Is anyone actually buying project cars anymore?

[Pontiac59]

I can find tons of good project cars, have a few for sale myself, my friend has something like 250 cars any of which you could pick up.. and can't move anything whatsoever, from plain jane '60's Falcons to hard to find Chevy Sedan Deliveries (51, 52, 54), to various Studebakers, Packards, a '59 Plymouth convertible and other Mopars. The '55-57 Chevys aren't even moving. 2 doors, 4 doors, wagons, convertibles. No one's jumping on anything. Are we supposed to just give them away? $500 is pretty cheap for a sedan delivery that has an easy $1000 in parts on it if you cut it up, it's rusty sure but not like it's missing the trim, back door or anything. I can sell all the parts I want but not much else. Couldn't even get $200 on a '40 Plymouth 4dr that I am sure the fenders, grille and dash were worth at least that on. Anyone have any thoughts why that is? It's pretty frustrating. If I have to give it away, heck I can load it up with scrap metal and take it in and at least get $100 to have it crushed... and I am seeing less and less reason not to just do that, or let the other cars I find get scrapped, and to heck with them. Are people just too lazy to take on a project, too cheap, or do they expect a freebie because you can't detail it and do a tune up and brake job and take it to the car show right away? I don't get it. I don't have time to take off all these parts and crate them up and ship them to people - I list one or two things on eBay at a time and nothing else until they're out the door just so I can keep up with it.

[The Old Guy]

I honestly believe that in todays world, it is much more cost effective to buy a car already done. By the time you buy the materials to finish a car, if you do all the work , you will make five cents an hour.Unless you need something to fill your time, this is not something most people want to do.

[Guest imported_jmarsicano]

I bought one last year. A 55 Ford pickup. And your right, I could have bought one with the motor done and body work finished. But then I dont get to spend that quality time in the shop. For my generation its more "in" to have an old car not to work on one.

The truck we bought had zero rust and the price was right, she will look good towing down the highway with the little racer hooked up! We will be starting the truck project this winter! You wouldnt happen to have any old race parts in that pile would you?

[ex98thdrill]

You're right. A lot of time if costs more to restore a car than what it's worth. If you don't have the tools and the facilities to restore your car, it almost isn't worth hiring it done. Of course if money is no object, that is one thing, but in many cases, the average working man can't swing the money to hire someone to do a class A restoration.

[Dave@Moon]

<span style="font-style: italic">"If you're making money at this, you're not doing it right!"</span>

--Jay Leno

[ex98thdrill]

Dave, we haven't sold one car yet that we've restored. But when the money gets spent you need to know how to justify it. If you spend $30,000 for a car that is only going to be worth $10,000 to $15,000 you might want to think twice about it. There is an individual near me that spent in excess of $85,000 to restore a late 50's vintage Packard that I wouldn't give you $20,000 for. Yes it's a 400 point car, and the car has taken several awards, but there comes a point where you cross the line of common sense and enter into stupidity, and making money has nothing to do with it.

[1937hd45]

I like to think I've gotten wizer with age, and know I'll never finish the projects I have now, BUT, I still look at future money pits. Location is as important as condition, a rust free project in South Dakota gets costly if you ship it to either coast. Most cars that have been outside for 50+ years are only good for parts. If the parts aren't worth the price of the whole car than most people will pass on the car and buy the one or two parts they need.

[1937hd45]

Location on the site is another thing to consider. If the car is on the side of a cliff with three missing wheels and frozen wheel cylinders,getting it out and on a rollback is another cost the buyer has to add into the mix.

[Pierce66]

I think you are right - we dont see young people in any great numbers, doing today what our generations did - get a kick out of fixing something up. We've all heard the reasons "instant gratification"...and other excuses - my own prejudice is younger people today just havnt got the "guts" we did. Nor the technical skills. Wish I had an intelligent contribution on this - all I have is fear...fear for the future, as fewer and fewer American kids have a CLUE how to hold a screw-driver, or even CARE that they dont. Perhaps lack of pride and self-respect as to "feeling of accomplishment" is a factor - another of my prejudices is that so many young people are not embarssed about "phony things". Many of you have seen those TV shows about "CLASSIC RESTORATION", only to find they are talking about taking a 1950's era Chevrolet's sheet metal, and mounting it on modern components. And they get so angry when you try and give em a little real automotive history. As if it were part of their religion to be proud of their ignorance. Heck...I even had a guy get mad at me when I explained "Route 66" was just a silly song from the 1940's...that 'caught on'...that the REAL name was U.S. Highway 66..."routes" were the "State Sign Routes" or state highways.

