Chrysler 230 Flathead Rebuild and Oil

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Assuming no vacuum leaks, timing with vacuum is a snap.  Connect the vacuum gauge to an intake manifold source.  Twist the distributor until the most vacuum is found. This will be close. Probably for what you are using it for it will be great.

 

  Ben

[InsideTrader]

36 minutes ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

Assuming no vacuum leaks, timing with vacuum is a snap.  Connect the vacuum gauge to an intake manifold source.  Twist the distributor until the most vacuum is found. This will be close. Probably for what you are using it for it will be great.

 

  Ben

And there is no chance I will destroy the engine or melt my exhaust manifold with this method?    What you are describing sounds a lot like what the YouTube guys said.  From what I understand they describe doing what you said and then doing the same thing with the carb.  Then going back and doing the timing again, then the carb again.  This gives you a pretty good indication you have both tuned reasonably well.  (From what I understand of it anyways)

[InsideTrader]

43 minutes ago, ABear said:

Carb looks brand spanking new or a brand new rebuilt carb.

 

May never been setup correctly and was just stuck on and hope for the best.

 

Not familiar with that carb or if it is correct one for the engine, someone else would have to chime in on that.

 

The lone screw with a spring standing proud at the base of the carb behind the vaccuum port in the one pix most likely is the fuel mixture adjustment. Carb may or may not have high and low speed mixture adjustments.

 

As far as timing goes, I have never had a hesitation caused by wrong timing. But, I suppose it could be possible, most hesitations are lack of fuel caused from carb being too lean (vaccum leaks) or not adjusted. I am not sure if or where Chrysler put timing marks on engines back in those years but typically you will find a series of marks stamped or molded into the front crankshaft dampener pulley. There should also be a small metal "pointer" around the side or top of the dampener pulley.. Timing light will have a connection to plug number one and a pos and neg connection to battery. Start engine and point the the timing light at the crankshaft pulley aiming for the pointer area.. Pull trigger and the light will blink and off with the number one plug spark.. Typically timing is set at idle speed with no vacuum advance connected.

 

You will have to search the web for timing specs for that engine..

 

To adjust the timing, you loosen the retaining bolt holding the distributor from turning slightly (just loose enough you can turn the distributor by hand but not too loose). Once you can turn the distributor you turn it slightly one direction or the other until you reach the timing spec for that engine. The engine idle speed will change as you turn the distributor so you may need to readjust the idle speed when done.

 

As far as the health of your engine rings goes, if the engine isn't blowing blue smoke from exhaust, then the rings are doing a good enough job.

 

Black smoke from the exhaust when accelerating would be a indicator of way to much fuel (overly rich) situation and adjustment to the fuel mixture is needed.

 

Too lean of mixture typically doesn't present any hints at the exhaust side but will typically show up as hard starting when cold or hesitation.

 

The broken distributor advance port could cause a lean condition Vacuum leak), you can plug the vacuum line to see if that helps. Wont hurt just means the distributor can't add more advance than the internal mechanical advance.

Sir, I appreciate the info and help.  I will post my progress as I get stuff figured out and problems solved.

[Rusty_OToole]

4 hours ago, InsideTrader said:

I found a YouTube video of a guy with the same engine and his was hesitating exactly like mine is.  They sounded identical.  His was a timing issue.  He adjusted the timing and solved his issue.  I have never adjusted timing in my life other than on a diesel engine.  I’ve YouTubed it and I know you loosen that screw and twist the distributor but I don’t understand timing light usage nor do I have one.  I’ve also heard of people timing with a vacuum gauge but I don’t feel I have a really good understanding of that either.  I’ve also heard horror stories of guys not timing correctly and either damaging their engine by firing way too soon or running the engine way too hot on the EGTs.  So screwing with the timing makes me nervous.  I was hoping it could be as simple as trial and error and just adjust it until it sounds like it’s running the best.  But I haven’t seen any YouTube videos of guys doing that.  

