titles on ebay

[Bhigdog]

I noticed people sell various vehicle documentation on Ebay. I have a valid title, data plate, and VIN # plate from a 55 Olds I scrapped. Is this stuff legal to sell on EBay? Why would someone want it?.........Bob

[ted sweet]

not legal to sell anywhere

[Bhigdog]

Just playing the Devil's advocate here. But couldn't it be argued that the title, data plate, and Vin plate constitute a "vehicle"? Wouldn't everything else just be "parts"? Some vehicles start the restoration process with not much more and end with that being about the only things "original".

[nearchoclatetown]

I've been told it violates Federal law to place a vin tag from one vehicle on another vehicle. This makes the new repro '69 Camaro, '57 Chevy convertibles, and '48-52 Chevy pickups very questionable. It violates Pa. state law to give an "open" {signed but not transfered} title to someone else. It's a $500 fine for both the owner and buyer. It's a long story, but I could explain how I know that.

[R Walling]

But, couldn't it be argued that the title, data plate, and Vin plate are

historical items that a collector would want to preserve for history? <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

[R Walling]

Ps, I am told that there are more 32 ford roadsters registered

in Ca., than Henry ever made!

[ted sweet]

ebay will cancel such auctions and subspend the seller's account.

[joe_padavano]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've been told it violates Federal law to place a vin tag from one vehicle on another vehicle. This makes the new repro '69 Camaro, '57 Chevy convertibles, and '48-52 Chevy pickups very questionable.</div></div>

That is not correct. The applicable federal law is Title 18 of United States Code, Chapter 25, Section 511. You can read it for yourself here:

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=browse_usc&docid=Cite:+18USC511

There are a lot of double and triple negatives in the text, but the bottom line is that it is illegal to swap VIN plates with the intent to commit fraud. The legal owner of the vehicle or a designated repair shop IS allowed to remove and replace the VIN tag if such removal and replacement "...is reasonably necessary for the repair...". I had a long talk with the vendor selling the repro Camaro bodies at Carlisle last summer and as a business owner you can bet he has had his lawyer research this in detail.

Think about it this way. Say you own a brand new GM pickup and a tree falls on the cab. You can run down to the GM dealer and buy a brand new body-in-white cab. This new cab does not come with a VIN tag - you need to swap the one from your old crushed cab. One caveat is that state law may override federal in this instance, so be sure you know the requirements in your specific state.

[nearchoclatetown]

Your example of the truck constitutes what's called a reconstructed vehicle in Pa. which gets a state issued blue vin tag.

[Bhigdog]

Again the Devil's advocate here. Suppose through some accident only a portion of the dash and the tag got destroyed in a relatively minor incident. Would the repaired vehicle then be stuck with a reconstructed title? Sounds kind of extreme. BTW, I looked through EBay's no-no list and didn't see anything vehicle title/VIN specific.....Bob.

[joe_padavano]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Your example of the truck constitutes what's called a reconstructed vehicle in Pa. which gets a state issued blue vin tag. </div></div>

As I noted, it is NOT against federal law to remove and reattach a VIN tag in the course of a repair, but some states have superceding, more restrictive laws.

[ted sweet]

so you think putting a VIN tag on a reproduction body and then selling the car isn't a fraudulent intent?

[MCHinson]

Fraud would involve intending to deceive. As long as it was identified acurately as what it truly is, it would not constitute Fraud. Selling a reproduction as an original WOULD be Fraud, but selling a reproduction identifed as a reproduction would NOT be Fraud.

[D Binger]

Remember that visiting days are Thursdays <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

[nearchoclatetown]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fraud would involve intending to deceive. As long as it was identified acurately as what it truly is, it would not constitute Fraud. Selling a reproduction as an original WOULD be Fraud, but selling a reproduction identifed as a reproduction would NOT be Fraud. </div></div>Soo, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, as long as I SAY it's a chicken that makes it OK? My hair is starting to hurt! If a real vin tag is placed on what looks like a real car how long is the fake story going to be told? It's still a fake. The Dynamark and CARS bodies are fantastic for what they are, but they should NEVER have a real vin tag attached to them.

