I could just scream

[dibarlaw]

The line Joe Flynn used as Captain Binghampton in 1960s McHale's Navy TV show is applicable.

Working to keep both of my 1925 Buicks as reliable runners/drivers has been quite a chore.

Everything all dialed in and being happy. Then what ever I did to enhance appearance or a overdue mechanical renue causes a downgrade in performance.

 I am trying to get the car ready for a 200 mile round trip tour.

 The latest idle issue was taken care of with a riser overhaul. Good and steady now with a steady 19" VU. But! I am still burning those expensive points. Changing coils, changing condensers not solving the problem.  Friend Hugh related the issues he was experiencing with a 1927 he is sorting out with the generator overcharging. He needed to adjust the 3rd brush to get output to about 6.6 volts. On my car the burning of points and tracking in the cap indicate too high voltage. Service Manual does not go into what output for voltage should be. Infomation stating that 18 ampers as high current limit for a higher speed driving as the only reference. Checking my Starter/Generator output at a warm fast idle (checking to chassis ground) was Horn... 7.8V, S/G ammeter lead.... 8.5V, S/G lead to coil....7.5V, S/G lead to power switch... 8.9V. Hoping to get things down to Hughs 6.6V output. This was after I turned the 3rd brush adjustment to it's limt (Adjustment to be done against the shaft rotation direction.) I spent another 1/2 hour trying different positions but that was the lowest I could get it down to. Maybe brushes were too worn.

Before getting into that I brought out several of my spare #283 Starter Generators I had. Working thru them to see if I could change out to better brushes with the S/G still in place. All brushes in the car's unit did not seem to be excessivly worn but I wanted to try something. I was able to change lower gen brush and 3rd brush (shunt) both were a bit smaller in thickness and not DELCO marked. The top gen brush was the same size as what I had to replace it with so I left it. My replacements were less worn by 1/4 inch in length. After some fitting and warm run in setting adjuster about mid way as I had seen on one of my undisturbed spare S/G. Test again..... Now it is putting out more voltage! Adjusted down as recomended. Shunt voltage terminal (3rd brush) 3.35V. Out to switch ..9.1V. Out to coil..7.5V. Out to ammeter... 8.8V. Also check at horn 8.8V. As I would check on the 3 main output points on the S/G my meter readings would vary up or down by a volt or more.

 I could just scream!

Edited June 27 by dibarlaw
spelling (see edit history)

[dibarlaw]

Just performed the same checks on my 1925 Master. (Remley) Looks to have adjustment to stop.

5.3-6.5V at ammeter terminal

3.9-5.5V at coil trerminal

7.5-7.85V at terminal to ignition switch (#2)

3.5-4.9V at terminal of 3rd brush

5.9-6.5 at horn

 I considered this car going on the tour instead of my Standard (Beulah) so I took him for a 13 mile loop around Franklin Co. Seemed to run OK with speed up to 50 MPH. Most of the trip between 35-40 MPH. 25lbs. oil pressure and 10 Amp charge. After about 7 miles out the engine was stumbling a bit on the way back. Accompanied by some new uncomfortable sounds. Keeping speed to around 40 MPH the engine was somewhat quiet again. Back in the garage, signs of the engine blowing oil out of the road draft tube. Also a good trickle of oil pouring from the rear of the engine.

 I could just scream.......... At least I am able to say I have over 100 miles on him since I got him back on the road.

[Bloo]

Third brush generators of that period are not voltage regulated... at all. They don't specify what the voltage will be because nobody knows.

 

You can adjust current only with a third brush, and the generator will try to maintain that current no matter what. It can't always do it. There is a curve, more or less a bell curve, related to generator speed. If you are going slower or faster than "ideal" you will get somewhat less current than the setting.

 

Since the generator will be charging full bore as often as it can, 6 or 7 Amps might be more like it for a third brush setting, for sure not 18. A typical car battery cannot take 18 amps indefinitely. Also, prior to 1934(?) or so, generators do not cool well enough to charge that hard without burning up. There is often no ventilation or fan.

