Another one bites the dust!

[poci1957]

Whew, glad I was not reading what I thought. I can always appreciate your looking at new ideas, as for better or worse the hobby is always shifting, but street rods are unacceptable to the mission of the club, IMO. The new look at the magazine is fresher and I think the HPOF class is a great idea, is it working to attract new people? Thanks, Todd C

[Guest]

If I read Steve correctly, we now have a class for "bow legged women!"

[Rawja]

I don't understand the furor that modified and newer vehicles seem to engender 'round here. From a strictly financial viewpoint any organization that relies on dues for its support would be well served to cast the largest net possible when trying to recruit new members, no?

All this talk about the "kids" modifying their errr..."Jap" cars is nothing new, prior generations did the same to the inexpensive and plentiful vehicles available to them at the time, and the hobby was/is stronger for it.

Will a Honda Odyssey appear at Hershey in the future? Probably...who knows? I have an '84 Seville Elegante, when she hits the 25 year mark I don't see how anyone will rationally object to it gaining antique status nor my '89 Reatta when it reaches the magic age for acceptance at AACA events. It'll be fun for me when one of my '93 Trans Sports reach the 25-year mark, and given that GM APV enthusiasts are few and far between, I imagine it'll be a fairly rare vehicle by then. Admittedly, I have somewhat quirky taste in cars, but hey, I'm sure plenty of us have or desire cars that aren't strictly speaking milestones in the history of the automobile, but for whatever reason, appeal to us on a gut level. The AACA should encourage the collection and preservation of our automotive history, whether it's a Model A or a Plymouth Sapporo, without predjudice.

Electronics have made the automobile more reliable than could have been imagined 20 years ago. Audi's quality woes aside for a moment, the antipathy towards computer controls is unwarranted and seems to be based more on fear and ignorance than anything else. Restoring and maintaining computer controlled cars is EASIER than pre-computer cars, you just gotta wrap yer head around the differing skill set required for trouble-shooting the systems.

On hot rods and other modifieds well, this will be the tastes great/less filling debate that will continue in perpetuity. "Originality" has its obvious merit, but self-expression and artistic modifications have merit too. I dare anyone to look at an extremely well-done hot rod say for instance Cadzilla and not be moved by the accentuation of the original Cadillac styling cues to create what is arguably a work of art. The original cars provide context and content that the hot rod then plays off of to express more succinctly the spirit of the original. Sorta like a concept car in reverse. Of course that's a best case scenario, and there are plenty of Frankenstein's monster hot rods out there which are abominations, but it's impossible to regulate taste.

Vive la difference!

[Steve Moskowitz]

Tommy, as usual you neither read nor got it correctly! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> The bow legged class is gender nuetral and available to all regardless of sex. We do not discriminate. It is a sub-category in our HPOF program.. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[1937hd45]

Rawja, Thanks for your post it has renewed my Audi TT ownership hopes that Matt crushed with his post. To me the only new car on the road today that turns my head is an Audi TT Coupe, but cost and social status prevent me from having one. Some day when the electrical systems die on a TT I may be able to afford one. At that time there is no differance parking it in the garage along side a good looking car from the 1930's that I can't wire either. Thanks for the inspiration.

[Matt Harwood]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rawja, Thanks for your post it has renewed my Audi TT ownership hopes that Matt crushed with his post. To me the only new car on the road today that turns my head is an Audi TT Coupe, but cost and social status prevent me from having one. Some day when the electrical systems die on a TT I may be able to afford one. At that time there is no differance parking it in the garage along side a good looking car from the 1930's that I can't wire either. Thanks for the inspiration. </div></div>

Pick one up used--Audis have AWFUL resale values. I'll bet you can get a nice used one that's been well-maintained for 35% of sticker price. I'm sorry that my post may have quashed your dreams. These really are great cars to drive and you're absolutely right--they're like artwork to look at. The baseball glove interior in Julia's car gets compliments any time we put the top down.