[MCHinson]

The point that I was trying to make was that the title for a rebodied vehicle should indicate that it is a rebodied vehicle. A salvage vehicle would have a salvage title. If the title work accurately describes what it is, it would not constitute fraud (at least under the laws of my state.) If those same types of vehicles had a title that did not indicate what it truly was, then THAT would constitute Fraud.

[R Walling]

While we are on the subject of fraud, if you own aa Chevy and you instal

after market bumpers, hood, fenders, doors, rocker panels, floors,

qut. panels and trunk lid along with all the chrome and lights,

Is it still a Chevy?

[joe_padavano]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">While we are on the subject of fraud, if you own aa Chevy and you instal

after market bumpers, hood, fenders, doors, rocker panels, floors,

qut. panels and trunk lid along with all the chrome and lights,

Is it still a Chevy? </div></div>

Amen. I've always wondered why the few square inches of sheet metal surrounding the VIN tag are sacred ground, but it's OK to replace anything else. I've seen buildups of cars (OK, Goodmark was trying to hype their repro panels...) where the roof, quarters, floors, trunklid, front fenders, and hood were replaced with repro parts. At what point on this slippery slope does the cowl become sacred? Face it - when GM built a W-30 442, they started with a Cutlass body shell. Replacing the quarters, roof, and front fenders on my W-30 with Cutlass parts is OK, but replacing the entire body shell isn't? I've still got the frame, engine, trans, etc, etc from the original car. Using a complete, rust free western shell ends up with a better final product anyway, since now all the welds are factory welds, the seams are correct, and there's nowhere near the amount of filler that repro or used panels would require. Besides, by using an original shell, these are factory-manufacured parts, not repros. One situation is considered "fraud" by some people, but the other isn't? I fully plan to document the process and (while I never plan to sell the car) would disclose it to any potential buyer. I'm sorry, but I fail to see where the line is.

[nearchoclatetown]

Seeing that you own a '69 Hurst Olds, I'll bet we find out where that line should be drawn if when you start sanding for a repaint and find a burnt orange cowl with dark green quarter panels. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[mymolalla]

You are not allowed to sell titles on ebay. Some do, and slip through the net, but the first time they catch you they will cancel the auction, the next time they will cancel all your auctions, then you go into suspension territory. The selling of titles off ebay is legal in itself, Broadway Title and others have been doing it openly and inter-state for years. The application of those titles is not so legal in most places.

What I don't get is the selling of a car on ebay without a title, which is fine by them. Which do you think has the most potential for fraud; selling an entire car with no documentation out of state, or selling vintage titles (pre-1970, say)like a 1935 Hupmobile title from a car thats been crushed? There are a mere handful of vintage titles floating around compared to the millions of cars that someone could scoop off a street, tear off the VIN and deface a feww other ID plates and sell for cash. I can guarantee there are many cases known and unknown of stolen cars laundered nicely through ebay. (You might remember the guy that recovered his corvette after decades when it couldn't get through customs for an overseas Ebay buyer)

[mymolalla]

Here's the kind of nightmare that title and vin swapping can lead to...

http://www.sportscarmarket.com/articles/archives/809

http://www.boston.com/news/odd/articles/2006/04/11/owner_to_get_back_motorcycle_taken_in_1971/

http://wsacp.vendio.com/mesg/read.html?num=28&thread=285698

[1937hd45]

I guess this is only a problem for people with post WWII vehicles, that live in states that are hung up on a piece of paper. Cut out the VIN number area of the vehicle with 6-12 inches of panel weld it in by yourself, finish off the weld area prime it,keep your mouth shut and go on to the next step of your restoration. Where doing RESTORATIONS! NOT grand theft auto! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

[Bhigdog]

