Modified Buicks

[Guest sintid58]

I just saw my newest Bugle today and read the letter from Robert Snowden about modified Buicks. I think we should definately have a class for modified cars at our meets but one requirement must be that the heart and soul of the car is truly a Buick. In other words no car should be on the field at a Buick show without a true Buick Motor. This means no LT-1 Chevrolet motors with Buick nameplates. There are more than enough 455 and other Buick motors out there that anyone who truly likes the brand can find and put one in their modified car. Any one who does less is just using the body because they like the style and are not really interested in Buicks as a whole car. I was offended at the nationals this year while looking at a beautiful hot rod, I commented to my wife that it was too bad they hadn't kept the car all Buick. Another person looking at the car said, oh but it was a Buick engine they just didn't have the name plates for it so it still said Chevrolet or Corvette on it. A small block Chevy engine, whether from a newer Roadmaster or from a 62 Belair is still a Chevy motor and I don't want it on the field in competition at a Buick show. This is not to say the car wasn't beautiful but DO NOT represent it to me as a Buick with a Buick motor. I can understand using suspension, rear end and other components as they aren't really the heart and soul of a car but the motor should remain true to the marque. If I want to see modified Chevys all I have to do is turn on the TV and every channel that has shows about modified cars or hot rods has one chevy after another. My hope is that someday I have enough money to build a hot rod just for spite. A modified Chevy with a Buick 455 in it.

[Buicksplus]

Friends:

Personally I consider modifying and rodding cars a much different hobby than my interest in restoration and preservation of old cars. But as a member of many collector car clubs, the main reason I join is to meet and enjoy other car nuts, and I have met friends who enjoy and are actively involved in rodding. Our hobby is already partitioned, those who like brass or nickel cars usually don't have much interest in 50's or 60's cars. Yet we get along and have fun at meets and events together. And we respect each other's work.

I think restricting the modifications to cars with Buick engines is simply not going to work. That practice would exclude about 99% of the rods out there. If that's what you want to do, then you may as well keep all the rods out. I can't really understand welcoming a car with a Buick engine while accepting all the other other components from who knows where.

Overall, my preference would be to not allow any rods, but if BCA is going to make a class for them, I think it would be sufficient to say that the body must be representative of some sort of Buick.

Welcome to the slippery slope,

Bill

Albuquerque, NM

[rivijimi7178]

Hello I'm new to this Forum but I have to say that I'm all for a Modified Class.I would be sad if I couldnt show off my 71 RIVIERA which I was able to save by combining pieces-n-parts from 71,72, & 73 Rivs. More less this car is becoming a street rod. Lowering, stiffining, HEI'ing a (70) BUICK 455! This modified RIV will turn heads and scream BUICK. Plus it looks great next to my (trying to keep original) ELECTRA 225 of 68 vintage.As long as were not cross breeding ie;BUICK w/a Ford engine keep it G.M. at shows.

[brad54]

If it's modified, it's modified--it shouldn't matter what's been done to it to put it in the modified category.

Personally, I love to see a Buick engine in a Buick. And a Ford in a Ford, and a Mopar in a Mopar for that matter. But the reality is that the Small Block Chevy is the street rod engine of choice.

Seeing a SBC in something takes the shine off that car for me, but that's just me. Would I want to see a 454 in a '72 Centurion? Absolutely not. But if the car is modified, it's modified.

What about the "period correct" '32 Ford or '56 Ford F-100 truck with an incredibly detailed 401 in it? How about Tommy Ivo's drag cars? They were Fords! But he ran the Nailhead. (I'm talking about his 22jr cars and his Fad T) I'd hate to hear one of those cars was turned away, or a clone of it. And I don't know what Bachlowski's Ol' Yaller cars started out (please excuse spelling!), but I know they weren't Buicks! What about a clone of those?

How about the '54 I'm going to build--322, backed by a Ford T-85 o.d. trans and Mopar 8 3/4 rear. Has the Buick heart, but maybe not the soul. What about the new adapters out there that put a late-model overdrive trans behind a Nailhead--not a Buick trans.

What about a Ford 9-inch under a Regal?

Welcome them all in--Buick in a Buick, Buick in a Ford, Chevy in a Buick--and just walk past the ones that you don't like. I think the main thing is this: If someone wants to be included at a show, we shouldn't tell them "No." They want to be a part of our Buick clique, and we should let them, rather than alienate them.

Heck, what if I got really silly and dropped a 401 in my '57 Chevy gasser station wagon? You don't think that would draw a crowd and give a lot of people some serious grins and giggles?

Besides, there aren't going to be too many that stray from the flock anway--one or two a show?

That's my .02

-Brad

[86 2dr.ltd]

Hi, Im not a show car person but I have a thought on this. I didnt really get the impression Sintid was talking about just Hot Rods. Hot Rod guys have more than enough shows to show their craft. It is also a much more profitable and "glorious" aspect of the old auto industry. I dont see why you would want these Hot Rods at your classic Buick events.

If what is being considered is a class for Buick people to get their Buick cars that have been donated parts from other Buick cars to get looked at and taken seriously for their effort, that is a great idea. The last thing that needs to be done is promote the simple minded idea that pulling the Buick engine to do a SBC crate. That would be equal to opening up all the National forests for clear cutting. Next thing you know there all gone , ah duh what happened . An extreme ? I know but you get the idea.

I would interprete modified as modified sheet metal, suspension, paint, wheels engine performance. There are guys like me with my mid 70's B Olds that are saving cars that had no hope at ever meeting the requirements needed, for an original show car yet when I get it done I would like to park it in a show. It cant be judged because its not original, sure passers by could enjoy it but it wont be respected by the originalists because ride height and sheet metal has been altered and it doesnt have factory hubcaps & proper whitewalls, or the engine compartment isnt the correct black. What about a pre 71 engine in a mid 70's for example. In fact havent I seen shows that have that 1973 cut off date? How fare is that ? I give this example because the kind of cars Im talking about are cars that were destined for the J yard and took crazy hours to get solid and make sharp. I believe there should be a class or maybe a few era classes for these modified cars, but if its a BCA show they should be Buicks. If the guy is into outragous 1/4 mile times and built a killer Buick engine and feels he needs the 9" Ford well maybe he does, but if he feels he needs the SBC well maybe he has other shows he can go to.

Its not that complicated really, either you love Buicks or you dont. If you need to put a SBC in a Buick, you dont love Buicks. If hot rodders love their old Buick body they are chopin and modifying and they want to show them as Buicks they can also take the time to build a Buick powerplant. Theres still some out there that havent gone to the scrapers because no one wants to buy them. I've seen many on ebay never get a bid. No need to promote any more scrapin of Buick iron.

[NTX5467]

Brad, I tend to agree that Buicks need to have Buick motors in them, unless they happened to have verifiably come with some other GM produced motor from the factory. Similarly, I also get turned off when I see a nice street rod or street machine with a "non-production, other brand" powerplant. We all know how allegedly easy it is to get parts for Chevrolet motors and how allegedly inexpensive they might be, but when a person takes the extra steps to do something different and maintain the corporate family powerplant orientation, that is a big signal to me that there might be some other neat things in the vehicle too and it's more worthy of further inspection.

In many cases, it might be easier to use the family engine rather than the Chevy V-8. For example, one show I was at had a 1930s Plymouth Coupe. Had a 318 Chrysler motor, TorqueFlite, and an appropriate rear axle. Many of the architectural hard points were so close to what they were for the modern powerplant and trans it was not funny. Made a much easier swap/upgrade than to have done the "Chevy deal". Similar with a '56 Dodge with a 440, '66 Dodge trans, rear axle, and even a factory Dodge Polara station wagon driveshaft. I highly suspect Buicks might be similar in some of these respects, if anyone would just check it out. Maybe not? Of course, the torque tube drive would need some changes . . .

To their credit, the Chevrolet small block family is probably more compact than any other engine family than the small block Fords. Other engines are wider and taller in many respects, but almost every other GM small block V-8 engine is competitive in the weight department and especially the non-Chevy big blocks, but they are physically larger motors.