But yeah, the electrical gremlins concern me. None of them [directly] disable the car, and they always seem to fix themselves. But I'm always concerned about a dead battery and carry jumper cables everywhere. On the other hand, it's an absolute hoot to drive and invincible in the snow. I drive it in the worst weather just for fun. I can out-accelerate any 4WD vehicle in 6 inches of snow. It's totally worth the gremlins because it's so fun to drive.

So go get one, <span style="font-weight: bold">1937hd45</span>! The mechanicals themselves are virtually indestructible and other than the gremlins, we haven't had one major problem in more than 62,000 miles of driving.

Here are my thoughts on electronics in cars: In Defense of Electronics

[Twitch]

I think part of the problem as such is each person's personal definition of a classic car. I don't believe every rent a wreck that rolls down the road that is 25 years old is a classic or an antique. To me an antique is more in the non-auto description of something 50 years or more old. A classic is a lower production quantity auto with some distinctive styling and/or mechanical features. A 37 Cord is a classic and a 37 Ford isn't---to me, only to me, perhaps. 942,000 37 Fords or 942,000 of anything does not equal rare. 1,146 1937 Cords is a different story, huh?

Id's say a 37 Cord is a classic and a 37 Ford is a special interest car. But that's just me. Well it must be some others too when you look at value disparity for the 2 cars mentioned.

Modified cars are special interest cars- hot rods etc. and less than 100% restored-to-stock cars. Gremlins and Pintos 25 years old + are just special interest cars also even if they're stock. 66 GTOs are too. They're not rare or high quality or distinctive.

I can't reconcile placing a 38 Bugatti Atlantic, a 37 Delage, a 38 Talbot Lago, a 33 Marmon V-16, a 35 Chrysler Airflow or a 33 Dusenberg in the same category as a 32 Ford, 60 Studebaker, 54 DeSoto, 70 GTO, 80 VW or a 29 Chevy. Whether it's in some club's definitions or in one's personal thinking it is obvious the above examples are not the same. Distinctive vs mundane perhaps says it best.

I think people that can't afford a half million dollar restoration of a 37 Delahaye have rationalized that their 37 Ford is an equal entity. And obviously it is widespread due to the fact that assorted clubs mirror that example calling cars that have simply survived a pre-determined length of time as a classic.

If clubs change their classes by adding some it still doesn't mean the original classes are invalid. It means that people with the newly recognized classes might infuse some membership money into the tired old organization. It doesn't mean the new classes will take over and eclipse the original clubsters. It means the organization is spreading its monetary base out in a desire to survive.

It's just fine to have a class that is a 100% showroom stock. It is fine to have a modified class of special interest cars. The public don't mind seeing both at the same venue. They just don't want to see an over abunance of either. If clubs balance their membership's cars at viewing sites everyone will be happy.

A person can go see a 34 Lincoln and a modified 61 Bonneville at the same venue. Hmm? Don't we already have that opportunity at nearly every local car show and cruise-in? So why should any big time club be different? Keep the original classes. Revere them if you want but to stay afloat financially some clubs need to think about infusing a diversity of automobilia to encompass modified cars and even distinctive European autos.

The cars people bandy about in phrases as "classic" or "antique" are 1980s econo-boxes that were spit out with hundreds of thousands of clones. This is just wrong and you all know it. These cars 25 yeas old are not finding their way into national organizations showings or even local cruise-ins for that matter. To mention them is esoteric at best since they have no impact on show venues at all or the hobby in general. No body wants to look at or collect 1980 K Cars or Datsuns. Anyone that truly believes that mass-produced schlockmobiles of the 80s or 90s are now or will be in the future valid "classics" or "antiques" is deluding themselves.

How far into the future will it be when a Taurus is rare?

The conditions that created unique automobiles that many revere today are gone forever. The miniuscule few current lower production special models or expensive exotics are lonesome exceptions. They don't amount to enough to drive a hobby of distinctive cars in the future.

So OK allow a guy with an immaculate 72 Ford LTD in your club in a class that is different than your 1926 Franklin's class. Just don't call them both unique, rare or quality autos.