Chrysler built flatheads have a unique feature that makes timing a cinch. Look on the cylinder head, above the last cylinder, you will find a small pipe plug. If you unscrew this plug, there is a hole above the piston. Drop the point of a screwdriver down the hole and it will hit the piston. Now you can slowly turn the crankshaft until the piston is as high as it goes, that is called Top Dead Center. #6 and #1 piston rise and fall together so you have found the perfect position to set the timing.

 

Now you can pop the distributor cap off and connect a 12 volt test light across the points. Slowly turn the distributor until the light lights up. That means the points just opened. When the points open, the spark plug fires.

 

If you do not have a test light put a cigarette paper between the points and turn the distributor as you gently tug on the paper. When it slips free the points are open.

 

This method eliminates the crankshaft pointer and timing marks which on some cars, can slip out of place over the years.

 

You can use a wire in place of a screwdriver but bend a loop in the top so it can't fall into the cylinder.

 

What I described is the factory setting of TDC or Top Dead Center. If you feel ambitious you can give it a little extra advance for better power and performance. This is where the vacuum gauge comes in.

Edited March 18 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[ABear]

8 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said:

What I described is the factory setting of TDC or Top Dead Center. If you feel ambitious you can give it a little extra advance for better power and performance. This is where the vacuum gauge comes in.

"Adding" extra timing makes the spark happen faster Before Top Dead Center (BTDC), in some cases can often results in a bit more power and performance depending on the total spark advance curve between the mechanical advance and the vacuum advance.

 

Rusty_OTooles method gets you to initial timing setting of TDC and using a vacuum gauge can help you peak the initial timing by peaking the max vacuum at idle, but there are limits as to how much you can take that depending on the spark advance. Too much initial advance timing can result in pinging under load or acceleration as the spark advance also adds more timing.

 

I did find a tune up chart for 46-64 which might be helpful.

 

https://www.tpocr.com/Chry.html

[InsideTrader]

8 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said:

Chrysler built flatheads have a unique feature that makes timing a cinch. Look on the cylinder head, above the last cylinder, you will find a small pipe plug. If you unscrew this plug, there is a hole above the piston. Drop the point of a screwdriver down the hole and it will hit the piston. Now you can slowly turn the crankshaft until the piston is as high as it goes, that is called Top Dead Center. #6 and #1 piston rise and fall together so you have found the perfect position to set the timing...

How do you feel about the timing method Ben Bruce aka First Born described above?  It seems easy enough even I could do it. 

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Inside, what I described is a basic!   The engine will run near perfect .  NOW, tweaking time.     First. a disclaimer.  I KNOW, OR REMEMBER, LITTLE ABOUT THOSE ENGINES.    The distributor rotates different on different engines.    For instance, on straight eight Buicks it rotates counter clockwise.  SO , turning the distributor CLOCKWIES advances the time.    After adjusting for maximum vacuum, try advancing the timing slightly!  Moving the distributor housing maybe 1/8th inch. Lock it down and go for a drive.  Better? Worse?   Only YOU can tell.  If better and no "pinging" when accelerating, you have gained.  If pinging, a sound that sound not unlike a woodpecker,  reverse the last adjustment slightly.  Drive again.   Make these adjustments until you are satisfied.  Or just plain say to heck with it , that is good.  

 

  You are not going to hurt the engine with adjustments.  If the timing is to fast, causing pinging,  which is  the spark firing too soon,  long term, damage may/will occur. If pinging does happen, come of the throttle.  It goes away. 

 

  Ben

[InsideTrader]

6 minutes ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

Inside, what I described is a basic!   The engine will run near perfect .  NOW, tweaking time.     First. a disclaimer.  I KNOW, OR REMEMBER, LITTLE ABOUT THOSE ENGINES.    The distributor rotates different on different engines.    For instance, on straight eight Buicks it rotates counter clockwise.  SO , turning the distributor CLOCKWIES advances the time.    After adjusting for maximum vacuum, try advancing the timing slightly!  Moving the distributor housing maybe 1/8th inch. Lock it down and go for a drive.  Better? Worse?   Only YOU can tell.  If better and no "pinging" when accelerating, you have gained.  If pinging, a sound that sound not unlike a woodpecker,  reverse the last adjustment slightly.  Drive again.   Make these adjustments until you are satisfied.  Or just plain say to heck with it , that is good.  