I know there are several BCA Modified Division operatives that are or have put the basic specs together for participation in the Modified Division class. Some of the best looking customized vehilces on the face of this earth are Buicks and to deny them from a BCA Buick Vehicle Family event just doesn't seem correct to me as they are just as much a part of Buick history as a correctly restored vehicle. Plus, they were probably saved from a rusty death in some field too. Several ways to look at the issue, it seems. I also concur that the automotive hobby is big enough for everybody to find a place they are comfortable, while appreciating the other areas too.

"Period hot rods" would be a different issue, possibly. Back in the early days of hot rodding, when luxury car "mills" were put in anything they could be put into, it was a different situation. I suspect we might not have to deal with that issue at the BCA meets, though, or at least maybe not immediately. But this would be something to consider. At the least, they might be allowed into the Car Corral area. I suspect some orientation on these vehicles might be formulated in the future.

And then there's my "Theory of Tissue Rejection". At some point in time, every Chevrolet motor that's not in a Chevrolet or GM vehicle might do like that Chevy engine in the Pennzoil commercial--break and run. At least that's an interesting thought.

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[Guest wildcat65401]

"If you need to put a SBC in a Buick, you dont love Buicks."

"just walk past the ones that you don't like. I think the main thing is this: If someone wants to be included at a show, we shouldn't tell them "No." They want to be a part of our Buick clique, and we should let them, rather than alienate them."

These were my two favorite comments so far . Really I agree with the simple concept that , if you love the way the Buick body looks , then take the time to rebuild one of the many excellent engines they also offer .

The first car I had was a '65 Wildcat and it was a pleasure to be responsible for getting the orig. 401 rebuilt and painted correctly . And that was nothing compared to the joy of driveing the car then with the fresh stock Buick wildcat 445 motor .Why would you want or need to put anything other then a Buick engine in there , I don't get it , its a Buick ! If you want a Chevy , thats great . Get one .

I love Buicks , to me that is . A Buick body , engine and interior .That seems pretty simple .

Anyway , I'm just a huge fan of the whole car genre , always have been . So whatever way this goes I'll still be thrilled to see almost everything I come across for one reason or another .

Nice to see the whole topic discussed anyway .

See ya .

Paul.

[The Old Guy]

I have a " modified Buick" .It is a 37 coupe with a 455 Buick engine and all the late model accessories: AC- power steering-power brakes- remote keyless entry -AM-FM cassette and CD-Power windows- power brakes- ETC_ETC I have driven it to a few of the BCA national meets,and I have heard comments from both sides. There are many people that accept it for what it is: a comfortable Buick that looks old,and has all the toys. There are also many paople that shake treir heads and say" look how that nice old Buick was ruined. When I purchased the coupe, it had no motor, transmission, or interior. The floor,and the bottom 6 inches of the body looked like lace, and it had the wrong wheels and tires. My wife enjoys going to the meets in it because it is comfortable to ride in. Our 40 Buick is used for meets in the spring and fall. I just purchased a 69 Sportwagon, so I won't disturb the purists, but I still enjoy the 37 most. I personally would like to see all the " modified Buicks" have Buick power, but Chev engine can be built for half the cost of a Buick.The rest of the running gear is not easily seen ,so it does not matter as much, in my opinion.

[pphil]

in a magazine i saw last month they showed photo's of jay leno's buick

(50 somthing model)real nice to look at but it had a 572 crate engine corvette undercarrage etc......

is it still a buick .can it be shown as a buick ??????

scott

[Rawja]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> A small block Chevy engine, whether from a newer Roadmaster or from a 62 Belair is still a Chevy motor and I don't want it on the field in competition at a Buick show. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> If you need to put a SBC in a Buick, you dont love Buicks. </div></div>

Oy vey! Guys, we're talking <span style="font-style: italic">MODIFIED</span> here. What's the point of allowing Modified Buicks and then dictating what you feel is an appropriate or allowable modification?

I don't care what brand engine, suspension, wheels or screws are used to hold it together, if it was originally a Buick or now looks like a Buick it should be allowed. I don't think you'll be dealing with a tidal wave of modified Honda Civics with Buick badges on 'em, but should it happen, let them in. What's the harm?

[brad54]

Yes, I saw that car too! It's an excellent case in point.

And when I saw that car, the first thing I thought was "that's awesome, but I wish it had a 455 in it."

But without adapter plates, you can't readily attach an overdrive trans to the back of a 455.

I also know of a caballaro (sp?) wagon going together with Corvette suspension, and I would assume a Corvette engine and trans. Turn him away?

So, for the record, Jay Leno can't enter a show, nor can Tommy Ivo's cars or Ol' Yaller clones.

In a street rod, a couple HUGE reasons the SBC and even BBC are the engines of choice are because they have short water pumps, rear sump oil pans, and about a million choices for exhaust headers and even cast iron manifolds. And then there are the huge selections for intakes, and aluminum heads.

Ford actually reaserched why SBCs were being put in all the early Ford hot rods, and they now offer a short water pump and rear sump pan. Mopar has a rear sump truck oil pan in their catalog, but doesn't care if enthusiaists know about it or not.

I have a very good friend who built a '39 Pontiac several years ago, complete with small block Poncho engine. He sold the car, and the first thing the new owner did was put in a SBC. Ruined the car for me, but it's still a nice looking car that goes to a lot of shows. And now it has an overdrive trans.

I know another guy with a '38 Buick--he likes 500-inch Caddy engines. They're cheap, and make huge power. Dropped one in the Buick, and has another in his '50 Chevy truck.

Saw a great looking early Cutlass at a show--top notch all the way around. Magazine-worthy, easily. Had a big block Chevy engine in it. I didn't shoot it for my magazine, but if it had an Olds 455, I would have in a heartbeat (no pun intended)

The comment was also made about a Buick interior--what happens when someone builds a full custom leather interior, with late-model dash and bucket seats? Or my Kustom that will have a '58 Impala rear seat, package tray, '59 Impala steering wheel and some early buckets?

Just because I have a kustom doesn't mean I don't love looking at 2x4 Riverias, GS's and GSX's, and Centurions. However, if I'm told I can't drive my car to the show, pull in the gate and display it on the field, I'm not going to go to the show. I won't see the cars, take pictures of them or troll the swap meet. And then what have we, as a group, accomplished?

I really think as far as the shows go, other engines are only going to be in street rods and cars up through the late '50s. For goodness sakes, if some guy wants to spend a ton of money building an incredible '58 Buick with 18-inch wheels, full custom interior, mile-deep paint and a LS1 engine, why would we turn him away from a show?! Yeah, I'd rather see that car with a 425 or 455, but chances are a modern-built car like that is going to have F-Body or Corvette running gear. What about the guy I know in Wisconsin who's building a '32 Ford with a 322 Nailhead--he's got vintage Weiand valve covers, a couple rare intakes to choose from (including an Edmunds 2x2), and a magneto. Why would you not want him at a Buick show?

I seriously doubt we're going to be seeing any Grand Nationals with a 383 stroker Chevy in them, but if a guy wants to drive one in and show it, then send him over to the Modified category. Or is it "Modified, using factory parts only in a non-factory application, with exceptions made for wheels, tires, exhaust and intake"?

Okay, I guess I'm up to about a nickle's worth.