I just hate when the car bigots approach me at shows and cruise-ins telling me how great they think my car is since it's so stock. There are many types of car classifications out there and I enjoy looking at them all as do most people. Bigots are true minorities and are shunned by normal people.

It's fine to have a Studebaker Lark club and exclude all other cars. Don't cry when you don't have enough money to function due to the fact that the number of Lark owners belonging to your clubs is making it difficult. Maybe it's time to merge with the Avanti club. And the Champion club finding times tough could also merge. Wait a minute! Let's have a whole Studebaker club! What are all of the national, multi-marque clubs if not what I just described? Many disiplines merging together to form one club.

People have to assess if any club, car or otherwise, is relevant to their needs at any given time. What was great in 1988 may be way off today.

Don't anyone get their panties in a bunch- the "car club" phrase shouldn't be applied to any club living or dead- it is a simply a sterile example for illustrative purposes.

[poci1957]

I do not think there is a definition problem at all in AACA, 25 years or older and you can show the car, probably the most democratic admission rule of any car club with judging. The classic vs. special interest issue is not a problem, nor is import or domestic, as all are welcome and always have been. Some of us may not personally like the Pinto, Datsun, 1970s models, etc, but they are all allowed and can come to the show. The Delahaye vs Ford and classic vs special interest are more an issue with CCCA, Pebble Beach, and other high end shows and clubs that are more restrictive. The 25 year rule also means that unlike the other clubs a new crop of cars are eligible every year; again, I may not be interested in a 1979 LTD but if it can stand up to judging it is no less deserving to attend than a 1955 Ford was in 1980 when I got into old cars. The only problem some have are that the judging system rewards authentic cars and that eliminates heavily modified cars from the show, and I say what is wrong with that? Todd

[ex98thdrill]

You see Twitch, that's where I think the HPOF class is a slap in the face to car owners. With the HPOF you can have an immaculate, original Packard parked next to an all original '77 Chevy Chevette. Both cars are original, both cars are AACA eligible, but both cars are light years apart.

I've always believed that an HPOF certified car should be parked in the class that the car rightfully belongs in.

A good case in point?? Matt Wilson and his '69 Hurst SC/Rambler. That car is a nice, rare, original car that has survived. In the case of Greensburg, Matt got a 1st Junior in his class. On that day, the show rained real hard, and he was the only car in his class. Matt got his required number of points, and got his 1st Junior. The complaint that I have is that I had heard some people say that the car should've been in the HPOF class because it is an original car, and I think the people who made those comments are dead wrong.

Today Matt's car wears a 1st Junior plate on the front of it, and you probably won't find anyone who is more proud of having that 1st Junior plate than Matt. The problem that I see is that had there been a bunch of cars in the class, Matt might not have gotten the award based on the 10 point spread. My father and I spent a great deal of time with Matt at Greensburg. I know Matt had the illusion that AACA was all about uptight and arrogant people and was surprised to find people like my dad and I who are common working people, who enjoy their cars just like he does. In Matt's case, he joined AACA, he brought his car to a meet, he wasn't made to feel out of place, he won awards (which he earned), and despite the rain, still had a good time. The experience that Matt got is probably the best thing that can be done to promote AACA. I would safely say that since Greensburg, Matt has been out promoting AACA instead of trying to turn people away. I know I've heard some horror stories about some of the other clubs (like the Corvette club), and eventually I think they'll end up hurting themselves in the long road ahead.

My solution?? HPOF cars go for HPOF certification. If they are certified as being factory original and correct, the next show those HPOF certified cars go into their respective classes where they belong. As long as a car is all original, and has the HPOF plate on the front of the car, I feel that the car should be able to go as high as the car can go as long as it meets the required points for the award sought. .....regardless of the point spread. The way to identify the HPOF cars in the class is simply by changing the color of the judging card to make it different from the Junior, Senior and Preservation cards.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I have always been under the belief that the real basis of AACA is to preserve the automobile. Shouldn't all the original cars be placed in the right classes as long as they've been HPOF certified? Right now you have the restored cars that were once neglected go to the front row of the meet, where the HPOF cars that have been taken care of go to the back row??

