What is the point?????????

[1937hd45]

Just recieved my Judges Newsletter today, and see that the DPC (Driver Participation Category) got top billng. If this is in fact a NON judging class why must the hood and trunk be displayed open? NOTHING ruins the look of a 400 point show car more than an open hood or trunk. Why do we want to see luggage in the open trunk of a driver? For those who don't know, this is MY opinion.

[Guest]

Bob, maybe the Vice President of Class Judging could answer your question. He does monitor the judging threads doesn't he? I'm sure he will come back shortly with a full and complete explanation.

hvs

[66 Mystery Chevelle]

Well, if it's just OPINIONS we are giving...I for one like, NO, LOVE seeing every part of a car when at CAR SHOW. The engines on some cars, whether driver quality or show quality are some of the most interesting and unique parts of the car itself. Trunks, while not always intriging, are part of the car and if I am about to start a restoration of XYZ car to original condition, That car that you may not want to see with it's hood open or trunk open...well, that may be just the car I NEED to see and take pictures of, so I can make mine correct. That XYZ car may be the only one I have come across and it sure would be helpful to ME in my learning and appreciation of the car, but if the trunk and hood is closed...I don't particularily want to hang around all day waiting for the owner to come back so I can ask him to pop the lids. So, it really has nothing to do with JUDGING or NOT IMO.

As far as the rest of this...well, I am sorry...it's gettin OLD. Got a problem with someone or something...pick up the phone talk Man to Man with the source of the problem. End of Story.

[R W Burgess]

I agree "66". Also, since the class has to be 90% original, there's no other way to tell, but to have trunks and hoods open. My '56 wagon was warned at the Richmond show last year for the chrome "mag" wheels(You sure they didn't have them "factory" in 1956?) <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> This is a great class to get new people in the AACA and, as a stepping stone, maybe to the judged classes in the future. You know, you may show up at the show with your driver this year, but maybe have a real winner as a participant the next. Wayne

[Guest]

You are right 66 about the rest of this getting old. It could end with a simple response from the man in charge.

However, when the party in question cannot be reached in a direct way or refuses to respond, it is sometimes necessary to follow a non direct route. Ignoring a problem will not correct it. Public criticism or discussion may lead to a change in the upcoming year.

This is after all an AACA forum and ALL issues effecting the organization should be open for discussion. It need not be limited solely to nice pleasant car discussions. AACA is a business and not all business discussions will please everyone.

Just my opinion and that of many others. ~ hvs

PS: This should be my last word on the subject until "the man" responds. When that happens I will offer a BIG thank you.

[Terry Bond]

Although DPC isn't really a judged class, it's still important to see whats under the hood etc to ensure the car qualifies for the class. So, Wayne, that means you can't put that blown Hemi in the 35 Ford Sedan and call it "DPC." I gotta tell you what a great experience it was to work with CC Wheeler "judging" (certifying is perhaps a better word) the DPC at a National Meet a couple of years ago. It was a wonderful opportunity to talk with car owners and answer their questions about AACA, judging, how to detail under the hood, etc. The biggest surprise to me was how many of the DPC cars that were coming out for the first time were owned by brand new members, and those cars were absolutely stunning-the vast majority of them were easily second place if not better! There were even a couple of super HPOF cars that turned up. So Wayne, you are absolutely correct-it's a great stepping stone for new members! I think everyone should make it a point to visit the DPC class and meet the people behind the wheels there. As far as "hoods up" it sure is great to see all of the car including the engine compartment. Later in the day I find car owners are most accommodating about closing the hood/trunk lid so that pics can be taken, in fact most people tend to close them anyway after judging has been completed.

Terry

[D Binger]

Terry,

Why is it that the DCP vehicles are never listed in the AA mag when there is a write up about a meet? I have never seen one mention of these.

Dan

[1937hd45]

Terry, If this is true that cars in DPC could go home with a second or third Junior Award why in the world would they deside to park in a mixed bag of vehicles? Why be a second class member?