-Brad

[imported_buick5563]

Hi there. I sent in a question recently about the modified vs. driven awards. Due to my understanding I will be showing my 63 Wildcat convertible in the Plano Nationals as a driven car. I bought it off ebay for three grand. It was a #4- car. When it showed up in my driveway my wife almost killed me. I knew what a "project car" was and don't regret buying it, but it was a high school shop project at some point and the kids had attempted to low ride it. They removed all the "Kitty" badges and had put gallons of bondo on a smooshed rear quarter, covered it with an atrocious '70's Dodge van blue paint job, awful upholstery and "misplaced" most of the mechanism for the top. I originally bought it with the theory that I would have a convertible that I could have year round fun in. (For three grand how bad can that be?) Besides, I had no intention of ever showing it. Once I got into it, I realized that all of the embem shaving fun that the class had was gonna annoy me all to be damned. (That and the fact that they had replaced the 8 foot rear quarter trim with drywall screws through the trim.) Two years later I finally got it back together the way I wanted it. I used a Mitsubishi candy red color on the outside and sparkly silver on the seat inserts. I installed the top myself. I got it running great. I did everything in my power using every bit of automotive knowledge that my self taught mechanic (me) could muster, while learning knew techniques along the way. I drive it every chance I get. I entered the car in a custom car show in Austin last month and in a rather large field (post war convertibles) I won first place. I think the guy with the forty thousand dollar Mustang was pretty bummed. My point is that Buicks are unique and people,even non-Buick folks can appreciate that uniqueness. All the guys who put Chevy engines in their cars for "reliability" are cheating themselves when they don't drive them. Who needs reliability pulling their cars off the trailer? However, in another point, I appreciate anyone who does a great job with great workmanship.

I am currently restoring my 55 Special to show at Buick shows in an attempt to remain original and possibly be judged in the 400 point system. This would make me equally as proud as the winning Wildcat but in a different way.

Oh, and I have a leftover 55 nailhead that I will be eventually putting in a Model a Ford coupe as a 50's period hot rod. Then I will be in a three nailhead-powered family in three entirely different cars.Why? Cuz I love Buicks.

Drive em'

Mike Middleton

p.s. Willis, thanks for the kind words on seeing my car in S.A. at the regional.

[BigFella]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> However, if I'm told I can't drive my car to the show, pull in the gate and display it on the field, I'm not going to go to the show. </div></div>

And this is part of the bottom line for me. The more people we can pull into the shows that see our Buicks, the better. The more young people that come out, well even better. Then they know what Buick stands for and when Buick re-energizes itself in the near future they would actually make a trip to the dealership!

Get a rodder to a show and let them see a restored Buick...maybe they will want to do the same and save another Buick for the purists! Maybe they rod one and let the extra parts flow into the purist market! Win Win! And another Buick for kids to see and enforce why Buick is a great brand!

I have always been torn between modifications and stock but as a good friend of mine has put it "You cannot save them all" and "at least it's another Buick on the road". The latter of course drawing attention to Buick! Do modifieds have a place on the show field? Yes! The modifications are already happening! If you think keeping them from the show field will change that or make them feel bad about what they did, well, that is just a bad thought. Once someone purchases a car it is a car they own and can do anything they like to it. We may not agree with it but as long as they are having fun with it and driving a Buick then I say give them some support and let the Buick brand be spread again! The purists won't be judged against the modifieds and vice-versa but it will bring in two automotive crowds and may even make a few more Buick fans!

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Get a rodder to a show and let them see a restored Buick... </div></div>

...and (I hate to say it, but it's true) many will see a profitable piece of raw material to work with.

One of the newest trends these days in rodding is to cross the line into rodding already restored cars. It's becomming commonplace among marques whose financial value isn't in the top tier or two of collector cars, like Buick. I've been mortified recently at a number of shows where cars (especially luxury makes and old independants) were hot rodded from older <span style="font-style: italic">and</span> recent restorations.

It's a simple formula. You buy a $10-15K car. You strip it, and sell the parts you don't want for $2-3K. You spend $5-10K rodding the car as you'd like (remember, this is a mint car you've started with!). The result (if you've got the skills to pull it off): an easily/quickly done $25-35K rod built at a profit. That I can recall offhand I've recently seen 2 Hudsons, a '37 Terraplane, a '32 Pontiac, a '34 Graham, a '34 Lincoln KA, and about a dozen or so pickups that've met this fate.

All one has to do is peruse any number of want ads sections in hot rod publications to see even valuable and rare complete cars being offered up for the hot rod segment of the hobby. For a shocking list from 2 years ago, see this thread from the AACA side about the want ads in the April 2002 <span style="font-style: italic">Hemmings Rod & Performance Magazine</span>. Another thread on the same subject discusses some of the cars I listed above and what purists (like me) should be doing about it.

I have no problem with modifed car in the traditional sense at all. There is, however, a growing sense in the hobby that unless a car is at least fuel injected you can't drive it on the streets. I've seriously had several "knowledgable" people tell me that they didn't believe my 1960 would make the 350 mile drive to Flint last year (no matter that it's perfectly sound mechanically). I think this impression is what's drivng up the values of hot rods, making the rodding of restored antiques financially viable, <span style="font-weight: bold">and</span> why we're seeing a dwindling of interest in authentic restoration hobby. (The fact that we no longer have as viable/interesting a supply of newly 25-year old cars isn't helping either.)

I think that the club should be <span style="font-style: italic">very</span> careful in the administration of any modified category it blesses, lest it begin to tacitly sanction actions most of it's members find objectionable.

[The Old Guy]

The 200-4R is a direct bolt in behind a 455, and they work just fine. I have one in my 72 GS nad it is GREAT!!!

[NTX5467]

Dave, I concur that how the Modified Division is administered regarding the basic parameters of what the miniumu specifications of Buick-related parts of the vehicle is very important. Although this is not the Buick Street Rod Club or an open street rod/street machine club, there can be some overlap with the new Modified Division and those other Buick enthusiast entities.

Unfortunately in the car hobby, we've seen many straight, rust-free cars that were cut up for drag race cars, chopped top customs, or wasted by their owners in other ways. Seems that everyone wants to start with a straight car for whatever they are going to do, even if it's not related to where they desire to end up with the vehicle or if a lesser vehicle (more worthy?) might be around at a more reasonable price. This might explain the use of reasonably priced (for what they are) vehicles at the auctions being bought for "upgrading" and resale activities.

Realize also that we are a few generations past where the general population of younger people know what a carburetor or ignition points & condenser are. All they know is OHC and FI and usually don't give the older technology the credit it's due if it's working correctly. Many will not take the time to educate themselves in the earlier technology as they probably are having a hard time understanding the newer technology (if they even care). Still, the basic functions of mixing fuel with air and igniting the whole mix is still what makes things happen.

We know that Mr. Leno has spent massive amounts of money restoring many vehicles back to their original condition, but I suspect that just as with any other person, he has made some judgment calls on how he might do things due his own personal tastes and orientations and how they might interact with the initial condition of the vehicle. Still, that doesn't make what he does any better or worse than anyone else in my orientation and "doesn't make it right" just because he did it if he modified the vehicle. Any car that a noted celebrity has owned will be worth more than a similar car that a more common person owns--period.

Unfortunately, there are no "deed restrictions" on automobile titles. When we sell a vehicle, we loose control of it and that's the way it is. Hopefully, the great original configuration vehicles will find owners that appreciate them for what they are and will use their discretion for any changes they might make to them (in normal maintenance, refurbishing, or restoration), knowing full well that an original vehicle is usually worth more money (in an amount verified by the various hobby price guides) whereas a customized vehicle/street rod/street machine will only be worth what someone will pay for it (which can be highly variable!).

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Unfortunately in the car hobby, we've seen many straight, rust-free cars that were cut up for drag race cars, chopped top customs, or wasted by their owners in other ways. </div></div>

That is one thing. It has been happening for 75 years, and will always happen.

It's <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">[color:\\"red\\"]quite</span></span> another thing to go behind a rod shop someplace and pull an AACA senior or a BCA Archival badge out of the dumpster along with the pizza boxes and waste masking paper.

It (or something very like it) likely happens every day now.

[Guest sintid58]

When you talk about room and compactness of engine size I suggest you take a look at the Old Guys 37 Coupe De Grape. If he can shoe horn a 455 with all the trimmings (ie: a/c power brakes etc) under that hood and make it look good than size is no excuse for using a sbc. Its either lazy or you just don't care about Buicks.