I really didn't think of a fraudulent use of the title/tags since they are just from a run of the mill 55 Olds 2 Dr. I see where someone could steal another Olds somewhere and then "launder" it with my title/tags. I think I'll just put the stuff in my "never used and soon forgotten about" pile. I don't need a call from someones lawyer or the police a few years down the road.......Bob

[Guest Albert]

One other thing people have done with old tiles is to get it licenced, and insured then 6 months later report it as stolen, try finding a car that was crushed 30 years before. And what do you do when a restorer takes 2 cars and makes one from it, what serial# or title should you use? There was a case where one restorer had i think a model a when he went to regester his old title is was already regestered to another owner, seems his body was the same serial # as the engine which had been remove many years before which another restorer had used to regestered another car..

[Joe Block]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One other thing people have done with old tiles is to get it licenced, and insured then 6 months later report it as stolen, try finding a car that was crushed 30 years before. And what do you do when a restorer takes 2 cars and makes one from it, what serial# or title should you use? There was a case where one restorer had i think a model a when he went to regester his old title is was already regestered to another owner, seems his body was the same serial # as the engine which had been remove many years before which another restorer had used to registered another car.. </div></div>

Now how many time has that happen, by title for the 42 limo has a 48 engine so the serial number on the title is 48 for the 42 packard, but it still register as a 42. should re register it as a 48, I don't think so.

[mymolalla]

I don't think the issue is about a car you have and are restoring. Everyone says "Hey, I'm never gonna sell this car.." But unfortunately, everyone dies, then your Frankenstein with the unoriginal vin turns into the real deal when your wife or son or daughter sells it, and suddenly that 32 roadster title that was bought and attched to a cobbled together pile of parts suddenly becomes a factory deuce roadster project, and some guy over-pays for what he thinks is the real deal. I don't think that's right.

[joe_padavano]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Seeing that you own a '69 Hurst Olds, I'll bet we find out where that line should be drawn if when you start sanding for a repaint and find a burnt orange cowl with dark green quarter panels. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> </div></div>

Actually, to me the body panels are only sheet metal. My H/O is badly rusted in the pinchweld areas around the windshield and back window. Frankly, it's significantly less expensive for me to get a rust free Cutlass body than to try to patch this rust. The end result will be better, and frankly, that's how Hurst built the cars in the first place. Besides, after a bare metal paint job, no one will be finding burnt orange paint. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

More to the point, how different is this from welding in a new roof, new quarters, etc? I've still got the original frame, the block is long gone, but I do have the correct trans and rear end. I plan to keep this car for myself. It's 1969 H/O no. 180, originally purchased by one Jerry Felson, if you want to flag it for future potential buyers. I'd give you the VIN except I don't have it in front of me.

[joe_padavano]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here's the kind of nightmare that title and vin swapping can lead to...

</div></div>

I must be slow, so help me out. How do stolen cars, which are all three of your links, have anything to do with repair or restoration where both the car being restored and the donor car are both legally owned? If you replace a quarter panel with a used part that you buy on ebay, how to you know that the used quarter didn't come from a stolen car?

[mymolalla]

"I must be slow, so help me out. How do stolen cars, which are all three of your links, have anything to do with repair or restoration where both the car being restored and the donor car are both legally owned? If you replace a quarter panel with a used part that you buy on ebay, how to you know that the used quarter didn't come from a stolen car? "

Nothing. It was in reference to my posting right above it. It's what can happen, not what happens in every case.

As for the fender issue, a stolen item is a stolen item, if it's $1 or $10,000. I don't condone either one, it's wrong. Whether I am able to determine if a part is stolen or not is irrelevant to me. I feel most people are honest, and my ebay experience has borne that out. Swapping VINS is illegal. What you do with after you know that is up to you.

Ach. This is my last input on this can of worms! I'll go back to identifying gauges!

[ted sweet]

so if but a hurst VIN on a Cutlass you think thats ok?