[ronbarn]

1937 - It is "second class" if you continue to insist on that designation. I think you are wrong. I have a couple of cars that have had to much "restoration" to qualify for HPOF. They have not had enough "restoration" to place in a show class. They are drivers. They were acquired to be tour cars. They are for the most part authentic and those parts that are not will eventually be corrected. The only place these cars can really be displayed is the DPC and when I do that I WILL NOT consider that "second class". And I will proudly raise the hood to show people the beauty of a Marmon Sixteen engine.

[1937hd45]

Ron, I guess I'm just haveing a hard time accepting AACA's effort to be all things to everyone. Back in the old days if I wanted to look at and compair Marmons, Stutz or whatever I'd go the the class that they qualified for and look at them. Can a DPC entrant be trailered to the meet? I keep getting this picture of the Bluebird tour bus people folding up their cardtable in the fleamarket,unkooking their DPC vehicle and driving across the street to display in the DPC parking space. This was all based on conversations I had with AACA members with 25 year old cars and a set of dealer plated last year at Hershey. Does AACA accept DPC cars at the same time as show cars? Could DPC cars outnumber or bump show cars off the field? Could Hershey turn into a large daytime cruise nite?

[R W Burgess]

Not to change direction here, Bob, but "Daytime Cruise Night" reminds me of what all the regular long time AACA members thought was going to happen with the "hot rod" class. That was the biggest reason that class was killed , miscommunication and poor advertizing. Let's hope that's behind us. As far as DPC cars bumping show cars, I wonder if that question has ever arose yet. Glad you brought it up. Personally, I would like to see a Director Liason(SIC) person in the AACA forum to get answers to questions like these. Steve Moskowitz is doing a good job of that now, but I'll bet he'll be too busy in the future to handle things like this. Just thinking out loud. Wayne

[1937hd45]

Thanks Wayne, you're pretty perceptive, I think this DPC deal needs to be thought out. I don't to be anywhere near the guy that was bumped from Hershey with a 6-10 year long, spend all his money restoration when he walks by a wreck with dealer plates in DPC.

[ted sweet]

that attitude is why my car stays home.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ron, I guess I'm just haveing a hard time accepting AACA's effort to be all things to everyone. Back in the old days if I wanted to look at and compair Marmons, Stutz or whatever I'd go the the class that they qualified for and look at them. Can a DPC entrant be trailered to the meet? I keep getting this picture of the Bluebird tour bus people folding up their cardtable in the fleamarket,unkooking their DPC vehicle and driving across the street to display in the DPC parking space. This was all based on conversations I had with AACA members with 25 year old cars and a set of dealer plated last year at Hershey. Does AACA accept DPC cars at the same time as show cars? Could DPC cars outnumber or bump show cars off the field? Could Hershey turn into a large daytime cruise nite? </div></div>

[nearchoclatetown]

1937, why wouldn't the AACA be all things to all people with antique vehicles?

[ronbarn]

There is a problem here and that is attempting to view everything in AACA in terms of the Hershey venue. There is a whole lot of AACA which is not Hershey Fall Meet. If there is a point when we have limits on number of vehicles accepted to be shown, then there will have to be a consideration of which vehicles will have a priority. I agree with the concept that IF there has to be a limitation then the DPC and even the HPOF would have a lower priority than the cars entered in the show classes. However, for most meets, and even for Hershey to this date this has not been a problem. What is the point??? The point is that the DPC and HPOF classes have not prevented other vehicles from being shown, even at Hershey, and that there is enough interest by many AACA members to bring out their vehicles in these classes and there is no infringement on the showing of vehicles in judging classes. A lot of people enjoy seeing these vehicles.

If members enjoy showing their vehicles in these classes, AND if having these classes does not prevent fully restored vehicles from being shown, AND if these classes are not a sneaky way to get "modified" vehicles on the field (which has never been the case), what is the point of your complaint?????????