[86 2dr.ltd]

My concern was more along the lines of what Dave pointed out. If that mind set is promoted it will spred like wildfire. Next thing you know easily swayed people will be putting Chevy plants in Skylarks, Rivieras, Wildcats and Electras, because thats where the pier pressure will be and the club doesnt care. It'll be hidious just like the tattoo,piercing fad.

Just like society, government, raising children, training animal, ect. there needs to be rules and guidelines, other wise all goes amuck. The proof and results are everywhere.

If it doesnt have a Buick engine in it your not driving a Buick. If its a Buick engine and a (nother) 32 Ford your not driving a Buick. I would assume the BCA is about the promotion of the Buick aspect of the auto hobby and I dont see where Chevy or Ford or Oldsmobile for that matter fits into the picture.

Everyone keeps going back to the old pre war hot rodded cars. Like I said they have their place for their hobby. No harm can be brought to them. I have little interest in hot rods, just not enough sheet metal or character for me. Seen one you've seen them all. 32 Ford, stang II front end, 9" ford axle, Chevy engine w/lots of chrome and straight tubes. DULL ! ! ! ! My concern is Chevy transplants going on in 50's,60's and 70's cars more than it has, cause we know it has.

The mind set amounst younger GM guys is that a SBC is the only engine. Its because they dont know much else. It was even common in the 70's when I was growning up. I didnt even know about Rivieras, Electras and Wildcats, never saw a GSX and only got a few fleeting glances of a 442. Education is the only way around this. Promoting Chevy transplants will only increase the ignorance that "it will be a great car just as soon as I get rid of that Buick engine"

Everyone talks about the better aftermarket for chevy, well this is surely supply and demand but the parts are out there for Buicks. Promoting chevy transplants will only decrease the demand for special Buick pieces thereby increasing the crate sindrome.

I have been told you can put EFI in any engine now adays and as Old Guy mentioned the 200R4 works on BOP bellhousing and can be built for high power as well.

The only way to stop or reduce the ignorance is to fight it, not promote it. It is inevitable in the end that Buick powerplants will be hard to come by no need to speed up the end results.

Around here is rare to find a Buick in a show, the only thing that would be worse would be finding a few Buicks only to find a Chevy engine in them. Buick lovers are a different crowd from my observation, why delute it?

[86 2dr.ltd]

I would like to point out in regards to NTX's statements. Models that I follow on e-bay that have been severly altered never get bids. Ive seen them come back for seconds as well with still no interest. This is another aspect of the education I mentioned. While these unmolested fine examples seem to be bringing much better money since the E-bay trend started.

[brad54]

You know, the Model A clubs back in the '60s thought the exact same thing about hot rods. At the swap meets, you wouldn't want to wear a Clay Smith Cams T-shirt, because the purists wouldn't sell you parts for your rod.

How many Model A clubs are there today?

I've met a ton of Mopar guys with Concours restos of super rare cars. The life cycle of them went something like this: spend $$$$ getting it "right" down to the last wing nut, show it for a few years and take the big trophies at the big shows, park it afterward because concours showing is a lot of work, leave it in the garage for years because it's not fun any more, then get a wild hair and decide to have a little fun with it like they did when it was new--headers, cam, intake, wheels and tires, and start having fun again.

And then I watched purists curse them--curse them!--for "ruining" a classic. Isn't this hobby supposed to be fun?

As for FI, people under 30 usually don't even know what a carb is. It's a fun double-edged sword, though; when TPI came out in the '80s, they were the hot ticket. Now that system looks really dated. I know someone who bought an ACCEL DFI system--and it was obsolete by the time he put it on the car! That's the great thing about a carb: it always looks good, and it's always in style. But FI is here to stay, just like the internet and tuning a car with a laptop.

The value of restored cars? Puleez. Put your money in a good mutual fund. Cars aren't an investment. There are exceptions, but for the most part, if you did a detailed accounting of all aspects of the restoration, including costs of tools, utilities to the shop, shop supplies, gas in your truck lugging parts around, etc., most wouldn't break even. It's a hobby.

Yeah, some guys start out with a restored car and then hot rod it, but the descriptions written here sound like a panic-stricken Chicken Little! I seriously doubt concours cars are being butchered in body shops with the good parts thrown in the dumpster with the pizza boxes and Bud empties on a daily basis. That being said, why should I, as a rodder, be left to work with the dregs, rust buckets and your cast-off parts cars because I'm going to rod it, and leave the cherry stuff for the resto crowd? A rust bucket can be restored just as easily as it can be hot rodded. Another way to say that is that it takes just as much work to hot rod a car as it does to restore it. You guys can weld in new floors and quarters just like us rodders.

And I didn't say a 455 can't be made to fit anywhere--anything can be made to fit. But it's a simple fact that if you want flashy street rod stuff, then you aren't going to find billet A/C brackets, power steering brackets, motor mounts, underdrive pulleys, serpentine belt systems, polished compressers, aftermarket p/s pumps and billet valve covers for a 455. Can you even find a chrome water pump for one? It's not lazy. Aftermarket suppliers aren't developing lots of new technology for them. COMP Cams isn't designing cutting-edge technology with a 401 in mind. They're doing it on a small block Chevy, with BBC next on the drawing board. You can tilt at that windmill all you want, but that isn't going to change the fact.

Does that mean I like seeing it? No. I'm going to build my 322, and it's going to cost me. And when I'm done, I'll have more money in my 322 than a small block Chevy, and it won't make nearly the power. That doesn't make too much sense, from a financial stand point, does it? I'm building the car for myself, not falling on my sword (well, wallet) for some hi-minded "good of the hobby."

All this "Purist" stuff, anti-hot rodding, "us versus them", "they don't love Buicks because they don't like them the way we say they should", let's keep it segregated, the end of the world is coming if a Chevy engine goes in a Buick stuff is for the birds.

I'm a total car nut. Like 'em all. Have a soft spot for Buicks. Worked my tail off to get a job that lets me play with cars all the live long day. Can't wait to get going on my totally customized '54 Special. Having a blast collecting literature and sniffing out ideas and tech and vintage go-fast goodies on how to make that dinosaur of an engine run. Some day want another '72 Centurion.

And would give my eye teeth and several other valued body parts to have the rock stock black paint, black top, black interior, 4-speed, bucket seat, dog-dish hub cap'd 455 GS I photographed for Super Rod magazine.

I like Buicks. But with the attitude several have displayed here, please tell me why I would want to attend a show with you.

-Brad

[NTX5467]

Several areas for comments, so please bear with me.

The "investment" aspect of the car hobby runs inversely to the interest rates on CDs. Look at all of the money that changed hands at Barrett-Jackson in Phoenix! Every high dollar street rod type car had some history which justified the high prices paid for them. That "1 of 200 (or so)" yellow '69 Z-28 with the factory cross ram AND 4-wheel disc brakes really surprised me, but it was what it was and a great looking car too. This isn't the first time that the collector car values were seen as better investments than CDs either! And it won't be the last.

Those who might be buying the pristine original or restored vehicles to hot rod them are playing to a particular market segment of the hobby. Looks great and serviceable "anywhere". Hence, the Chevrolet Crate Motor orientation whether it's a RamJet350 or the ZL1 limited edition motor, both with fuel injection and stand-alone controllers. Unfortunately, you can't sell the same piece of mind to those people with a correct Buick, Pontiac, or Olds motor in them--at least from their perspective. If it breaks down out in West Texas (for example), someone might be able to fix it because it's an engine they recognize by sight as a Chevrolet, if not, you'll call the tow truck you'd probably call anyway.

In the case of Flathead V-8 era Fords, there are valid reasons (as I understand it from a former Flathead era Ford/Mercury owner) for that original motor NOT being there. Had to do with not having to take a tow vehicle & trailer as a chase vehicle to out of town shows or rod runs, or something to that effect. He also took a V-12 Lincoln coupe and repowered it with a Cadillac 500 cid V-8. Why a Cadillac? It was GM and he had a buddy that worked at the local Cadillac dealer and salvage yard Cadillac motors were inexpensive. I still think he could have done the same thing with a 460 Ford V-8, though. He sold the V-12 and trans to a guy that needed it to restore his Lincoln so the recycling orientation did work in that case.

