx at the 5:30 position, mine is exactely the same, I know that we have the same gearbox so why is it that he is able to make his right turn and draw that pitman arm/drag link back a close to even amount of times and not hit the frame. We compared part # on pitmnan arm and mine and his are the same. Another member (Pep) has told me that he is able to turn his wheels approx 1 1/2 turns in either direction and not hit his frame. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks for all the info so far, I am no quiter but maybe I am trying to fix something here that is not broken, just a case of a different car with different parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John1918 Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 It's good to know you have the same starting point when pointing straight ahead as Harry so now measure the length of your pitman arm from the centre of the ball to the centre of the shaft coming out of the steering box. Then measure the length of the arm on the spindle/stub axle from the centre of the king pin to the centre of the drag link. Compare these with Harry's car. The ratio of these two lengths will determine the travel and the fact that there is more travel in your pitman arm seems to suggest that your spindle arm might be longer. You have determined that the angles of the pitman arms with both cars pointing straight ahead are the same so maybe now compare the pitman arm angles on right full lock? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1930 Posted February 5, 2007 Share Posted February 5, 2007 The length of the pitman arm from center of ball to center of sector shaft is 8 inchesThe drag link length is 28 3/4 The measurement between the ball on pitman arm and drag link and the ball at front of drag link that goes into steering arm is 24 inchesThe distance between center of steering arm where it goes into spindle and the hole where ball goes into steering arm from drag link is 7 7/8 Distance from middle of steering arm right before it goes into spindle and the center od sector shaft is 23 5/8I really need someone who has a DA that is willing to take pict. of his car in different positions and will work with me to give me measurements at different points. I have had one guy here Pep offer to do that, I guess he is the only guy with a DA that pays attention to this forum. Trouble is he lives in a northern state and his garage is not heated. Thanks for the great ideas everyone but without someone that owns this car and is willing to take pict and measurements so that I can compare his from mine than at this point I am still at a loss. Harry has so little time and anyway trust me I already take so much time from him and give little in return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John1918 Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 Attached I hope are some pics of my Victory 6 arm, centre and both locks. Remember being RHD it will be mirror image to your DA. If not resolved by the weekend I will get my friend to bring his DA around (also RHD) and get some pics of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John1918 Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 Looks like the forum only allows one attachment so I will attach the most important one to this, Full lock left = your full lock right. If you would like any others while my car is jacked up lets know asap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1930 Posted February 6, 2007 Share Posted February 6, 2007 I see that is right hand drive, appreciate the picture but do not think that is DA, pretty sure it is the same pitman arm but very different drag link. That car sits on the floor I take it. You have some good ideas and appreciate your time, will keep you posted on the outcome, I am hoping that Pep will have the patience to take measurements and some pict. for me. Thanks again for your time, I really mean that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1930 Posted March 11, 2007 Share Posted March 11, 2007 I have been working with Pep thru e-mails and have measured many different points on my front end and everything seems to pretty much match up so I cleaned my garage, took a few weekends off and regrouped. This is what I have come up with.....I started all over and found the center point on my steering wheel, the wheel has roughly 2 3/4 turns point to point but just to make it simpler I will phrase it as somewhere between 2 1/2 and 3 turns. Anyway I have found what I am absaulutely confident to be the center point in the steering box and placed the wheel in this position. Then I attached my pitman arm /drag link assy (unattached at this point to the steering arm) to the sector shaft making sure that it was at the correct angle given to me by Pep from his car which is 78.5 degrees with the inclonometer sitting on the left side of pitman arm. I then adjusted my wheels so that they pointed straight forward and sure enough the other end of the drag link dropped into the steering arm. Now I turn the wheels all the way to the left counting the # of turns which is somewhere between 1 1/4 and 1 1/2. I then turn the wheels all the way to the right and it is clearly most definately the same amount of turns and yet the drag link comes up beyond and rubs the frame about an inch which I have again downloaded a picture here for anyones review. What I have come up with is that I believe the problem to be somewhere between the steering box sector