[Pontiac59]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are not allowed to sell titles on ebay. Some do, and slip through the net, but the first time they catch you they will cancel the auction, the next time they will cancel all your auctions, then you go into suspension territory. The selling of titles off ebay is legal in itself, Broadway Title and others have been doing it openly and inter-state for years. The application of those titles is not so legal in most places.

What I don't get is the selling of a car on ebay without a title, which is fine by them. Which do you think has the most potential for fraud; selling an entire car with no documentation out of state, or selling vintage titles (pre-1970, say)like a 1935 Hupmobile title from a car thats been crushed? There are a mere handful of vintage titles floating around compared to the millions of cars that someone could scoop off a street, tear off the VIN and deface a feww other ID plates and sell for cash. I can guarantee there are many cases known and unknown of stolen cars laundered nicely through ebay. (You might remember the guy that recovered his corvette after decades when it couldn't get through customs for an overseas Ebay buyer) </div></div>

Might have something to do with the fact that New York does not use titles on 1972 and older cars, Vermont does not use titles on cars more than 15 years old, amd there are other states which have similar laws.

I can get a new registration on a 1973 car in NY the same day if I have all the right forms in order. 30-90 days later if the number doesn't come up as hot on hard copy at the state capital, I get a transferrable registration. I'll happily buy any solid, cheap, PA or NJ "no title parts car" any day of the week just for that reason. NY also does not keep track of the serial numbers of 1973 and older cars that get scrapped, and guys play fast and loose with anything more than 20 years old that is supposed to have a title. One yard I just saw scrapped there was maybe half a dozen title cars - so far as I know they just got mashed in with the rest, no one checked the tags on anything. (we did save 30 cars or so out of there, out of maybe 600).

eBay's attitude is to have a "parts car" category - but you can't even mention "title" "bill of sale" "reciept" or anything remotely related to being useable to put a car on the road - not only can you not say a car has one, you can't say the car does NOT have one. They just want you to use the flat fee categories, since generally they net more money on those fees.

And the rules for that category specifically say that a title etc. is not allowed to be sold without an operational vehicle - a nonop vehicle is not allowed to be sold with one, according to them. Which, you just don't mention if it has one or not in the listing and let buyers ask you about it, or do like I did and explain the situation on my My eBay page. As long as the car needs some kind of work to drive, you're okay.

Why would a guy buy your old title and plate? It's pretty easy to swap tags on these old cars, most inspectors wouldn't know the incorrect rivets or spotwelds, or you can claim it came that way, whatever - and it can be far easier to just have a clean title than to get them to give you a new one. I've heard stories of guys being told their Model A hot rod has to be registered as a 1989 Chevrolet because that happens to be the year of the engine they used in it. Which means it needs all the safety appliances a 1989 car has, mirrors, impact bumpers, and so on. It's just a cheat, and while it's illegal, there's nothing really wrong with it so long as you use it for your own purposes, to register your car, and disclose this information to a new buyer. However, I wouldn't go doing that on high dollar collector cars, either - but a $3000 driver 4-door Studebaker I don't see anyone going nuts over because the serial number's been swapped with one a few thousand different than it came with.

Most guys I see selling titles call them "historical documents" - everyone knows what you're talking about but you don't have to mention it by name.

[Pontiac59]

I should add it is perfectly legal to sell a cowl tag on eBay. The right ones bring good money for guys who want to paint their car a certain color and show it and have the right codes on it. They are not related to anything needed to register a car, at least on 1950's-1960's GM cars.

[nearchoclatetown]

I find it amusing that you would list your cars for sale in your signature after a speech like this! The hemi clone Cuda, that turned into a big lawsuit, I referanced in my clone thread was from N.Y.