Now, for the "sticky" parts -- Back in the middle 1990s, there were grumblings from BCA members about "incorrect tires" and "incorrect headlights" having some stiff mandatory point deductions in the 400 Point judging system (moreso that5 in current times). Much dialogue was generated on these issues. As the BCA had already allowed non-factory CB radios with no penalty, these people figured radial tires and halogen headlights should fall under the same "safety" orientation.

One of our chapter members bought a really nice '65 Riviera from the son of the original owner. I thought it looked pretty nice as it was, but the new owner promptly started getting it repainted in the original color and other restoration activities started so he could take it to the Phoenix BCA meet the following year. He trailered it out there with all intentions of receiving a Gold award. He got zapped with the mandatory "incorrect tire" deduction, which combined with a jack penalty and other things resulted in the vehicle scoring in the high Bronze level. The tires were of the correct physical size, but had "P215/75B-15" on the side instead of the correct "as produced" size. He was not really pleased, but his inquiries and such did not change anything. He has since gone into the Cadillac area to pursue his automotive hobby activities, last we heard.

Walking in the main hall at the 1996 BCA Meet in Plano, I overheard a conversation on the tire issue. The member claimed that the BCA should "get with it" and follow other clubs that allowed radial tires and halogen headlights with no point penalties. The reply I heard from a lady sitting near the registration desk (which I presumed to be from the CA office staff) replied to the effect that as a single make car club, which is the most prestigious Buick club in general, the BCA should have a vehicle classification and judging activity that is more strict than any other multi-make vehicle club. That when you win a BCA Gold, Silver, or Bronze award, it would mean MORE than if it was from a multi-make club, even if it was a very large and prestigious multi-make club. The BCA judging should be to a higher degree of execution and the vehicles should be similar as this was the Buick Club of America and not someone else. In that orientation, I feel it would be highly appropriate if our Modified Division specified that all entries would be Buick-bodied and Buick-powered as the minimum specification for participation. Yes, I would advise Mr. Leno, if he showed up with his crate-motored Buick, that he could proudly display it in the Car Corral section, with all due respect. Remember too, in earlier times (like pre-1955 era), the vehicle was defined for registration purposes by the MOTOR and not the body. Some could have also used chassis numbers too. Check your state vehicle registrations statutes to make sure your modified vehicle is in compliance.

Now, for a high reality issue -- vehicle registration. In many states, if the state inspection people suspect the motor in the vehicle is not from the original engine family that the vehicle originally came with, they are empowered to investigate and determine the origin of the engine (with your assistance and/or by checking the numbers on the block). This is where the "early chassis, later motor" issue comes into play. This is also an area that many street rod people don't desire to discuss, in many cases.

If you will read your state's vehicle registration statutes, you'll probably find this rule in there. I believe that CA was a leader in this respect too.

Basically, if you put a SBC (for example) in something it did not or could not have come in, then its new home will need to have all of the emissions hardware it would have had in the vehicle it left the assembly plant with. That means: hot air air cleaners, A.I.R. pumps, evaporative emissions hardware, EGR valves, and other related things (including the catalytic converter!) that usually don't make the trip. If you use one of the formerly popular TPI setups from a middle 1980s Camaro or Corvette, it will usually "date" the motor to those year models whereas an appropriate 4bbl carb would not. Similarly, an LT1 or LS1 engine would similarly date the vehicle's requirements too. Therefore, there ARE some little ins and outs of building a street rod that you can register without incident. Texas has a publication that basically tells you how to build a legal street rod and other states might have similar publications also.

In the case of CA, as I understand it, you do have the option of seeing if your modified vehicle meets the appropriate emissions regulations via testing at an approved testing facility. If it passes, it doesn't matter what's not on it, as I understand it. But if it doesn't, then the "laundry list" might begin.

In the total scheme of things, what's easier to do? Put that pre-emissions era Buick motor in there and make it right or add all of that later model emissions hardware to your vintage vehicle? Sure, getting the "right" GM Crate Motor can slip under the radar and many have the disclaimer of "pre-1978" in the current catalog.

Can you build a "green" hot rod? Sure, with a little planning and appropriate funding. Combine an Electromotive (or similar) engine management system with an aftermarket fuel injection system, put some high flow cats under there with a crossover pipe, add some ThermoTec insulation as needed, plus maybe even an "unleaded only" fuel restrictor in the fuel filler pipe and that high performance street rod/street machine can be as environmentally friendly and economical (if that OD automatic is in the mix too) as many newer vehicles. And, just as with the Buick Blackhawk, it CAN happen with a Buick V-8.

Brad, one thing I've been curious about is what would happen if you took a modern Comp Cams assymetrical profile lobe configuration, get into the back of the catalog where all of that stuff is listed, and put together a combination of intake and exhaust lobes and timing events for a custom ground Nailhead camshaft? Then make sure it's compatible with the diameter of the Buick valve lifters instead of being for the generic SBC lifter diameter. I wonder just how much more power and efficiency could be had by combining that? Many of the modern cams have much more duration than the early "3/4 race" cams of the 1950s so I suspect there ought to be some extra power in there somewhere with my proposed combination without hurting driveability or liveability. Might be worth some "bench racing" discussions? Seems like I've seen some websites devoted specifically to Nailhead performance?

When I walk up on a vehicle at a car show or weekend cruise, if it has the correct manufacturer of engine in it, that gets points in my book as it indicates the owner went to extra trouble to put it there PLUS that there might be some neat "other" stuff on the vehicle too. Something that just didn't appear under the UPS person's arm by the magic of plastic. In other words, the owner went to a higher degree of execution to do what they did, which I highly appreciate.

Many people like their "generic" street rods with the Chevy powerplant, but an owner that goes above and beyond that level to keep a Buick engine in a customized Buick, for example, will alwasy make me smile and compliment the owner if they are around.

Thanks for your time and consideration,

NTX5467

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Yeah, some guys start out with a restored car and then hot rod it, but the descriptions written here sound like a panic-stricken Chicken Little! I seriously doubt concours cars are being butchered in body shops with the good parts thrown in the dumpster with the pizza boxes and Bud empties on a daily basis. </div></div>

You need to read more, Brad, and be more observant. One casual glance at any rodder want ad section will reveal the extent of the problem. Check the cars I linked in other threads: Nash-Healey, 1930's woody prototypes, Full Classics, rare and special order cars, etc. <span style="font-style: italic">And</span> it's accelerating rapidly because (as I pointed out) it's a profit-making venture.

The results are plainly visible at most any rod show. If you see a hot rod that sports an extremely rare/expensive/perfect stock trim piece or accessory that doesn't fit with a driven hot rod's normal complement (e.g. rare NOS side mirors, interior comfort accessories, rare grille guards, etc.), items that cost hundreds or thousands of dollars to replace and are being <span style="font-style: italic">used</span> in a driven rod, that car was made from a previous restoration. Period.

For example, the small-block '37 Terraplane I mention if the linked thread above had <span style="font-style: italic">the</span> nicest example of the hyper-rare/valuable stock plastic "carrot" hood ornament I've ever seen. There's no way a hot rodder would pay what that piece is worth for a rod he's building. It'd have been replaced. Instead it's now crackling away in the sun like it's brethern did 60 years ago, and being driven home in the rain.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> That being said, why should I, as a rodder, be left to work with the dregs, rust buckets and your cast-off parts cars because I'm going to rod it, and leave the cherry stuff for the resto crowd? </div></div>

First of all, that's <span style="font-weight: bold">not</span> the choice. It makes an argument so much easier to win in your head when you can frame the opposition's point for them. Your wrong. The choice is between using rare/irreplacable material (and <span style="font-weight: bold">just</span> that material) to make a temporal plaything or an historically accurate recreation, <span style="font-weight: bold">and</span> in some cases sacrificing these historical items already preserved for a temporal plaything.