 

If you are set at say 7 amps, and no lights on, the generator will charge at 8 amps until the battery is full, and then it will keep charging at 8 amps. Since this energy can no longer charge the battery it has to go somewhere, and it gets dissipated as heat in the battery, meanwhile the voltage keeps rising. The battery is the only thing holding it back, and it can only do so much to hold it back. Yes it probably hits 8 volts or more, too much for the battery. Cars were hard on batteries.

 

If you are set at 7 amps, and the headlights draw more than that, the battery will slowly go dead. If you set it high enough to cover the headlights, it will overcharge badly in the daytime. Some folks used to run headlights in the daytime to combat it if they knew the battery was full. Lots of kludges were done over the years to make this less bad.

 

One thing seen it a lot of old Delco generators is a thermal switch and a resistor in the field circuit. You start out with a setting that would be way too high, like 14 amps or something, and when the generator starts to overheat (and it will because there is no ventilation), the switch opens and the resistor is now in series with the field, cutting the charge rate way back. In practice, this sort of mimics a modern car with regulation, charging a lot at first replacing the energy the starter used, and then cutting back. Unlike a modern car, it was not tied in any way to the actual state of charge in the battery, but better than nothing.

 

A few years later, Chevrolet set things up so the resistor was normally in the field circuit, and the current was at 6-8 amps or so, then when you turned on the lights, a contact shorted out the resistor and the generator charged more. It was supposed to offset the current drawn by the lights. A huge improvement because now the car charged approximately the same (from the battery's view) day and night. Chevrolet also gave you a half-click in the light switch so that the driver could manually switch the generator to high without turning the lights on if he knew his battery was low. This is actually kind of brilliant, but still not like having a voltage regulator.

 

The next thing that happened was to add a voltage regulator, but keep the third brush for current regulation. Buick did this in the mid 30s. At that point you can set voltage.

 

Back to the matter at hand, I think you are going to have to run a much lower current setting at the third brush. Way down might be a good place to start. Trying to track voltage on a system like that is like throwing darts in the wind. Set the current.

 

EDIT:

  

On 6/27/2024 at 9:25 AM, dibarlaw said:

Shunt voltage terminal (3rd brush) 3.35V. Out to switch ..9.1V. Out to coil..7.5V. Out to ammeter... 8.8V. Also check at horn 8.8V. As I would check on the 3 main output points on the S/G my meter readings would vary up or down by a volt or more.

 

Re reading your post, do you mean that the third brush voltage was 3.55V to ground while the output was over 8 volts to ground?! If so, I think I would disable the third brush entirely and see if it still charges. It shouldn't.

 

 

Edited July 5 by Bloo (see edit history)

[dibarlaw]

Thank you for the great explanation Bloo.

 Again the reason for investigating output was because the points were seeing too high a voltage and burning often.

 About the same time an overcurrent took out my headlamps and spot lamp. (Poor connection to the coil from the Starter Generator.)Tail, dash, cowl, and brake lights still worked. Testing current draw of the 1133 headlight bulbs were drawing just about 6 amps.

[dibarlaw]

3 hours ago, Bloo said:

Third brush generators of that period are not voltage regulated... at all. They don't specify what the voltage will be because nobody knows.

 

You can adjust current only with a third brush, and the generator will try to maintain that current no matter what. It can't always do it. There is a curve, more or less a bell curve, related to generator speed. If you are going slower or faster than "ideal" you will get somewhat less current than the setting.

 

Since the generator will be charging full bore as often as it can, 6 or 7 Amps might be more like it for a third brush setting, for sure not 18. A typical car battery cannot take 18 amps indefinitely. Also, prior to 1934(?) or so, generators do not cool well enough to charge that hard without burning up. There is often no ventilation or fan.

 

If you are set at say 7 amps, and no lights on, the generator will charge at 8 amps until the battery is full, and then it will keep charging at 8 amps. Since this energy can no longer charge the battery it has to go somewhere, and it gets dissipated as heat in the battery, meanwhile the voltage keeps rising. The battery is the only thing holding it back, and it can only do so much to hold it back. Yes it probably hits 8 volts or more, too much for the battery. Cars were hard on batteries.