Will DPC vehicles be trailered to meets? Yes in some cases. There will be prople that will trailer their cars no matter what. If the meet is a great distance and the car is really old (not talking about a late vintage antique - how about that for doublespeak) yes it may be trailered. I'm planned to drive the '27 Marmon to Birmingham (approximately 100 miles) to show in DPC, but if I also show it in DPC in Florida (approximately 500 miles) it will be trailered. So what is the point????????

[R W Burgess]

There's all good "points", Ron! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Thanks Ron. I too can see trailered DPC cars. As Terry said earlier, some of these cars are very close to show class, so naturally, even though they're in the DPC class the owners may be leaning toward a full restoration in the future and not want any road rash to ruin what's already been freshened up. Sorry about the long sentence. <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> Wayne

PS. Darn Spellcheck! <img src="http://www.aaca.org/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Steve Moskowitz]

Wayne, I will never be too busy to answer questions and comments where appropriate. The esteemed Mr. Barnett has done a great job in answering this thread. The facts are, that if a member registers his/her car in time and correctly I can not think of a case where we would not find room for the vehicle.

This is a personal comment and does not speak for the board or the club. I do not think that AACA can focus on a narrow range of classes and survive. We must look at the needs of our members and respond accordingly. HPOF and DPC were rational manifestations of answering to the needs of the majority of the club. No, we do not have to be all things to all people but as a club, we must answer to the ever changing landscape of the hobby. If you do not find ways to appeal to more customers you eventually perish.

The beauty of this hobby is that you can pick and choose what you want to become involved in. I am mostly a brass-car guy but I sure enjoy seeing the more modern stuff. Desperately trying to buy a suitable car for touring as I want to get active on that side of our club's activities. HPOF knocks my socks off occasionally with a highly unusual un-restored car. DPC could be a great first step towards someone getting involved in a restoration for show or touring. Not everyone has the financial ability to "jump right in" to this activity. The other thing is that cars are suppose to be driven, this class allows it. Long story short, I think this is a case of "no harm, no foul" and AACA will always be able to accomodate member's cars.

Thanks Ron for getting involved!

[66 Mystery Chevelle]

Boy, if I were a better typist, I would have said all that..Thanks Steve and Ron

Can never make people happy is what it comes down to IMO.. When ya got a fully restored show car, the peanut gallery says..."Oh trailer queen..." "oh start driving it" Then ya got the bunch that says..."Car showing isn't about the $3 trophies, it's about the hobby and the friends" or you have guys that won't join a Club b/c they think their cars aren't "GOOD ENOUGH "...You can't make everyone happy, but I applaude The powers to be for trying...

Times they are changin...Thank God!!

[Guest boettger]

I think that the DPC Class is one of the better ideas that AACA has explored!

Not all cars owned by AACA members are near 400 point show cars.

Both of my cars are DRIVERS. I attend AACA Meets and like to be involved.

Don't want to take up space in the regular judging classes.

The drivers class gets the "Non-Show" cars out of the class parking area making

the judging teams jobs easier. No need to sort through which cars are to be judged.

At both of the shows that I have shown the Met in DPC, the DPC class was quite busy with people looking at the unrestored areas of these cars to see the original features.

And, yes the cars will probably be trailered to the show.

Anyone that has tried to drive a Metropolitan over 100 miles will probably agree with this concept. After about 60 miles the seats feel like a park bench (That vibrates). If it rains, you get wet in the convertible.

The 1930 DeSoto, even though not restored to AACA Standards is a driver and a fine car, but the ole' straight 8 and tall gears are not really up to long distance highway driving. (Engine parts for this thing are becoming rare).

So it comes to out of town shows on the trailer.

In my opinion,DPC is the one small item that will help build interest in the hobby and AACA Meets.