<span style="font-style: italic">(Hot rods are "temporal" because they have a shelf life. Once a car is rodded according to today's tastes and technology, a clock starts ticking. 5-10-15 years down the road, it's an unappreciated parts car once more. Pick up any 1980 <span style="font-weight: bold">Rod & Custom</span> magazine and look at the photos. Those muraled/dingle-balled/chain steering wheeled/ET magged/shag carpeted/sparkle-seated creations, what few of them still exist, would be an embarrassment at most any rod show today.) </span>

What we "purists" (and that term is no more an insult than "liberal" or "conservative") seek to do, though largely for fun, is to preserve our memories and those of our father's in a physical form. <span style="font-weight: bold">It's an historical object that is being preserved, not just a toy to play with. If you want a "why" to anything people find revulsive about hot rods, that's it.</span> Our cars are toys as well, and that aspect of the hobby is universal. But there's more than fun at stake in this game, and it's increasingly obvious that the rest of the equasion is dissappearing from the public perspective.

As long as there is a market of people who appreciate the look of antique cars and have no appreciation whatsoever for their historical value, this problem will continue to get worse.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> A rust bucket can be restored just as easily as it can be hot rodded. Another way to say that is that it takes just as much work to hot rod a car as it does to restore it. </div></div>

Again, <span style="font-weight: bold">wrong!</span> <span style="font-style: italic">You</span> find me my NOS interior panels, seat material, stainless/chrome trim, accessories, and correctly date-coded wear items for my 1960 LeSabre (or my friend's 1928 Buick). Then put them together correctly (with no help for the boys at J.C. Whitney). Then you can take my dental tools and detail brushes to recondition the old/worn pieces so that they appear new as well. After that you'll have some perspective as to what is lost when a restoration is rodded out of the Summit catalog with a few yards of tan leather and a box load of digital dash bits from a catalog.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I like Buicks. But with the attitude several have displayed here, please tell me why I would want to attend a show with you. </div></div>

When you have an answer for this question that doesn't involve money: <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The value of restored cars? Puleez. </div></div> ...you'll know.

[brad54]

NTX--I like the way you think. We see pretty close on most things I think--this subject and other stuff of yours I've read about. I TOTALLY agree with what you said about seeing a Ford in a Ford, Buick in a Buick, etc. I'll stop and take a quick look at a car, because they almost always have something interesting on them. But I'll spend forever walking around a car that's got a marque engine, just because I know that if the guy went to that trouble, there's more there to see.

As for the cam in my Buick, that's EXACTLY what I'm going to do! COMP regrinds cams, and you're right, they've done just tons of advancements in profile and design. I'm actually really looking forward to doing that. I might even get really stupid and have my heads and intake flowed to really dial in the cam grind. In fact, that's probably what I'll HAVE to do to realize the most from it. That, and their new beehive valve springs. I'm hoping they'll come out with some for another application that I can swap in without too much trouble.

But I still think Leno should be allowed on the field in the Modified class

Dave@moon:

I'm absolutely convinced now that you're one of the guys in the hobby that hates hot rodders. You're the first person I've ever known to use the word "revulsive" while talking about hot rods, and actually mean it.

The guy that got that rare hood ornament that you think is so horrible, and you're sure he didn't pay top dollar for it? If he didn't really want it on there, he'd have simply shaved it. In fact, that's what a lot of guys do with hood ornaments and emblems.

And now it's actually in the sun and the rain?! (GASP!) Oh no! You mean people actually drive their cars?! Why, the next thing you know, they'll be taking them to the grocery store and picking up their kids from school! And then where will it end? The drive in movies? They might even be involved in a traffic accident, and then they'd have to be restored. Again.

Short of putting a car around a phone pole or hit by a cement truck, it's pretty hard to make a classic car a total loss. I've seen them hit, dropped, burned, t-boned, double-ended and flipped, and brought back.

There are some cars that should be put in museums: pilot cars, one-offs, super-low production (one-of-less than ten), etc. But a 455 GS or a 2x4 425 Riv isn't on that list. They're awesome cars (and cars I'd like to own, in stock trim), but not Picaso paintings or DaVinci sculptures.

You keep referring to it as a problem and such. I guess that's where you and I differ most--hot rodding isn't a "problem." What my buddies and I do with cars isn't a travesty.

Some rods are built with an expiration date. Others are timeless and classic. Some are built to a fad. Almost always they can be updated, re-designed, re-built, re-painted, etc. There's nothing wrong with that. Wire wheels, pastel paints and Pro Street are good examples. But most rods aren't built to that extent anyway. The vast majority of modified cars can be restored without too much effort. In my mind, though, it beats walking down row after row of the same car. "Yup, there's another one. Just like the rest of them were."

(Anybody with a nice resto, pleae don't take offense at that comment--I've stated often--including here--that I appreciate the work and what you've done. And I like a lot of restos--just not all the time!)

My '57 wagon is a rod, and I've gone to a lot of effort tracking down parts for it. Try finding a set of '60 drag slicks that are still good. I've got about the last full rubber floor mat in the country, and a full set of "delete" plates--radio, heater, vent, etc. And I found an original set of 150 seat covers for it.

My Buick? Weiand intake manifold and Cragar bellhousings don't exactly grow on trees. Period correct: at some point, I want a factory tissue dispenser for it. That's pretty rare, and I'll pay for it. I've got the plastic tubes and headliner vents for the trunk-mount A/C. The vents are pot metal, and are going to cost a fortune to restore. Those are pretty rare.

You know, another questions is, what level of restoration are you talking about? A car with nice options and two gallons of bondo in the quarters and fresh paint isn't going to command as much as a car that had new quarters expertly welded in, the seam finished with lead, and no filler used. There are restored cars (dime a dozen) and then there are RESTORED cars. The expertly done, high-dollar, concours, OE-perfect cars aren't getting turned into hot rods. These cars generally start in the $40K range and go up accordingly. Not too many are getting snapped up and fitted with Vette drivelines. A percentage may, sure, but it's a small percent.

And allowing a SBC-powered '50 on the show field isn't going to contribute to people doing it. It's just going to give them a place to hang out with us.

(I'm confused about the whole tire and headlight debate, though: If it's judged as OE original (don't know BCA's phrase), then it should be exactly the way they were shipped--tires, headlights and all. That's the way the Mopars are done. Everything as delivered to the dealer.)

Not a toy to play with? Of course they are. There isn't anything more than fun "at stake" with this hobby. Rodding or restoring. There are always going to be restored cars. And there are always going to be hot rods. In fact, if it wasn't for us hot rodders, you think there would have ever been a 2x4 425? Four speed? Posi? GS? GSX?

They're cars, it's a hobby. Hang out with friends, enjoy some cold Cokes, bond with the kid. Leave the animosity and disdain for other areas of your life. Or aim it at the imports! (just kidding)

Don't believe the hype indeed.

[HurstGN]

I'll add my .02 to the fray here. I know some cars are "modified" out of sheer lack of funds to "do it right". Others, because it's what's familiar to the owner and easier to take care of. Some just to raise the ire of the purist by swapping parts. Yet others were doing anything in their power to save a rusted heap from never being seen again. Yet others are interested in the safety factor and "upgrade" if you will to a better technology.

What's the point you ask? Well, it seems everyone has reasons to be modified, and the fighting over "do you really love your Buick" is centered around apples vs. oranges types of debates.

Now me, I'd love to bring my all original 1982 Turbocharged (from the factory) Grand National to a meet and insist it be entered in the Grand National class. Having done this once at "another Buick club's function" these were some of the best comments I heard:

<ul style="list-style-type: disc">[*]"That's not a Grand National. All Grand Nationals are black. You're in the T-Type class over there." [*]"That's a fake, none of the 1982 Grand Nationals had turbos on them."[*]"There's nothing special about that car. Don't waste your film on it." {said a father to his son}

Two of those comments were from the very knowedgable judges of the day. The fact I had complete documentation on the car, including the original build sheet and window sticker on display, meant nothing.