[joe_padavano]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">so if but a hurst VIN on a Cutlass you think thats ok? </div></div>

Sorry, but I'm still not getting your point. First, there's no such thing as a "Hurst VIN", since these cars were built on a 442 VIN (and FYI, in 1968 and 1969, Fisher Body used a Cutlass body data tag despite the 442 VIN - this is documented in the Fisher Body Manual for those years, so even GM figured out that sheet metal is just sheet metal). More to the point, I legally own a real, documented 69 Hurst. I plan to legally buy a rust free body shell. The frame will be the original frame from the Hurst so the VIN tag WILL match the stamped VIN on the frame. The trans is the original trans. The heads, intake, carb are original. The block had a cracked cylinder and has been replaced. Obviously this is a body off resto, since the body has to come off to swap the shell. Now how is reattaching the VIN tag to the new shell, which is legal under Federal Law in this repair instance, any different from keeping the cowl and welding on the quarter, roof, and floor pans from the donor?

From what you've written, I assume you're OK with the massive sheet metal replacement, so long as the sacred six square inches are not disturbed? Is it fraud to replace the block in a musclecar? All GMs built from 1968-on have a VIN derivative stapmed on the block (and the trans and rear axle). It's OK to change these parts but not sheet metal? Frankly, originality of the engine is more important in a vintage musclecar than the body sheet metal as far as I'm concerned.

Putting a 442 VIN on a Cutlass and keeping the 350 motor, drum brakes, and base suspension but calling it a 442 is fraud. Transfering your exsisting 442 VIN tag to another rust free body shell in the course of a restoration, in my opinion, is no different than replacing the quarters, roof, floors, rockers, doors, and trunklid. Or would you rather just see the rusty car crushed to further inflate the worth of the remaining ones?

[Carbuff2]

WELL FOR THE FIRST TIME .... I AM HAPPY THAT I LIVE IN CALIFORNIA WHICH NORMALLY HAS THE LAWS THAT WE CAN NEVER UNDERSTAND THE REASON FOR AND A WASTE OF TIME AND MONEY .... HOWEVER, HAVING PURCHASED SEVERAL VEHICLES FROM OUT OF STATE ... OREGON, MICHIGAN, WEST VIRGINIA .... THAT WERE LEGITIMATE CARS WITH CURRENT TITLES ORIGINAL VIN NUMBER AND ID PLATES .... WHEN THE VEHICLES ARE BEING REGISTERED IT IS NECESSARY THAT THE HIWAY PATROL VERIFY YOUR "PUBLIC VIN" (the vin that everyone sees and has been referred to in this post) as compared to VIN NUMBERS THAT APPEAR ANYWHERE ON THE FRAME OR OTHER BODY PANELS, HIDDEN PURPOSELY TO PREVENT THE TYPE OF MISREPRESENTATION THAT COULD BE DONE IF IT WASN'T CHECK. YOU WILL HAVE A PROBLEM PASSING THIS INSPECTION AND TITLING YOUR CAR. DON'T SELL ME ONE OF THOSE CARS AT ANY PRICE.

[joe_padavano]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...IT IS NECESSARY THAT THE HIWAY PATROL VERIFY YOUR "PUBLIC VIN" (the vin that everyone sees and has been referred to in this post) as compared to VIN NUMBERS THAT APPEAR ANYWHERE ON THE FRAME OR OTHER BODY PANELS, HIDDEN PURPOSELY TO PREVENT THE TYPE OF MISREPRESENTATION THAT COULD BE DONE IF IT WASN'T CHECK. </div></div>

If a car has a rusty frame (as many eastern convertibles with boxed frames do), would you be comfortable with swapping the frame? Under the scenario you describe above, that would be flagged by the CHP. Under my scenario, it would not, since the new body would have the old VIN tag and be sitting on the old frame.

Newer cars have the VIN stamped on fenders, doors, and other bolt-on parts. If these parts are replaced in an accident, that would also be a violation under the scenario you describe.

Let me try this again. Under FEDERAL LAW (and I said in my very first post that state law may vary) it is LEGAL to do the swap I described. You need to have documented proof of legal ownership of both vehicles.