[poci1957]

I also think the DPC class is a very good step to open up AACA to more people, and Steve has excellent points to make. I also think if there is overbooking a show car should bump HPOF or DPC, HOWEVER I think this is unlikely, and having too many cars is an optimistic problem to have. I think we should worry more about not having enough (except at Hershey, but even THAT may change soon). The DPC can also help motivate more people to participate that have been staying away from judging for whatever reason(s). Will this make Hershey a daytime cruise-in? I don't know, I would hope the show cars would still be the primary focus, and that modifications would be severely discouraged, but I think there is a place for this class. Todd C

[ronbarn]

Todd and several of you have made a very good point about the interest for new members. Just yesterday I had a call from a friend who is in a nearby club which is mostly street rodders. He has a couple of very nice Jags and wanted to know if there is a place for them in AACA. I told him about Class 25, but when I mentioned the HPOF and DPC class, his interest changed considerably. Short story is that he said he would join AACA immediately and probably show at least one of his cars in Birmingham. I guess that is the point!!!!!!!

[66 Mystery Chevelle]

Me too Ron...a few days ago.. two friends of mine from the National Chevelle Club ( ACES ) e-mailed me b/c they just finished a 68 Chevelle SS and a 70 Chevelle SS...both cars are done to EXACT factory specs. and they wanted to know more about the "Club" I mention every now and then..."That Antique car thing" and so I told them about AACA and dispelled best I could, the myths, ( though the myths are reality in fact ) they had. Like most 30 something and 40 something guys, they thought AACA was just all Pre war and Old cars.., non muscle cars.... They just sent in their applications and hope to bring these cars to MD show this June!!

My point...we have to continue to encourage all car owners to JOIN, the AACA's focus on the YOUNG is a good one...but IMHO...Not Kids...but the young adults, the guys who grew up in the era of 60's and 70's, building and driving these cars and who are now able to afford and recapture their youth gone by!

The day we have to worry about too many cars.. is the day we have to THINK about another venue IMO. until then, bring em on!

Mike

[Guest]

Mike ~ Bless you for your comment on the fact that we need to cultivate the 30 & 40 year old group of car enthusiasts. These are our immediate and long term future, and not as some would have us believe, THE KIDDIE CORPS.

The 30 & 40 year olds are there because THEY want to be. The little kids are there because their parents, and often the grandparents, want them to be there for whatever reason, including baby sitting. I wonder how many of those 10-12 year olds actually say, "Gee mommie, I want to go to an old car show and learn about old cars."

hvs

[Guest my3buicks]

I take my 69 Electra Conv and put it in this class because it gives me the option of showing a car but not having to take the time to get it "ready" for point judging on the showfield. It would easily 2nd or 3rd Junior. If I want to do the "Point Show" thing I take my 67 Buick Senior Car. I wasn't sure about this class at first, but now I love it. I might actually break down and do the "show" thing this spring with the 67 again, would like to get it's 10th preservation.

[1937hd45]

Ron,Since Model T Ford speedsters are banned from AACA National events, (both original survivors and made yesterday replicas)can they be shown in the DPC area? How about the Interstate Batteries "Great Race" speedsters of all eras?

[ronbarn]

Good question Bob, unfortunately I cannot give you a definitive answer. As I understand the rules there is some allowance for some modifications, such as AC units and radial tires, etc. but I do not know just how many modifications are allowed before the car is ineligible. Maybe the VP Class Judging or the Chairman of the DPC Team will respond to this.

[Guest]

DPC chairman, possibly. The VP of Class Judging, not likely. He hasn't responded to any other questions about judging on here.

hvs

[66 Mystery Chevelle]

Sloooowwww deeep breaths Howard...slow and deep

Ron, we were doing so good too

[Guest]

Mike ~ I offer no apologies for picking on the VP - Class Judging. Someone has to do something to either get him to do his job or get out. I will publicize his failures wherever the exist. If he wants to get rid of me, then all he has to do is answer the member's questions, and I will go away.