Wish I knew what all this means. Hopefully, we still have enough legit. car buffs around who will try and exchange ideas, and TRY to educate people as to REAL automotive history. HOW do we "reach" young people and get them interested in automotive history, and how it evolved, so that the younger generation WILL be interested in "project cars" and save a few ? Beats me.

A puzzled WOOF from Dog Spot

[Shawn Miller]

I am, but the problem I find is that most sellers want way too much for project cars. Ebay hasnt helped as people seem to pay way too much for cars that need work on there. Ebay is a great place to sell a car. Try that.

Shawn Miller

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ...but there comes a point where you cross the line of common sense and enter into stupidity, and making money has nothing to do with it. </div></div>

Might that be when you can't afford it any more or when it stops being fun?

When money comes up the important things in life are forgotten.

[1937hd45]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> HOW do we "reach" young people and get them interested in automotive history, and how it evolved, so that the younger generation WILL be interested in "project cars" and save a few ? Beats me.

A puzzled WOOF from Dog Spot </div></div>

Put the words to some "Rap music" and blast it into their cell phone!

[Guest imported_DaveZZZ]

Ok, that?s it. I have to chime in.

I have been reading the posts on younger folks getting involved, and I guess that I am among the younger ones. I am 31.

I finally got my project car- a car that many here would only consider a used car, as it is a sprightly 37 years old, two years ago. But I had been planning it since I was around 17, which is when I discovered how much fun it was to work on my old clunkers (daily drivers, all $100 cars).

What I think most of you don?t understand is how hard it is for a 20 ? 30 year old to afford this hobby. You need facilities, as in a garage. Around here, virtually any house is going to cost you upwards of $250,000 and that is unlikely to get you one with a good garage. Most folks under 30 haven?t yet got the house, and it would be, frankly, foolish to put the old car ahead of the house.

Once you?ve recovered the budget from buying the house and furnishing it (that takes a few years), you?ve got kids on the way, school loans to finish out, and then you might be 35 and able to start thinking about the car. And let?s not forget that I am probably several thousand dollars into a very modest tool collection.

To be blunt, I am fortunate to have found a good career, and I am probably 10 years ahead of most of my friends & peers on the earnings curve, and I still can?t afford to spend as I would like on my car.

I know a fair number of folks on up into their 40?s who talk about getting something, but for whom it just isn?t (and shouldn?t be) a priority over other things like the house and family.

This stuff is EXPENSIVE.

And I know lots of guys in the 20 ? 30 age group who either can fix their cars, or have a genuine desire to learn. If you never had guidance on this, it is pretty intimidating to tear into your daily driver with no help- you depend on that car.

Maybe you guys shouldn?t complain about the ignorance of these kids today, and instead offer them a little help. I have taken more than a few friends through how to do things like a brake job on their daily driver, and some have been inspired to move forward with that and learn more. Teach you neighbor a thing or two, have him bring the car over and show him how it?s done, and a certain portion will catch the bug.

-Dave

[Restorer32]

Actually the line between common sense and stupidity is crossed when you pay 40 thou or so for a NEW vehicle and watch it depreciate to 10 thou or so over a five year period. Old cars are a hobby, nothing more. You don't expect to make money on golf do you? Or cruising to the Caribbean? Boating? Seems to me old cars are one of the few hobbies where you can even hope to recoup some of what you spend. And people must in fact still be buying "project cars" 'cause I have a shop full of them. But you are correct, and I advise everyone of my potential customers of this fact, in most instances you can buy a restored car for a lot less money than it would take to restore the same vehicle.

[Guest]

You never pay too much for an antique car you only buy it too soon.

[Guest]

When is an antique car an investment?????

When you drag home another project car and your wife looks at it and asks, "What did you buy that thing for?"