How can that make sense??

[Jay Wolf]

I think HPOF still has to be 35 years old.

But the older I get the less 35 years is.

But I agree it would be nice to have them side by side and it would also help the judges check for originality on the competition cars.

[K8096]

Your post makes a lot of sense. I too believe that once you get the HPOF badge, you should be able to park your car in it's normal class & not get it judged if you prefer. I've said this before, and I know some disagree, but to me it makes no sense having a 1920 whatever parked with a 1960 whatever in HPOF every meet. Believe me, the guy with the 1920 car would rather be parked with the other early cars.

[1937hd45]

Pat, Your view of HPOF is what it should be, 1st Meet you enter the vehicle and get "Certified", from then on you park the vehicle in the proper class. You can't tell me two guys with HPOF cars one a 1907 Cadillac and you pick a 35 year garage queen have anything in common. The cars need to be on the show field with others from there eras. The guy restoring another '07 Caddy sure isn't going to wade through a sea of 1950's cars in hopes of finding that original twin to his.

[ex98thdrill]

You know on another thought, with as big as Hershey is, who wants to bring your car to Hershey every year and get stuck out in the back to be parked in the HPOF class, being mixed in with everything and everything, and then be the last or next to last when it comes to the awards ceremony??

My thoughts are if you want people to join AACA and bring their cars, put them where they belong and not all bunched together like a fruit salad. If a guy has a '37 Ford and he's parked next to another '37 Ford, he'll probably get more enjoyment talking to the guy next to him who has another '37 Ford than he would being with someone with a Volkswagon (that applies both ways too). As a matter of fact, if he has a positive experience at a show, then he'll be more prone to pay his dues and bring his car back next year to do it again.

Don't get me wrong, we don't have any HPOF cars to speak of, but I'm sure there are a lot of others that do who would bring them out if they weren't isolated from similar cars of its' vintage and type. The HPOF cars are really the benchmark of what the whole hobby is all about.

I'm not trying to poor gas on a fire, I'm only thinking of ways to get more people and cars involved.

[novaman]

Just one question Pat, Do you as a judge, want to run all over the show field Like at hershey trying to find all the HPOF car that you have to re-certify? I think that is probably the biggest reason why they are grouped.

[K8096]

Then lets group them pre war & post war. That could be a good compromise.

[1937hd45]

I thought once you got "Certified" and attach that HPOF oval to your vehicle it was just an attendance thing the next time around. Vehilce is here, collect chip that night.

[stock_steve]

"...Your post makes a lot of sense. I too believe that once you get the HPOF badge, you should be able to park your car in it's normal class & not get it judged if you prefer..."

I don't see what would stop anyone from doing just that.

Our '73 Pinto's not old enough for HPOF yet, but we still entered it in the Hershey show last year--with a "do not judge"--and had a great time being there "right in the thick of it," among all the other show cars, grouped in our class, of course, with the other similar-vintage production vehicles (class 27j).

We do, however, look forward to going for HPOF certification, when the car's old enough.

[ex98thdrill]

Not at all David. You're missing it.

What my thoughts are, (and only thoughts) would be (for example) you bring an original 1972 Chevelle SS going for HPOF certification. You take the Chevelle to a meet, and the judges determine that the Chevelle has earned its' HPOF certification. Once you get your HPOF certification at a meet, the next time that same Chevelle comes to an AACA meet, it would go into Class #27-J. Class #27-J would be the correct class to place that Chevelle. Once that car goes to class #27-J, it would have the HPOF badge on the front, a different color judging card from the restored cars, and would then go for a 1st Junior.

In simpler terms, once the car gets HPOF certified, the HPOF badge goes onto the front of the car, it leaves the HPOF class, and it never goes back to the HPOF class. Once the car leaves the HPOF class, the car gets judged by the judging team who is judging the class that the car belongs in. If the HPOF car gets the points needed for a 1st Junior, the car gets the award regardless of the point spread. The 10 point spread for awards still applies to the restored cars.