 

If you are set at 7 amps, and the headlights draw more than that, the battery will slowly go dead. If you set it high enough to cover the headlights, it will overcharge badly in the daytime. Some folks used to run headlights in the daytime to combat it if they knew the battery was full. Lots of kludges were done over the years to make this less bad.

 

One thing seen it a lot of old Delco generators is a thermal switch and a resistor in the field circuit. You start out with a setting that would be way too high, like 14 amps or something, and when the generator starts to overheat (and it will because there is no ventilation), the switch opens and the resistor is now in series with the field, cutting the charge rate way back. In practice, this sort of mimics a modern car with regulation, charging a lot at first replacing the energy the starter used, and then cutting back. Unlike a modern car, it was not tied in any way to the actual state of charge in the battery, but better than nothing.

 

A few years later, Chevrolet set things up so the resistor was normally in the field circuit, and the current was at 6-8 amps or so, then a when you turned on the lights, a contact shorted out the resistor and the generator charged more. It was supposed to offset the current drawn by the lights. A huge improvement because now the car charged approximately the same (from the battery's view) day and night. Chevrolet also gave you a half-click in the light switch so that the driver could manually switch the generator to high without turning the lights on if he knew his battery was low. This is actually kind of brilliant, but still not like having a voltage regulator.

 

The next thing that happened was to add a voltage regulator, but keep the third brush for current regulation. Buick did this in the mid 30s. At that point you can set voltage.

 

Back to the matter at hand, I think you are going to have to run a much lower current setting at the third brush. Way down might be a good place to start. Trying to track voltage on a system like that is like throwing darts in the wind. Set the current.

 

EDIT:

  

 

Re reading your post, do you mean that the third brush voltage was 3.55V to ground while the output was over 8 volts to ground?! If so, I think I would disable the third brush entirely and see if it still charges. It shouldn't.

 

 

Bloo:

 I will do so and see what happens since I have been throwing darts in the wind anyway. This started out as just a simple adjustment to be made. No rest for the wicked....back out to the garage.

 Thanks again for your input about my output!

Edited June 27 by dibarlaw
Added content (see edit history)

[Hubert_25-25]

Larry, 

     I was interested in this problem when I first read about it a couple years ago.  My car was not running at the time but I was seeing good reviews regarding adding a voltage regulator to the generator.  I think I probably need to order one of these myself.  Hugh 

 

 

[dibarlaw]

Mark Shaw just recommended a ballast resistor could be used.

Mark:

 Thanks for the suggestion. We have considered this. Since the ignition set up is exactly the same as in your 1924.

 On the original coil the resistance unit on the spool at the end + terminal. According to the Service manual this is only used to keep the ignition system protected in case the circuit is closed for an extended period of time without the engine being run.

 An internal ballast resistor was indicated on some of the modern coils I had installed. Some marked INTERNAL RESISTANCE or do not use external resistance. 

 

 Most of the coils I have tried Including the big Mallory on the Right rear.

Points' sets and condensers. Some originals and some new. When buying at an auto parts store I was trying to get a 6 Volt 6 cyl. application which was usually one for a 1950 Chevy. 

 My S/G output is now the lowest setting possible. Still over 8V on several terminals and the #2 switch contact lead was over 9V.  After cleaning and readjusting my points, I did a 3-mile drive to the gas station to fill up for a 200-mile tour tomorrow. The car ran beautifully! I pulled into the garage and checked voltages again after my run. Ammeter was showing a 4 amp charge rate. All voltages about the same as before and engine idle was running erratically again. I checked and the points were already showing a burned spot. 

 What is important to know is what voltage should be seen at the points? Today it was between 4.5 and 5.5V. So, I could calculate what my ballast value should be.   I will keep at it.

 Thank you.

 

 

Edited June 28 by dibarlaw
spelling (see edit history)

[Motorpirate]

On 6/27/2024 at 4:13 PM, dibarlaw said:

Thank you for the great explanation Bloo.

 Again the reason for investigating output was because the points were seeing too high a voltage and burning often.