And you look her right in the eye and say without hesitation, "But honey, it's an investment."

If old cars are your hobby, they should NEVER be looked upon as an investment. They are more realistically a damnable expense. But then so are booze, chasing women, gambling and other diversions.

If your wife raises objections to your wasting time on old cars, point out that it is easier to locate you in the garage under a car than in a bar or other place of diversion men are wont to frequent.

hvs

[R W Burgess]

Is someone talking about me? I'm the lazy one, that doesn't have time to restore an old car. I work hard at what I do best to enable me to buy the best vehicle I can afford. I try to buy antiques that I can drive right now, so I don't lose interest in the car while trying to get it in a condition that I'd even consider safe to drive on the highways, in my case, that don't take much. Now a close older friend of mine has been during this restoration thing for a long time. He started in Chevy's('55-57), then into Corvettes and now back to Chevy's, even including off the wall 2 dr sedan(cheapo's)Chevy's that he KNOWS he can make money on. His 2 '57 Vettes brought BIG money. He even sold a "37-39" Plymouth sedan that he made money on. His philosophy.. only buy what someone else would want, if you intent to make money at it. Ask our President Earl Beauchamp about this fellow. Earl will vouch for this fellow's story. I guess my '65 Corvette fits this mold too. I've had it 8 years and I'm pretty sure I can clear $20,000 on the sale of it today. You gotta buy what's popular. Wayne

[6219_Rules]

Pontiac59, I will hazard a guess that you are seeing the effect of a poor economic recovery, and family households that simply do not have the time, interest or desire to rebuild an old car.

Teens used to do this, as many noted, and they grew up to make the majority of the hobbiests today. But the cruel fact is that this hobby is terribly expensive and out of step with many people who are concerned with keeping hearth, family and self alive, well fed and progressive.

In my family, I am, as my late uncle certainly was, seen as a 'car nut'. We spend valuable time and money on something that, admittedly, brings us great joy, but is extremely questionable as an investment. My father tolerates this hobby such as I am involved only because it DOES bring me joy, otherwise it is wasteful of monies needed to keep me alive and well.

I wish I knew more to be able to advise you in this matter. I would hate to see good project cars go the way of the Do Do but unless you can make a go of part supply and doing what men like Cherlokian, Faust, and Cooper have been doing supplying parts to silly people like me, then I do not see what else you can do. If you got $100 for each hulk, minus towing or hauling charges, then you might be able to make some money. The last time I had to do that and lost a beautiful car, it profitted me less than $400 and that was applied to a rather sizable bill.

Today most of us look for a running, well kept car as a project. My '47 would be a wonderful project car for an enthusiast wanting to restore it to original. It runs, is well kept, clean and most everything works. What could I get for it? Certainly not what I put into it. I would want at least $8500 to break even and finance my other project. But I doubt I would get it. I cannot see a rusty hull even complete being worth anything near a running, decent car. Perhaps the market is dead...I don't know. I do know there are deals out there for a pitence that work and look good. My '77 Eldorado at $1950 is an example, or the 1969 Olds 98 Holiday coupe, all original and in perfect running shape, for $2500. Or this 1956 Cadillac I recently acquired at $1500 which has turned out to be a real gem.

Times are changing. It is sad to see beautiful examples crushed. The future is not forgiving to the past, that much is certain.

[Pontiac59]

Can't sell a $300 car for $100 and stay in 'buisness' long.. but I should be able to sell a $300 convertible for 4 or 5 times that - did it with a '61 Dodge that's on the verge of breaking in half, last fall - and go back and buy 3 or 4 more cars to sell. I've had them all over eBay - doesn't matter again how they're priced. Giveaway cars either get no bids, get deadbeats, or get people who think a bid is an option to come look at a car and turn it down as "too rough" when it said in that particular case 'bad frame - parts only' right in the auction. There still was more than enough salable parts to break even on it. I even had one car, I didn't know the frame was shot on.. had it sold 3 times on ebay and no one did buy it, the one turkey used Buy it Now, he lives like half an hour away from it, comes and looks at it and says he doesn't want it because the frame is bad. I said fine, pay the listing fee and we'll forget about it, because you could have easily come looked at it before you bid on it. Ended up with bad feedback (neutral) over a car that's not even mine when I could have gone the non-paying bidder route on the guy. Gee thanks.