Now to restore one of these cars today...there are obstacles. Try to find a numbers matching engine and carb for this car. Try to find the 3 piece front air dam for this car, that was made only for this car. Try to find an original 3 piece rear spoiler for this car. These were hand laid fiberglass center sections for the spoiler. The later years were identical looking ABS plastic, but lets keep it original with the hand laid fiberglass pieces, please. How about the Grand National emblem on the dash cluster...that Buick didn't even have enough of to install when these cars were originally built. Yes, some were delivered without this piece from Buick. Are they not Grand Nationals then? Oh, lest we forget the tires, which were out of manufacture just about the time these cars rolled out to dealers. Hrmm, if I DID find one on a shelf, I'd prolly not trust driving on it! (safety concern) Ah, the interior, and the Brandon cloth that was made specifically for these handfulls of Grand Nationals only and not used on any other Buick that year or any other year. Yea, there's an easy to find item in the aftermarket (forget OEM, there were less than 5 left after production ceased.) Oh, don't forget this car was produced by Buick in conjunction with Cars and Concepts. Good luck figuring out who might have the part you need. Hint: Cars and Concepts is no more, and hasn't been for many years.

Yup...my car came from the factory pretty much a bastard child at birth. And to have it judged, who's to say what parts are correct and what parts are not on the car? I'll bet I know more about what is correct than the judge would...or the tech advisor for 1982. So who's right when it comes to what's original and what's modified on my car? I dunno, haven't tried this one at a national yet.

My point is, I care about the car enough to save and maintain it. I'm into the Buicks. I drive nothing but Buicks (forgive me father for I drove a Mopar truck 3 weeks ago, but it was only to pickup a TV that would not fit in the trunk of my car. But it was borrowed from another Buick owner if that counts for anything.). Perhaps the direction to take is to the best interest in keeping our hobby alive. If we adopt such strict rules that only the purest of the pure will be allowed to enter the show field, well, I fear people will leave our club and look for a club that will accept them for who they are, and what they decide they want to drive (or trailer in). The purest of the pure will still be welcome, and I'll admire them for the ability to maintain their cars in such a fashion. But I can appreciate the college kid that found an 84 Grand National with a blown motor, and dropped a SBC in it to get it running again and prevent it from being parted out. And once he sees the fantastic power the little fuel injected V6 makes, he may decide to save his money to someday return the little V6 to the GN.....but if he's tossed aside with his SBC, he may never get bitten by the bug from other club members to make the final part of the restoration decision. And for those looking to keep things the purest of the pure, doesn't this hurt your chances of having another pure restoration than help? Just something to keep in mind.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> And now it's actually in the sun and the rain?! (GASP!) Oh no! You mean people actually drive their cars?! </div></div>

Never debate this topic with someone who's limited automotive concepts doesn't include the complications of age. Brad, while you <span style="font-style: italic">think</span> you've pegged my understanding and attitudes on this subject <span style="font-style: italic">(you're not even close, by the way)</span> you've amply demonstrated your own. Like many in the hobby today, it's obviously <span style="font-style: italic">all</span> about looking cool to you. In this case (and I'm sure there are many more), you need to read up on what happens to 1937 technology plastics after UV and atmospheric exposure (your '54 a/c tubes will fare much better, they'll only turn yellow). That very expensive "carrot" is (after 2 years) likely a highly fractured piece of crap now, essentially worthless even to you. Unless of course there's a repro one introduced in next year's Year One Terraplane catalog!

....and <span style="font-style: italic">"There are always going to be restored cars."</span> Wanna bet?

On one count you're right. The guy who did the Terraplane hot rod may be just as clueless as to what he was doing when he built the car as you've demonstrated yourself to be. Maybe he shelled out the near 4 figures that ornament usually costs (every decade or so when a mint/NOS one is found) and stuck it out there to die. He wouldn't be the first to inadvertantly ruin something he liked.

It's like trying to explain water molecules to a fish.

[Buicksplus]

Friends:

Hey, most all old cars are modified in one way or another. The paint may be too shiney, the weave in the upholstery wrong, too much chrome here and there.

But the car restorer is trying to rebuild weathered and damaged cars so they look and drive like they did when they left the factory. This is rarely acheived, really only those very rare unrestored mint original cars can come close. But that is always the goal.

Street rods are built to the builder's own standards, each is its own Monster Garage project. This is a creative, skilled process, no doubt about it. But it is fundamentally different from car restoration. And it does conflict with car restoration in that both rodders and restorers compete for the same raw material. Unfortunately, a restored or original car can always be rodded, but most rods cannot revert back to orignal.

The reality is clubs need continuous supplies of active members to survive. Clubs need to appeal to a broad cross section of car nuts to do that or otherwise serve an exclusive "boutique" market like the CCCA. I really don't think too many restorers or rodders are going to switch their hobbies, but they can certainly enjoy each other's company and have a good time playing with their cars.

I for one have been a member of the BCA for years and my interest is in original cars. I do not intend to quit the BCA if it admits modified cars (It already does, there were many at the Centennial). I might if it were overtaken by rodders, just because I also need to meet and talk to other car restorers. But I really don't think that will happen. If it did, no doubt, a BCA "Classic" car club might come about.

Bill

Albuquerque

[brad54]

My attitude would be "To each his own," and "Never bad-mouth another's work, effort and car--even if I don't like it or find it to my taste." I've backed that up not only by practicing it at shows, and admonishing others who feel obliged to rip someone's work while at a show, but I've written it in editorials for the magazines I've worked for. "If you can't say anything nice, then don't say anything at all" is something I took to heart.

I'm not clueless and I'm not ignorant. I just don't think we're curing cancer here.

It's not all about looking cool. It's all about having fun. If you enjoy restoring a car with the proper overspray, chalk marks and paint runs going the correct way on chassis components, fantastic! It's not what floats my boat, but I certainly appreciate the time, effort and detective work involved in that aspect of the hobby.

I just can't, for the life of me, understand why people would want to exclude other enthusiasts from buick shows if they're driving a Buick bodied car or buick powered car, for all the reasons I've mentioned.

There is some serious animosity here, and I can't understand it.

And regardless of what some may say or think, it is truely the rare case a car can't be brought back to original, if the costs justifies it. Look at all the former Super Stock cars that are concours now. Cars that had full roll cages and narrowed rear ends with wheel tubs are now restored. For instance the '69 ZL-1 Camaros and Hemi Darts.

If the terraplane carrot is so valuable and rare, and costs well into four digits, there's someone out there that can recreate one that's correct. A small injection molding company can create a perishible die that would kick out several parts before expiring. And it'd be affordable. There are guys that specialize in everything, and most things can be built on a limited number, one-off basis. It isn't cheap, but it's nowhere near as expensive as people think either. I worked in plastics for a while, so this isn't just spouting off--it could be done if someone wants it. Much in the same way a steering wheel could be stripped to the steel wire, cut down for a smaller diameter, welded back together and then re-cast. If I really tried, I could make new plastic A/C tubes in my garage with clear plastic tubes, an oven and a couple of wooden plugs to shape the warm plastic. (And I might, now that I've given it a little thought! Just this moment I think I figured out how to do it!)

Dan, up above here, said it really, really well.

The last thing I'm going to say on this thread is from someone else who said it pretty good:

"Can't we all just get along?"

-Brad

[The Old Guy]

This is not the first time this subject has come up, nor will it be the last. I have been in the BCA since 1969, and am pleased to see that the modified Buicks are at least being tolerated.I joined BCA because my boys wanted to use my drag car on the street. We switched to antique Buicks because they were the only thing I could afford that were big enough. Through the years I have had both restored and modified Buicks, and I still do! Our 400 point judging system makes it very difficult to drive a car any distance and still stay pristine enough to win senior. There are people that do drive their Buicks to the national meets and get senior and preservation awards, but the cars are not driven much. I have bias tires and all the proper parts on my 40 convertible, but I have driven it 100,000 miles and redone it twice. It still has too much road rash ,but I really don't care, as I go to the meets to enjoy the cars and people. My 37 has been extensively modified, but it is still instantly recognizable as a Buick, and is fun to drive. This "Modified" question can go on forever, but there are some people that like them and some that never will. It is like the "boattail Riv" you either luv 'em or hate 'em

[86 2dr.ltd]

Brad & Dave you both have good legitimate points but they are at both extremes. Originally posted was about modified Buicks still having Buick powerplants.