 About the same time an overcurrent took out my headlamps and spot lamp. (Poor connection to the coil from the Starter Generator.)Tail, dash, cowl, and brake lights still worked. Testing current draw of the 1133 headlight bulbs were drawing just about 6 amps.

Add a ballast resistor?

[EmTee]

17 hours ago, dibarlaw said:

Today it was between 4.5 and 5.5V.

That seems good to me.  What type of condenser are you using?  Is there evidence of oil vapor in the distributor?  Are the point contacts pitted or just black?

[Terry Wiegand]

Larry, I can most definitely feel your pain in this situation.  When I was putting our D-45 back together it was the Marvel Carburetor that had me just about ready to cry on several occasions.  If it had not been for Luke Chennell I would still be trying to get that engine started.  As I have been told many times, there is a simple explanation for a lot of these mechanical problems.  Doesn't make it any easier though.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

AACA Life Member #947918

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

1 hour ago, Terry Wiegand said:

Larry, I can most definitely feel your pain in this situation.  When I was putting our D-45 back together it was the Marvel Carburetor that had me just about ready to cry on several occasions.  If it had not been for Luke Chennell I would still be trying to get that engine started.  As I have been told many times, there is a simple explanation for a lot of these mechanical problems.  Doesn't make it any easier though.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

AACA Life Member #947918

 

  Those "simple"  answers sure can be elusive.

 

  Ben

[Brian_Heil]

I have to run a halogen spot light + cowl lights plus tail light to absorb 12 amps leaving 1 amp continuous to the battery on my lowest 3rd brush setting going down the road. 

 

Best solution I’ve found

 

1923 has a ballast resistor to cut voltage across the points. Never had a points issue

 

My recurring issue is carbon tracking inside the distributor cap causing erratic firing.  I have to clean the cap every few hundred miles.  

[EmTee]

5 minutes ago, Brian_Heil said:

 I have to clean the cap every few hundred miles.  

Do you see evidence of crankcase vapor entering the distributor?  I wonder whether condensed vapor might be responsible for carbon tracking inside the cap.

[Brian_Heil]

9 minutes ago, EmTee said:

Do you see evidence of crankcase vapor entering the distributor?  I wonder whether condensed vapor might be responsible for carbon tracking inside the cap.

No vapor as the distributor is remote and run off a right angle gear set out on the water pump jack shaft right in front of the starter generator.  Let me see if I have a pic. 

[Brian_Heil]

[dibarlaw]

raydurr has posted a similar isuue description 1929 Buick Overcharging, Add A Voltage Regulator?

I added to his post and hope we can come up with a solution together

.resistor placement

 The fixes others recomended included a ballast resistor but did not suggest a placement in the circuit. My system has no regulating device save for the not very effective 3rd brush. Even internet schematics for "Vintage 6 volt Systems" suggested resistor placement that would not work for my situation. (1930s-1950s systems) Part of my unit is to "motor" slowly with the ignition switch ON. I had set the 1.6 ohm resistor between the + side of the coil to the switch lead as recomended. Tried to start but the unit no longer motored. Luckily I was able to catch a spot on the flywheel and the engine reluctantly started. (Prior the engine would start with barely a revolution.) The voltages seemed in a better range. But voltage at the points were in the 4V range. But now my ammeter pegged on the charge side. If I bumped the dash the needle would return to about 3 amp. Tried to start again-did not want to start and no motoring. In disgust I returned to the previous connections. It motored and started instantly, the driving charge rate is at 3-4 amps. But when started, ammeter needle still pegs and sticks untill I give the dash a bump which returns it to 3-4 amps.

 I hope this provokes some thoughts as to our problems.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Larry, I am not familiar with a 1929.   Is this a stand alone generator, not integrated with anything else, such as water pump?  If so, perhaps bite the bullet and install a 6V alternator.  They are readily available, probably even in a generator look alike.

 

  Wonder how Bill McLaughlin keeps his working?

 

  Ben

[Daves1940Buick56S]

Larry:

 

Could you send me a schematic for your electrical system? I want to think about your issue.

 

Thanks Dave

[Bloo]

I would also like to see it.