As you know yourself, the HPOF class is too big, it is hard on the judges and it really isn't fair to the car owners either. Once a cars get an HPOF certification, it would take some of the load off of the judges by spreading the cars out among the classes that the car actually belongs in. The owner of the HPOF certified car would always have the option of Judge, Do Not Judge, or could always go into the Driver Participation Class.

As a judge yourself, I'm almost certain that you have seen some HPOF cars that are as nice or nicer than the Preservation Cars, and they're not sticking the Preservation Cars to the back and mixing them all in. I'm sure if you talk to any owner of a car that's ever won a Senior Award, and told them that you were going to park them in a group with all the other cars going for a Preservation Award, and not with the class that they belong in, you'd never see those Preservation cars come back.

Think about this.... If an original car has scored enough points to earn a Senior, doesn't it deserve to collect Preservation Awards like the restored senior cars do?? There are a lot of original cars out there that are good enough for a Senior, but can't get there because they're going against a restored car and the 10-point spread kills them, yet the car is nice enough where it doesn't warrant the restoration.

[1937hd45]

Pat, Sorry, you're making this way too complicated. I'd like to see HPOF certified vehicles displayed in their proper class after they earn their oval. I don't want to see them competing with restored cars, apples and oranges.

[K8096]

I was told by an AACA judge that they frowned on doing this. I was told I would be "short circuiting" the system.

[ex98thdrill]

Yeah it's just a suggestion either way. My thoughts are if an HPOF car can score enough to win awards, they should be able to win the awards without being bitten by the 10 point difference. A score of 365 is a 365 whether the car has been restored or not.

A lot of those HPOF cars are as nice or nicer than the Preservation Awards cars, but because of the current 10 point spread rule, they can't get there.

David is right when he talks about it being a pain in the butt for judges to have to search through the field to find and judge the HPOF cars. From his viewpoint, that wouldn't be practical, and I agree with him.

Is it right to throw all of these HPOF cars into one big group away from cars the same vintage?? I don't think so. A Corvette should be with Corvettes, Mustangs should be with Mustangs, Model 'T's should be with Model 'T's and so on.

At this point, it is only a thought. I don't have any intention of putting a car in HPOF, and of course we're not the ones who make the rules, but I have felt for quite some time that HPOF certified cars should not be separated like red-headed step children.

In the case of Matt's SC/Rambler, the car is original, it doesn't warrant a restoration, and as long as he can get the points, he should be able to win a senior without worrying about the 10 points from a restored car. The car has proven to be worthy enough of a 1st Junior, and in his case he shouldn't be punished for having an unrestored car. But if or when Matt wants to go for a Senior, his fate shouldn't be based on the point difference of a restored car that shows up in his class.

[Stan W.]

My car is in the DPC and from the rules I have it says that once a DPC or HPOF car is entered in a regular judging class any badges or awards must be surrendered to the national office.If this is true there could never be a DPC or HPOF going for a junior award. I guess they want to discourage people from restoring the car once it has been certified DPC or HPOF. Probably a good way to keep some of the cars original.

[novaman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I guess they want to discourage people from restoring the car once it has been certified DPC or HPOF. Probably a good way to keep some of the cars original. </div></div>

Stan you have the general idea there.

HPOF

The idea is to keep those from getting the HPOF then going out, restoring it, then showing it for awards. As an owner you need to decide wether you are going to show it (judged) or keep it original-unrestored. If you have a car that is original and capable of winning its 1st jr and so forth, you can show it in its class and get it. This class was created with the idea of it basically being a "library resource" on wheels. A class for the cars that will most likely never see a 1st jr without being restored. If you have a car that you know will never win a 1st jr, would you bother to being it to a meet? I know my '63 Chevy II 4dr would never be to a national meet without this class. I'll photo the car over the weekend and put them on my website and put a link here to it. You'll why a say that.

DPC

The class was designed for the cars that again most likely won't get a 1st Jr. and don't qualify for HPOF. These cars may be restored or partly restored, most likely they have things wrong like radial tires, add-on A/C, and things like that. These cars are the ones that would most likely be used on tours, and driven more than you would a show car. There is nothing here to really discourage you from restoring the car if you want.