Until then, I'm breathing deeply as instructed.

hvs

[Terry Bond]

Hey Bob, didn't know Model T speedsters were "banned." I admit there aren't many that show up, but I can recall having seen some on occasion. Generally speaking we think of a Model T speedster as being something created from today's Rootlieb catalog. But, as you know, in it's day, the Model T chassis was an item that could be purchased bare and you could add any body you wanted -depot hack, c-cab truck, etc. I've got a wonderful collection of early auto accessory catalogs from the teens and most of them have special Ford sections and they generally include truck and speedster or race-about bodies. What would be the difference between something like a Model T bodied with a custom speedster body and a custom bodied Rolls Royce (now don't get silly and try to compare Model T's and Rolls Royces...) The AACA Judging Manual specifies as an exception to the non-authentic body rule "This includes the duplication of a "first body" supplied by a recognized outside source to a vehicle that was originally offered as "Chassis Only." Of course the burden of proof lies with the owner and his documentation, but that seems to me to leave the door wide open to an authentic period Model T speedster. Whatchya think?

Terry

[1937hd45]

Terry,We could hijack this thread with the T speedster banning topic. NOTE: When I use the term "T speedster" I'm referring to a body built in that era by an aftermarket body company, Mercury, Ames, Morton & Brett, etc. NOT a home built or a current reproduction. How many T depot hacks with AACA ovals do you think existed in the T era? Most came out of a cabinet shop in mid America over the past 30 years. A past AACA President has a nice Mercury bodied speedster on a Chevy chassis (very rare)and he couldn't show it,and another AACA National President restored an Ames bodied speedster. If you want to see one you have to visit a museum or a private collection.

[Guest]

Bob ~ Unless my memory fails me, Pinky's Mercury bodied Chevrolet speedster has been shown and judged at at least one national meet. It had the mandatory 40 point deduction taken for "Non authentic body" which is correct. Again my memory may be faulty, but I think it got a 2nd or 3rd because it was good enough to score the necessary points even with the 40 point deduction. Everything about the car other than the body was authentic.

Not to open a can of worms, but this differs from a hot rod in that most hot rods are non authentic in areas other than just the body.

A T Depot Hack, in my opinion, differs from the Mercury bodied speedster in that the body of a depot hack would be non authentic only if you could not buy a bodyless engine and chassis from Ford on which to mount a commercial body of non Ford manufacture. There is nothing commercial about the speedster body, but there is about the depot hack body.

I haven't been VP of Class Judging for 17 years, or on the judging committee for at least 8 or 10, but the above is my understanding of the situation. There may have been changes and it would be a great help if the current VP of Class Judging would come on here and clarify the issue. It is doubtful that he will.

hvs

[DaveBerg]

While it has now been several years since I have served as VP Class Judging. Though I still do serve on the judging committee. The Chevrolet in question has definately been shown and judged. I recall once as a field judge having to take the 40 point mandatory deduction for the incorrect body. If I recall properly the balance of the vehicle recieved very little deduction and the car did win an award, albeit not a 1st junior. Model T Speedsters to the best of my knowledge are not banned. They also have been shown, judged and recieved the 40 point mandatory deduction for incorrect body (or at least should have). The T Depot Hack with the replica Siverson wood bodies are permitted as authentic vehicles. Yes this was not a "Ford" built body but it was a recognized body that appeared in new vehicle ads at the time, combined with the fact that these vehicles could be purchased in chassis only form. These are all old policies that were created long prior to my entering the judging portion of the hobby. Some of them do tend to lead to contoversy from time to time. If you have ideas on what should or shouldnt be you need to write to the VP Class Judging so that these ideas can be looked at formally by the judging committee at an upcoming meeting. I assure each of you that your judging committee will consider your ideas. No promises as to outcome as i am only one member but a sure promise of consideration.

[R W Burgess]

Thank you Dave. I think that clears up a lot of questions. Wayne