I'll ask again, because despite all the shouting, no one has answered my original question. What's the difference between replacing all the sheet metal (doors, fenders, floor, rockers, trunklid) and replacing the complete body shell?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">YOU WILL HAVE A PROBLEM PASSING THIS INSPECTION AND TITLING YOUR CAR.</div></div>

You might want to pick up a copy of Street Rodder from a few months ago. They went though the process of registering an "assembled" car in Calif. Turns out California is one of the more enlightened states in this area. There's a lot of paperwork involved, but if you have all the receipts and documentation, the process is pretty straightforward.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">DON'T SELL ME ONE OF THOSE CARS AT ANY PRICE. </div></div>

Don't worry, I won't.

[Jay Wolf]

Haven't done this with Cars but it is common on Motorcycles.

The VIN is Stamped on the frame. the frame is bent quite often in accidents so it must be replaced. I know on BMW the replacement frames come numberless.

in Indiana you have to have a police officer verify

first the old frame is unusable

two the vin # of the unusable frame

Three that the old vin number is stamped on the replacement frame.

I think on BMW you had return the bent frame to BMW

then you're good to go.

Or at least that is how it was done a few years ago.

[Guest BJM]

Joe,

This is kind of off subject, kind of on. On the 69 H/O, even though the original body is in bad shape as you mention, rusty and such, it's still the original H/O body that was sent through the Lansing skunk works, so to me, that would be worth saving at a greater cost, then getting some Cutlass grocery getter body.

It's your car of course, but to me, some cars have "souls" not too sound too corny, but a lot of times owners describe their cars as women and such.

Is a Mona Lisa reproduction still the Mona Lisa? Our eyes move across the same image, take in the same details but one canvas is one week old, the other is (how ever many years the Mona Lisa is old).

One thing we can agree on: Damn you RUST!!!!

[Carbuff2]

To Joe Padavano,

YOU WOULD BE ABLE TO REGISTER YOUR VEHICLE IN CALIFORNIA WITH AN "ASSIGNED VIN NUMBER" BECAUSE YOU PROVED THAT IT WAS YOUR VEHICLE .... THEY WOULD NOT REGISTER/TITLE YOUR CAR WITH A VIN NUMBER THAT WAS ABLE TO BE VERIFIED IN TWO INDEPENDENT PLACES .... AN I WOULD NOT BUY ANY CAR WITH AN ASSIGNED NUMBER .... TO ME IT IS NO DIFFERENT THAN A SALVAGE TITLE .... ITS PRETTY SIMPLE, IF YOU PURCHASE A QUALITY AUTOMOBILE IT WILL HAVE THE CORRECT VIN NUMBERS IN THE CORRECT PLACES AND BE REGISTERED BY THAT NUMBER, IF YOU BRING BACK TO LIFE A DEAD AUTOMOBILE WITH RUSTY FRAME & BODY IT IS NO LONGER THAT AUTOMOBILE. EXAMPLE: GEORGE WASHINGTONS HATCHET "FOR SALE" THE HEAD HAS BEEN REPLACED THREE TIMES AND THE HANDLE FOUR TIMES ..... IS IT STILL GEORGE WASHINGTONS HATCHET? I DON'T THINK SO .... THAT IS THE REASON THAT ON A LIMITED PRODUCTION AUTOMOBILE, 40 YEARS LATER THERE ARE MORE REGISTERED THAN WERE MANUFACTURED .... THEY EVEN HAVE A GREAT NAME FOR THEM "RECREATION" NO, NOT FOR ME.

[Carbuff2]

ADDENDUM TO JOE .... A STREET ROD DOESN'T PRETEND TO BE ANYTHING THAT IT ISN'T .... THAT IS OK, THEY JUST WANT TO REGISTER THEM. IT IS DECEPTION TO CHANGE & INSTALL VIN NUMBERS FROM ONE VEHICLE TO ANOTHER.