shaft and the steering wheel itself. I dont believe any longer that it has anything to do with any susp. components because Pep has told me that his steering wheel has the same amount of turns in both directions and that when turned completely in either direction it travels all the way to its end and hits the stops on the spindle/axle. The way mine is set up now it does the same, it has the same amount of turns on the steering wheel from center to ends and it hits the stops in both directions. It does not matter what the heighth of drag link in relation to pitman arm or any of that because with the wheels turned all the way right I can disconnect the drag link from the steering arm raise or lowere it wherever I like and it still is to far up the frame. So any suggestions, friend of mine Jack Carpenter gave me a # of a guy that restores DAs cant remember where, anyway called him and believe it or not he is currently working on a four Dr. sedan now that does the exact same thing, he swapped EVERYTHING out as I have also tried and ended up giving up and modifying things so that it would not rub frame. I dont want to do this, I want things right and know there must be an answer to this. As mentioned I had the entire gearbox/column apart replacing worn out items with less worn out items but I cannot for the life of me figure out what could have been put back incorrectly. Any help would be appreciated, maybe someone has run across this before on another model of Dodge. I know everything is mispelled wrong Im an idiot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwollam Posted March 12, 2007 Share Posted March 12, 2007 Hi, I am not familiar with the DA steering but is the drag link supposed to be that curved? Looks like from that picture that if it was straighter it may clear the frame. Possibility? Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1930 Posted March 12, 2007 Share Posted March 12, 2007 definately no problem with drag link, thanks anyway though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gundog99 Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 Is the tyre touching any part of the frame? It might be an idear to reajust the "stop screw" on the front axle, after all this time, the stop on the steering knuckle is probable worn.This has been a problem with most of the Dodge's I have owened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrpushbutton Posted May 9, 2007 Share Posted May 9, 2007 Re: your inital post-- "<span style="font-style: italic">They really tore it down to the last nut and bolt but then seemed to rush putting it back together,( I am sure that the money cust. had paid was all of a sudden not enough)</span>"What usually happens is that the body work consumes far more $$$$ than anyone originally budgeted. Some body men are artistes, and perfect perfection, all the while the clock is ticking, ch-ching, ch-ching, CH-CHING!The customer cries Uncle, and needs the car put back together, stat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgy6 Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Holy thread revival Batman! :eek:Jason did you ever have a satisfactory outcome on this one? Enquiring minds want to know....And since I'll be starting my steering from scratch from the drop arm forward one day, then it will be comforting to know there is someone who has been through their's 3 ways from sunday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1930 Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Yes, I thought I had posted the outcome, maybe it was in another thread, the front axle was bent evenly. Maybe tow truck slung a chain around center of axle and pulled causing both spindles to rock back evenly. I took the axle out, clamped it in my frame machine and it straightened like butter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgy6 Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Yes, I thought I had posted the outcome, maybe it was in another thread, the front axle was bent evenly. Maybe tow truck slung a chain around center of axle and pulled causing both spindles to rock back evenly. I took the axle out, clamped it in my frame machine and it straightened like butter.Thanks Jason. It must be in another thread I havn't got to yet.I'm going through the back catalogue of old threads, (Backwards for some reason), to find any info, etc, that relates to my DA. I'm up to where you start making posts. Some of your early stuff is quite amusing when you consider your knowledge input now. What a noob! 3500+ posts later and nothings changed eh?!!!!Ross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgy6 Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Yes, I thought I had posted the outcome, maybe it was in another thread, the front axle was bent evenly. Maybe tow truck slung a chain around center of axle and pulled causing both spindles to rock back evenly. I took the axle out, clamped it in my frame machine and it straightened like butter.Oh and is that a frame straightening machine you are referring too?Is there a simple way for the amature (me) to tell if the frame is straight or is it a pro job? Mine looks straight enough but you never know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keiser31 Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 The easiest way to tell if a frame is straight in my opinion is to measure the dimension from the left front corner to the right rear corner. See if the dimension from the right