 

 

[Hubert_25-25]

Larry, 

     I could kick myself.  A couple years back I did research this issue and the answer was a Voltage Regulator that James Peterson was selling.  These are no longer available.  Upon a lot of digging this week, I did come up with the following.

https://modeltstarters.com/product/6v-model-t-voltage-regulator-no-ford-script/

There is also a long back story to the development of this voltage regulator.  I am including this link for those that want to really dig into this issue. 

https://www.mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=25609&sid=8536f8949858a5794f85a9564faefcae&start=100

So this should be a straight forward application.  I did not see installation instructions so hopefully it is pretty straightforward to install. 

Adding a few circuits drawings and photos to help with understanding of where to make the connections.   Hugh

 

 

Edited July 6 by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)

[dibarlaw]

On 6/28/2024 at 11:52 AM, dibarlaw said:

Mark Shaw just recommended a ballast resistor could be used.

Mark:

 Thanks for the suggestion. We have considered this. Since the ignition set up is exactly the same as in your 1924.

 On the original coil the resistance unit on the spool at the end + terminal. According to the Service manual this is only used to keep the ignition system protected in case the circuit is closed for an extended period of time without the engine being run.

 An internal ballast resistor was indicated on some of the modern coils I had installed. Some marked INTERNAL RESISTANCE or do not use external resistance. 

 

 Most of the coils I have tried Including the big Mallory on the Right rear.

Points' sets and condensers. Some originals and some new. When buying at an auto parts store I was trying to get a 6 Volt 6 cyl. application which was usually one for a 1950 Chevy. 

 My S/G output is now the lowest setting possible. Still over 8V on several terminals and the #2 switch contact lead was over 9V.  After cleaning and readjusting my points, I did a 3-mile drive to the gas station to fill up for a 200-mile tour tomorrow. The car ran beautifully! I pulled into the garage and checked voltages again after my run. Ammeter was showing a 4 amp charge rate. All voltages about the same as before and engine idle was running erratically again. I checked and the points were already showing a burned spot. 

 What is important to know is what voltage should be seen at the points? Today it was between 4.5 and 5.5V. So, I could calculate what my ballast value should be.   I will keep at it.

 Thank you.

 

 

Along with what Hugh posted this was what I posted on June 28th.

 

On 7/5/2024 at 9:28 AM, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

Larry, I am not familiar with a 1929.   Is this a stand alone generator, not integrated with anything else, such as water pump?  If so, perhaps bite the bullet and install a 6V alternator.  They are readily available, probably even in a generator look alike.

 

  Wonder how Bill McLaughlin keeps hi s working?

 

  Ben

Ben our 1925 cars are set up like this as the Sarter/Generator/distributer is all driven by the timing gear through the water pump shaft.

My problem child 1925 Standard/

My somwhat electrically cooperative 1925 Master

 

 

[Oldtech]

29 is a stand alone generator and should have the thermal switch and shunt in the field as Bloo describes, If it's overcharging that's where I'd look. 

They are , of coure a pain to deal with as the distributor drives off the back so if you pull it you mess the timing. Also have to remove the water pump to get it off. All quite doable but time consuming. 

[ModelTStarters]

On 7/6/2024 at 9:04 AM, Hubert_25-25 said:

 

https://modeltstarters.com/product/6v-model-t-voltage-regulator-no-ford-script/

There is also a long back story to the development of this voltage regulator.  I am including this link for those that want to really dig into this issue. 

https://www.mtfca.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=25609&sid=8536f8949858a5794f85a9564faefcae&start=100

Hugh

 

I’m the guy making these. I have several questions about these generators you guys are using in your cars. If someone vet knowledgeable about them could give me a call, it’s POSSIBLE that my voltage regulator might work on these cars. 
 

Jeff Stevenson 

two 0 eight 800-2691

jeff@modetstarters.com

Edited July 7 by ModelTStarters (see edit history)

[Daves1940Buick56S]

Larry:

OK, I have been working through this. After rereading your post, it seems there are two issues:
1. Points are burning
2. Charging at too high a rate

 

As to number 1:
Has it always been this way? Or not enough time to know?
Anyhow, although I am sure you have done this, make sure the capacitor is good and the ground connection to the cap is good.