Thing is I'm not out to make a fortune here. But I'm not in the charity business, and I shouldn't have to give stuff away. I see stuff get scrapped and figure that the rest of them left are now worth a little more and maybe people will pay attention to the next one. All I want to do is be able to sell the cars I pick up for enough money I can pay a few bills and go back and save a couple more cars. This one place starts out with a couple Model A's and goes up into the 80's - some of the cars are parts cars to be sure, but there are plenty of decent restorable cars. There's even still Mopars with 392 Hemi's in them up there. But if I can't sell something for $600, $1000, $1500, depending on what it is and what the parts are worth, there is just no point in me getting it out of there.

I don't even care if people build street rods out of them - prime example, American Rodder magazine has been doing a series where they put a 392, Chevy 700R4, aftermarket suspension (a jag-style IRS in back) and so forth in an old car. Why? The mint perfect '27 Chrysler phaeton goes from being worth maybe $12000 to over twice that for the $4000, $5000 they spent upgrading it. Most of these cars are common enough or low enough in value that there's no reason why you shouldn't just have fun with them. Doesn't take much to make a "rod" - fancy paint, or a motor swap. Not like you have to cut it up and butcher it -

Just a few examples of stuff that's going to get pressed if no one steps up - I only listed the cars that are savable, or someone should want for parts (noted as parts cars)

'37 Buick parts cars (2) - 40 Roadmaster coupe, complete except grille - 40 Pontiac 6cyl coupe - 40 Studebaker 4dr - 46 Mercury coupe - 50 Stude bullet nose starlight coupe - 50 Ford woodie wagon, may be parts only - 51 Ford 2dr ht Victoria, looks savable - 52 Stude 2dr hardtop - 53 and 54 Chevy 2dr hardtops, one you can see all the floors still in it - 52/53 Cad 2dr ht - 55 Stude 2dr hardtop - 55 Packard Clipper (4 parts cars, one more solid enough to save) - 3 different Henry J's (parts or drag car bodies) - '53? Willys Aero coupe (parts, but the only one I have ever seen) - 57 Plymouth Belvedere 2dr ht (going to buy this one) - 57 Cadillac 4dr ht (2) - 58 Chrysler Windsor 2dr ht - 58 Chrysler Saratoga 2dr ht - 58 Cadillac 2dr ht, needs paint - 58 Chevy convertible (parts only) - 59 Olds Super 88 Convertible (may be parts only) - 59 Thunderbird convertble - 59, 60, 2x61 and 2x62 Plymouth convertibles all with all the unique parts on them - 60 Olds wagon - 60 Dodge wagon - 61 Chevy, Pontiac, Buick and Ford convertibles (probably all parts cars) - 2 '61 or so Studebaker Champ pickups, one looks like you could put a battery on it and gas in it and drive it out of there. Not to mention the '65 Pontiac convert I found that may be a GTO (from what I learned, I have to check the quarters for stamped GTO badge holes).

And those are the cars I've found other places, not even the ones my friend has up to his place - his start at '28 or so and go from there. But most of those I've talked around and can't get any interest in. Some of them are supposed to be worth $30,000 in mint condition. Others are popular with the rodding crowd. But they sit there waiting for the crusher, and I don't have the $10,000 it would cost to buy all of them individually - I suppose I'd get a better deal to buy all the ones in the one place, at once, but still it's a lot of money.

[rgshafto]

Nice post Dave. Older people have been criticizing the "younger generation" since the beginning of time. The fact is, young Americans have a much harder time establishing themselves ((i.e. - making a good living) than those of us middle aged and older ever did. It is a much more competitive world, one that demands much higher levels of knowledge and skill, and which provides very little opportunity for perfectly intelligent people who may be good with their hands but not wild about sitting in a classroom or working at a desk. I bought my first house for $21,000 (1972), my first new car for $3,000 (1970). Even adjusted for inflation, these things are far more expensive now, especially houses. I watch my early 30s sons trying to make a life for themselves and I know they have a much harder time than I did. One result: they've got a lot less money for hobbies than previous generations.