front corner to the left rear corner matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1930 Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Thanks Jason. It must be in another thread I havn't got to yet.I'm going through the back catalogue of old threads, (Backwards for some reason), to find any info, etc, that relates to my DA. I'm up to where you start making posts. Some of your early stuff is quite amusing when you consider your knowledge input now. What a noob! 3500+ posts later and nothings changed eh?!!!!Ross.Lot has changed, now instead of just asking quiestions I am able to answer. them.I have owned the Dodge maybe a bit more than ten years now, not long, before that I had only owned muscle cars or as close as I could afford, Satellites instead of Road Runners, Plain Jane Coronets instead of Super Bees, Darts instead of Dart Gts.I did have a 69 Dart GT but it was so rusty you could put your fist thru the holes at base of rear window where the vinyl top started, also had one R.R, a 69 big block 4 spd car, that was the car I sold to pay for the 30 Dodge . I am glad I got rid of all of that am am satisfied putsing around on the old Dodge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1930 Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 (edited) Oh and is that a frame straightening machine you are referring too?Is there a simple way for the amature (me) to tell if the frame is straight or is it a pro job? Mine looks straight enough but you never know. Yes a car-o-liner. X out the frame underneath by using pre-manufactured holes or center of bolt/nut heads/rivet headsThe larger the X the farther out of square you are gonna be no matter what you are measring so keep that in mind. I wouldnt try and measure from one end of the car to other end is my point, it prob. will not be square. Brand new Chevy trucks are built with an allowable tolerance of at least 6 MM which in the real world means if its within 10 or 12 your good to go.Ive had them wider than that and still track down the road straight as an arrow.If its level on the stands you can measure height with a tape off the ground to give you a rough idea. You can do point to point measurements dedicated to a single side and then do a comparative measurement from the other side of the vehicle. You can make a tram gauge easy enough if you dont have one and if you google tram gauge and how its used to measure frames you will get more info than you need.No such thing as a pro job, people will tell you you cant do it because it requires special skills, special skills just means someone showed them or told them how to do it and they practiced till one day they could do it on their own and anyone can do that. Edited May 12, 2012 by 1930 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Zetnick Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Jason, just saw this post. I have a '29 DA where the steering has never been rebuilt. Not sure exactly what you are asking, but can any photos of mine help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 I'm glad you did figure it out. You were able to straighten the axle in-situ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1936 D2 Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 I'm glad you did figure it out. You were able to straighten the axle in-situ? See post #27. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1930 Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Jason, just saw this post. I have a '29 DA where the steering has never been rebuilt. Not sure exactly what you are asking, but can any photos of mine help? Thanks Bob, but I have it worked out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC5 Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 I wonder what kind of force it takes to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1930 Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Soft steel so very little force Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgy6 Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 The easiest way to tell if a frame is straight in my opinion is to measure the dimension from the left front corner to the right rear corner. See if the dimension from the right front corner to the left rear corner matches.huh, its that simple! Sometime my mind over complicates things automotive! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgy6 Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Lot has changed, now instead of just asking quiestions I am able to answer. them.I have owned the Dodge maybe a bit more than ten years now, not long, before that I had only owned muscle cars or as close as I could afford, Satellites instead of Road Runners, Plain Jane Coronets instead of Super Bees, Darts instead of Dart Gts.I did have a 69 Dart GT but it was so rusty you could put your fist thru the holes at base of rear window where the vinyl top started, also had one R.R, a 69 big block 4 spd car, that was the car I sold to pay for the 30 Dodge .I am glad I got rid of all of that am am satisfied putsing around on the old Dodge.I hear you. I thought about going all high octane on this one for about 5 minutes - and who would blame me with the state it is in. But then I realised how much more satisfaction I would get in bringing it back to life as it is supposed to be. When that day happens and I move it out of the shed under it's own steam, I may just shed a tear! :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now