As for the <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> from the rules I have it says that once a DPC or HPOF car is entered in a regular judging class any badges or awards must be surrendered to the national office. </div></div>

The main idea especially for the DPC is to keep people from bouncing a car back and forth between the judged class and the display class.

[JB-ed]

McGrew said, "Those who really get into old cars do it for the memories and nostalgia of the times..."

This today is a FALSE assumption that fuels many of the conflicts in the old-car hobby. Personally I live in an 180-year-old house with 150-80 year-old furniture, 100 year-old music boxes, talkling machines and records, and 80-90 year old cars, a 60 year old tractor, and I have no childhood memories of or nostalgia for any of these things because I am too young. I collect all this stuff because I love antiques. Mechanical antiques especially. It's certainly true that many who are now "old-timers" in the hobby got into this many years ago for nostalgia reasons, much as many baby boomers are here now with their 60s cars. However, what about the younger people with pre-war cars? Simple math says that TODAY the median age of collectors of pre-war cars would be unable to remember them from childhood and therefore must be collecting for another reason. We have to stop with this "nostalgia" stuff for pre-war cars or this certainly will discourage young participation in the pre-war hobby

[6219_Rules]

I stand corrected. I hope the hobby is around for a long, long time. Personally, it is not worth arguing about. If you hate modified cars...then don't include them.

Fight the trend.

Boycott those clubs that do but send letters, or better yet, signed petitions to the leadership.

Vote out those in the leadership who made the change. Most never vote according to club stats. If you don't vote, you have no right to [@!#!$].

Write op-eds to the magazines like Self-Starter to get the point across.

Create a movement to stop the inclusion of modified cars from leaking into the hobby. Besides, as has been pointed out, there are plenty of clubs centered on them anyway.

I love cars. I love original cars and non-mods. I can appreciate a modified car, but it makes me sad to think one more example is lost. That Caballero PeterG posted is a perfect example of a beautiful car being modified rather than properly restored, probably at as much cost.

But I will plead guilty to trying to be open minded, to accepting something other than what I like, or agree with. Obviously that is not the trend. Probably never has been.

If I ever get enough gelt to restore my '56 to original perfection, that is the only way she will be done.

And JB-ed, you probably know far more than I do on current trends in pre-war collecters, however, I can only speak for myself. I collect cars that give me that feeling, that reconnect me to the past and the times that were good for me. Nostalgia <span style="font-style: italic">is</span> a factor for me.

So, I stand corrected in my generalization. I should have said that nostalgia is one of the more powerful motives in collecting for me.

Tommy1927, you are right. Quit those clubs, send those letters....

[Guest]

I am voting with my wallet, like all the other pre-war cars in the BCA and CLC.

It's that empty lot, at the nationals. It's plain as day, except for the board members. Been trending that way for years.

[Twitch]

I still believe in the original essense of what "classic" or "antique" is defined as by probably the Pebble Beach crowd. If some other national organization defines them as anything that is over 25 years old then fine. That doesn't mean that I have to accept the fact or be excited at the prospect of viewing common, plain Jane mass production cars with enthusiasm at any venue event.

In my mind classics are pre-war examples of low production, high quality, with technical inovation or unique styling. My 1950 Packard is no more a classic in that sense than is a 67 Buick Skylark. My restored 73 Z-28 which I bought new doesn't feel classic or old even though it is one of 11,000.

My perceptions of classics/antiques will not change simply because an auto organization presents its definitions. Part of it is relative perspective too I guess. A 25 year old today sees a '79 Firebird as old and may even call it a classic. Come on! But that's the way it will continue as we all die off. Just because a motor vehicle has survived 25 years doesn't automatically make it anything other than an old car or truck. All organizations need new members with new money and they will ultimately take over and dictate how things will be.

Is the first Lamborghini, the 1967 GT-350 a classic/antique/exotic/unique compared to that 67 Skylark? Is the either restored or original 1934 Lincoln equal to the 1978 Lincoln Town Car? Whatever any club says you all know the answer.