[A. Woolf]

It seems nowadays that many people in the car hobby can't see the forest for the trees. The projects y'all are referring to such as a 56 Chevy would be a big project if you had a nice solid complete original car to start with. Just doing the plating would cost a ton of money. Most typical 40s, 50s, and 60s cars would be a daunting restoration task for a novice. I think where we miss the boat is not encouraging entry into the hobby with cars such as Model A and Model T Fords. Good running cars are still available and you can find them for much less than 20k if you do your homework. I would be willing to bet if asked some of the old time car hobbyists who started in the 50s and early 60s they probably started out with a T or an A. Those cars are the roots of the hobby and they are still a good entry point for a young person without a lot of money.

The advantage to these types of cars is they are simple to work on and parts are available and not so expensive. Someone with average mechanical skills can work on one. Someone who is a novice mechanic can learn a lot from just tinkering with these very basic cars. Information about the cars is much more readily available due to the internet and the forums that are provided by various Model A and T groups. Answers to simple and complex questions are often available at the click of a mouse. And the skills learned from working on a T or A can be used to work on any kind of future project.

And in case you think a Model T can not be driven I bought a nice 1913 Model T touring last year on Ebay and did a full mechanical rebuild on it and I still have quite a bit less than 20k in it. I just took it on its first tour last week and put 475 miles almost trouble free miles on it. The only problems were tire related. We cruised all week at 35-45 mph and had a ball. And just for reference I live just outside of Atlanta, GA so traffic here is not a picnic. We don't drive our old cars on the interstates but most of the time we manage to find usable routes for the cars.

Too much of the car hobby today is concerned with matching numbers and matching dollars. The best fun I have found with owning an old car is getting it out on the road and watching the smiles as I drive by!

Alan

[Pontiac59]

I think you can build a '50's car for a lot less. I see running Model A's selling for $5000 for a stocker, but I bought a '60 Pontiac for $2000 that only needed a regulator and the paint cleaned up. I drove the wheels off it..but it was a 4-door sedan. A car like a '56 Chevy, though, all of the chrome parts are available someplace, original or reproduction. You might spend $1300 for rechrome bumpers, or have yours done for less, or get someone's less than perfect but presentable bumpers and sell yours for cores. And you have a chance of finding one in a junkyard with useable parts on it... so far I haven't come up with much of anything Model A wise, they're either doodlebugs or they're rusted hulks -

[1937hd45]

One feature about restoring Model T Fords is the ability to hide one that has been disassembled. You can knock one apart and restore all the components then assemble the rebuilt chassis and attach the body and fenders. There is no market for T projects either I found out. There was a time when a sandblasted and primed 1915 running gear would be picked up by a speedster or depot hack builder. I really think the new car market has taken away a lot of future hobbiests. If I had the money sitting on the table I'd buy a Hemi Chrysler station wagon and not another "collector" car.

[1924rollin]

Lets keep everything going ,teach yor kids

[Pontiac59]

Model A's are the same way. I could put together a speedster on an original frame with a steel cowl, particularly if I run something like a Chevy S10 4 cyl, trans and rear in it, and be driving it for maybe $1500. For a little more, I could put a coupe body on it and a 305 Chevy V8 in it. Won't be a show car, but it will go down the road.

[ex98thdrill]

Well Dave, with most of your postings that you've made, it's quite obvious that you not only crossed the line, it is so far behind you that you'll probably never see it again.

[ex98thdrill]

You're right Howard, a car is never an investment, and it takes a lot of money. My father and I have restored three cars in the last four years and we're already working on number four. We're not in it for the money, but $85,000+ for a 50's vintage Packard is excessive. If the car was an older Packard with a lot of money in chrome and was a rare piece that would be one thing. In this case we're not talking about a rare piece, and it is an issue of someone having more money than brains. The combined total of the last three cars that we've done has been $45,000. Right now with project #4 we're at about $4,000 and I think it's going to run us another $6,000 to $7,000 to finish it.

[ksparks]

i have had different cars and project cars over the years of late teen and early twenty makes. mostly orphan makes. for me it is a matter of loving to have projects in the garage, trying to save a project from the junkyard etc.