In the following drawing, the wire going from Term 3 of the switch to Term 3 of the coil is Wire 1.
The wire going from Term 3 of the coil to Term 3 of the gen is Wire 2.

Then, to have control over the current to the coil without interfering with the charging system, looking at the attached drawing, move the wire connection of Wire 1 at the coil end (Term 3) to shunt winding connection (Term 3) of the gen.
Now you can put in resistance in the line to the coil (wire 2) without messing with the charging circuit. Try the 1.6 ohms and see with the voltage at the coil is with points closed.

 

As to number 2:
I read about the 3rd brush current adjusting system. It is a kludge to be sure. If the 3rd brush adjustment is at minimum (brush at furthest point from the gen brush) and the amperage is still too high, then one way to adjust the current going through the shunt wire is to put additional resistance between the gen Term 3 and Wires 1 and 2. This will have to be done experimentally.

The resistor is going to have to be beefy in terms of power, like 100 watts, and low resistance, like 0 to 2 ohms. You will have have to have a bypass switch to cut out the resistor when starting to motor the gen or when your lights are on. There are Ohmite resistors on Ebay that will fulfill these requirements.  Links below.

Of course, this assumes your target current is about 4 amps at prescribed RPM (1800?) with a maximum output at higher revs of about 20 amps. If my assumptions are wrong, I will have to revise the resistor sizing.

 

Anyhow, I have more questions but maybe I can come up there and help you out. We can talk to figure out a day.

Cheers, Dave

https://www.ebay.com/itm/256547289430?itmmeta=01J2543XQM36QCZTYA5BA2DW8V&hash=item3bbb68f956:g:gIsAAOSwA9JmcbVa&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA0DNgYVxpZnEOpJwlCByqtMbhkHDYVn%2FZM6pYDCQL8WJXNP2eJL5LV8Rz1W9elepU0YC1vXlz65oPKfc3KzTxVyuhTyBn3V5eBrU3uu6lYdllPlkkqUAi5vxOw%2Fu1ExQXNU6mAmfxx3EmLIxszRaWuOa3wrgTC7U7JRRFCii5KLkqbH9U%2Bh%2BLiuuuItsKNG8tFhIsZR3Y%2FD7j6X5U5vJT5Jgpg5lE6jkUN194bzeAUVkgsXSBvutROukXqO1BeY6QeiPzldeDlEMfrOd84HBsE6o%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR_jbj6SRZA

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/195641966992?itmmeta=01J287CV7JCN495RSM37QRPQ1X&hash=item2d8d2b8190:g:gKEAAOSw4CJkBoUI&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA0Bzq%2FgjSS%2FrwqsMfKBpDcB4crP45%2FjRZww2GHHvEpxYm%2BTod%2FvRI1s%2F6rCrndHDXbWOj3sikV6hpIdEKlVbR%2F%2Bx5Ul2lJwEhcdA5L1El7ZTCyu84LGxK6VDj0VeMPb4cyC0ZmRBtMFVn8KECKhUwM0uUGs%2Bhn%2BwLbD6fTbt4bjzdOI1AOXMecL0iIjOL%2F80IO533ZCLXeY%2BqO9A%2FXe85xn0cMY0zjGGkUfZ1xDsPO6oUM5kFCLT9RzSfvt0%2B0HgmkdYC7H57VecwwjpvKV57XzI%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR_Czs4eSZA

 

Edited July 8 by Daves1940Buick56S (see edit history)

[Bloo]

@Daves1940Buick56S is spot on. ^^

[dibarlaw]

Thank you so much Dave for your expertiese.

Sorry that we have not connected for a while.

Many have noted to insert a "KNOWN GOOD" condenser.  I have purchased the condensers from BOB"s in the past..... Burned points..... Bought the best as opposed to the standard quality at auto parts store.  Usually a 6V, 6 cyl application. 

The device I have been using to get some sort of reading. I know the condensers need to be tested under load for breakdown and leakage. Back when I taught Small Gas Engines I had the King Ignition tester that put the coil and condensers under load for checking.