Extreme purests have a place to show their cars and a highly rewardable position

Hot Rodders have a place to show their craft.

I was thinking this topic was about a place for the misfits. The guys that might change the paint color, uses some serious wheels and tires, maybe customize the sheet metal or suspension upgrades. However at the same time show enough respect and LUV for the brand by using a genetically acceptable power plant. A very fare compromise in my opinion.

The Chevy motor heads have more than enough places to go and be chummy and talk bow-tie.

Die hard purests have plenty of company to talk about the little factory picularitys to the perfect restoration.

I heard (second hand) about a good example of Daves point. Apparently the highly acclaimed Jessie James bought a top quality ElCamino? from a man. Took it straight to his shop and destroyed the mans hard work. Then lured him back to the shop to see it just to destroy the guy. We are currently at a high in society where counter point is fasionable. Everyone wants to shock somebody. The days of respect for the past and elders or another mans work has been replaced by destroy the past and grandpa with it. Want to argue that one ? I wouldnt , I can see quite well.

If these guys are so unhappy with a older cars styling why dont they be real creative men and build their own bodys like many shops did in the 60's & 70's ? Because thats not the point, the point is in many instances to destroy anothers man hard work. Wipe it out just for the kick !

Brad, I would like to see your Buick rod, sounds like quite a project.

Im sure the BCA will make the right decision on this and consider Buick to be Buick built sheet metal and Buick built engine. Then modified to what ever personal preferencis there.

[Guest my3buicks]

Buick Built, Buick Powered, Buick Bodied, if it is not driven on the field under Buick Power it doesn't have the heart of a Buick. Modified or not it needs to be BUICK bodied and powered! ! This keeps the guidelines rather simple.

[pphil]

at the nats in bowling green 3 years ago i saw a ford mustang

so i asked why "rules state BUICK POWERED" enough said.

i think thats cool(but if leno showed up he couldnt race)not buick powered

thats not cool.let them show there cars.

after building 1 nailhead i can see why chevy engins are popular

(my 305 rebuild was a total cost of 600.00 stock 30 over

my 425 has already cost over 1800.00 and still counting stock 30 over)

but i would never swap it for a chevy.

scott

1964 wildcat 425 2-4's 4-speed

not a #'s matching car

oops i must be modified

[Dave@Moon]

For the record:

<span style="font-weight: bold">1.</span> As near as I can tell, there isn't enough demand for Terraplane hood ornaments for even the limited run Brad describes. (I have a good friend in Pittsburgh who did a '38 and went through fits with her hood ornament, which is why I have a scoped in on that particular piece.)

<span style="font-weight: bold">2.</span> I anticipate seeing Brad's rod as much as anyone. I have <span style="font-style: italic">never</span> been anti-hot rod. I <span style="font-style: italic">am</span> a preservationist in most respects, and as such only a small few of the hot-rodding clan offend me greatly. I think the club should be prepared for such conflicts of interest, hopefully small in scope, in the future of this division.

But then again, we could easily be growing our own Jesse James here.

<span style="font-weight: bold">3.</span> I am in fact typing this while wearing a jacket with an embroidered deuce coupe on the back, and you can bet it ain't stock! I'm also listening to Jan & Dean sing <span style="font-style: italic">Schlock Rod</span> as I type this. No fooling!

<span style="font-weight: bold">4.</span> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> And regardless of what some may say or think, it is truely the rare case a car can't be brought back to original, if the costs justifies it. </div></div> Setting aside that the (by far) greater rarity is the cost justification of re-restoring a rodded car, the simple fact is that in many cases, and most cases for certain commonly rodded cars, <span style="font-weight: bold"> [color:\\"red\\"]this <span style="font-style: italic">isn't</span> true.</span> <span style="font-weight: bold">Any</span> chopped and/or channelled car is lost. <span style="font-weight: bold">Any</span> frame modifed car is lost. <span style="font-weight: bold">Many</span> trashed interiors can never be replaced.

In the '57 Chevy world where most everything is available, yes it can be done. If you're working on a car Year One doesn't cater to, once gone it's gone for good. Period.

<span style="font-weight: bold">5.</span> Quick questions: Is a Rover V8 Buick power? How about a Jeep V6? How do you tell rodded Apollo from a rodded Omega? Is a Turbo Trans-AM Buick powered? My Dad's '77 Estate Wagon had a Chevy s.b. in it, does that mean it wasn't "Buick powered" and therefore not welcome in our club modified or no? If the Estate Wagon is welcome, would it be out of line to drop an L82 into a Skyhawk?

Oh, wait a minute, Skyhawks already had s.b.c.'s. I forgot. Guess anything goes.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Welcome to the slippery slope, </div></div>

[imported_buick5563]

I agree with the fact that society has an extreme fascination with "counter-point" and confrontation but I actually think Jesse James might be a good thing. Look at all the kids watching that show. It's about thinking through problems. Maybe dopey problems, but Mr. James is a serious metal worker. If ten kids grew up to be able to use an english wheel because they saw Jesse do it, the world will be a better place.

Mike

[Pontiac59]

The problem with Buick power only is what about the cars that came with non-Buick motors in the first place? Certain '70's 6-cyl cars with a Chevy motor, and '77-up cars where you might have a Pontiac 301, Olds 307, Buick 350, Olds 403 or even a Chevy V8 under the hood - and they were built that way. I had a '77 LeSabre for about a month a few years ago before the 301 threw a rod at 137,000 miles. Broke it in 3 pieces in fact. I could have put a Pontiac 455 in it, a Chevy bellybutton smallblock, or anything else and had a hot rod. (instead I put another 301 in it and dumped it for about 2/3 of what I paid for it). Does that make it a non-Buick? Heck my '84 Skylark has a Chevy 2.8 V6 in it, it's all original, about the ugliest car I've ever seen but still a Buick...

[BigFella]

This is kinda off topic but man is this a great discussion!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Jessie James bought a top quality ElCamino? </div></div>

And it had to have been just for spite because I see more of those in SoCal then...well mid-80's Buicks! :-) (I'm sorry 86, I'm in that kinda mood tonight )

There is a guy down the street from me that has two of them and a gent a block away that still has the Ford version sitting on the street with ladder racks on it for hauling stuff! It amazes me every time I leave the house out here the number and quality of old cars still on the streets as daily drivers...I have promised myself if we move back east I'm buying a project car before I leave this place!!

[HurstGN]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Is a Turbo Trans-AM Buick powered? </div></div>

Dave, The saying goes, "The '89 Turbo Trans Am is the fastest Pontiac Buick ever built."

[1937hd45]

Brad54, In your post on 2/15/04 you mentioned Tommy Ivo and his nail head Buick powered drag cars and Fad T, and made it sound like the 22JR. cars were his. It was Tony Nancy who used the 22JR. on all is race cars. His restored 1929 Model A Ford roadster on the Kent Fuller chassis with Nailhead power won first Junior and Senior Awards in AACA. It was also THE FIRST EVER drag car to win AACA's Past Presidents Racing Cup.

[JohnD1956]

It's hard to sit by the sidelines on this topic, but in reality, isn't a RESTORED car really modified? If you use new paint on a car of any age, it's actually modified. Maybe RESTORED to look original, but modified just the same.

Let them all in. And when you pass by one you don't care for, say "hi" just the same. When 6,000 Fords show up for their centenial celebration, and only 1,700 Buicks for ours ( even though they were the most beautiful 1,700 cars I ever saw), I think the club is missing something.

John D

[brad54]

Absolutely right on the 22jr cars! Sorry about that--tire smoke kills brain cells...