[A. Woolf]

If I was a teenager and listened to most of the posts on this forum I would be discouraged from looking from looking for an old car myself. These types of negative attitudes are the big reason I am no longer active with the local AACA chapter that I still belong to. I run into too many people who think it is foolish to restore or drive the oldest cars. What is worse is that they spend too much time pointing out the negatives and not encouraging the younger generation to follow their dreams and get involved.

On the tour that I drove my 13 T on last week I had a 17 year old young man as my passenger one day. He is already into the old car hobby and owns a 67 Plymouth. He also works in dads shop where they restore Jaguars. His dad owns a couple of nice brass cars. This young man told me of his desire to own a Model T. He doesn't have a lot of money but neither did most of us at 17. I am sure with his enthusiasm he will find what he wants. I know another young guy who is 30 years old and he has already owned a 12 T and a nice teens Locomobile and is now working on a serious pre-10 brass car project. And I know another 20 something fellow who is searching vigoriously for his first brass car. These guys inspire me with their enthusiasm and their true interest in the hobby. They are interested in the cars and getting them out in public and having some fun.

There are plenty of young future hobbyists out there. But they need encouragement not negative attitudes.

ASW

[Guest Skyking]

After I restored my 66 Skylark, I didn't think I would want to do another car. Then along came this Metropolitan that I wanted, so here we go again....While I was tearing this car apart for a full resto I stated to my son how crazy I was to do all this work when I could have probably gone on ebay and buy one complete. His response was, "Dad, you won't be happy with one you buy all finished. Things on it will not be the way you want them to be". He's right. I wouldn't be happy or satisfied. After the final cost (not counting my labor), I'm far ahead of what it would have cost me for some car that probably would have needed some work. But on the same token, when I sold my Skylark, I made good money because I did all the work myself and the guy who bought it got a deal because he wanted a turn key car.......

[61-63]

Pontiac 59 you need to hang onto those cars. They will sell. DaveZZZ hit the nail on the head as to why the younger generation is not heavy into restoring cars. I retired four years ago and until then I was like DaveZZZ, and additionally got transferred every four or five years. Impossible to restore cars under those conditions. But now I'm almost finished building a shop, I've collected no less than four project cars (got carried away yes I did), and am about to start on the first car. If you read anything about population trends you'll know that the baby boom generation is just starting to retire. Million and millions of guys, many wanting to have that special car they wanted when they were young but couldn't have, are about to head your way.

[Pontiac59]

Maybe they'll sell, heck there is no reason they shouldn't sell, the problem comes in that I need to eat, and I'm not having much success finding steady work to pay for that. Not to mention the other bills. Where most of these cars are, you can't do much from November to nearly April because of the snow - best thing you can do is line up about half a dozen so they can be plowed out and forget the rest.

Now if I could just sell two or three cars, I could coast a while, go get some cars that are in better shape from still another place, and probably let the whole thing roll down hill like a snowball for a few months.

I think some of the blame is simply that while the economy's not too bad, for whatever reason people are still thinking in that recession state of mind where they don't spend much on extras. It's like people haven't figured out yet that things are better than they were a few years ago.. I don't get it and I don't want to turn this into a political debate either, it's just how things seem, if that makes any sense. I sell at car shows and hobby shows and my sales this year have been 1/2 to maybe 3/5 of what I did last year at the same shows. If I didn't bring model cars and toys to the car shows, it wouldn't pay to even go to most of them.

Of course, the state can't be bothered to pass a budget on time either, I want to write a nice letter to the editor asking why the heck I should bother to pay my state taxes on time or even bother at all when they can't do the job those taxes are paying them to do. I should just write in big letters on the tax forms 'sorry, but I haven't passed my personal budget plan for this year yet' and let them deal with that. So it may be a more local issue to this state, although it doesn't explain why I'm not getting car people from neighboring states in after stuff.

Anyways, a good portion of that list I mentioned will be flat in the next 6-12 months if I don't get my hands on them somehow. Anyone hedging on looking into a car might want to think about that... Usually I try to price so even if you spend $500 hauling it, in a pinch you can at least break even on your expenses parting it out.