 

  You are not going to hurt the engine with adjustments.  If the timing is to fast, causing pinging,  which is  the spark firing too soon,  long term, damage may/will occur. If pinging does happen, come of the throttle.  It goes away. 

 

  Ben

Ok, I think I am going to go for it.  It might have to wait until tomorrow but this all sounds doable to me.

[Rusty_OToole]

2 hours ago, InsideTrader said:

How do you feel about the timing method Ben Bruce aka First Born described above?  It seems easy enough even I could do it. 

Either method will work. My method will work even if you have the engine completely apart and have to time it from scratch. Requires no tools except a bit of stiff wire, wrench, and ciggy paper. Bruce's method will give the best performance and is easy to do if you have a vacuum gauge and  IF the engine is close to begin with.

[kramaton]

10 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said:

Chrysler built flatheads have a unique feature that makes timing a cinch. Look on the cylinder head, above the last cylinder, you will find a small pipe plug. If you unscrew this plug, there is a hole above the piston. Drop the point of a screwdriver down the hole and it will hit the piston. Now you can slowly turn the crankshaft until the piston is as high as it goes, that is called Top Dead Center. #6 and #1 piston rise and fall together so you have found the perfect position to set the timing.

 

Now you can pop the distributor cap off and connect a 12 volt test light across the points. Slowly turn the distributor until the light lights up. That means the points just opened. When the points open, the spark plug fires.

 

If you do not have a test light put a cigarette paper between the points and turn the distributor as you gently tug on the paper. When it slips free the points are open.

 

This method eliminates the crankshaft pointer and timing marks which on some cars, can slip out of place over the years.

 

You can use a wire in place of a screwdriver but bend a loop in the top so it can't fall into the cylinder.

 

What I described is the factory setting of TDC or Top Dead Center. If you feel ambitious you can give it a little extra advance for better power and performance. This is where the vacuum gauge comes in.

Just be sure you are on #1 cylinder compression stroke for TDC.  Exhaust stroke the piston will be all the way up also. 

[Rusty_OToole]

1 minute ago, kramaton said:

Just be sure you are on #1 cylinder compression stroke for TDC.  Exhaust stroke the piston will be all the way up also. 

Good point. It won't matter for setting timing but you can check by seeing where the rotor points. If timing an engine from scratch you can remove the #1 spark plug, turn the engine until air wooshes out and you are on the compression stroke. Top of the compression stroke is when the plug fires.

[Frank DuVal]

Interesting, Larry, I thought S meant extended tip, as in the electrodes were further out from the shell. As in you can see porcelain when looking perpendicular to the shell. Maybe they also have the unthreaded part of the shell so it is the same S?

 

 

[InsideTrader]

1 hour ago, Rusty_OToole said:

Good point. It won't matter for setting timing but you can check by seeing where the rotor points. If timing an engine from scratch you can remove the #1 spark plug, turn the engine until air wooshes out and you are on the compression stroke. Top of the compression stroke is when the plug fires.

Since it runs and a vacuum gauge is cheap, I think I’m going to do that method.  I’ll mark the distributor position before I do anything so I can return to my current situation if I screw it all up.

[Larry Schramm]

3 hours ago, Frank DuVal said:

Interesting, Larry, I thought S meant extended tip, as in the electrodes were further out from the shell. As in you can see porcelain when looking perpendicular to the shell. Maybe they also have the unthreaded part of the shell so it is the same S?

 

 

Same, just plant talk.  I spent years in the sparkplug area.  Everything from mold & grind, kiln, shell & wire, print & glaze, and final assembly.

[Rusty_OToole]

If you are in doubt about which direction the distributor rotates, the vacuum advance always points the opposite direction. In other words to advance the timing it pulls the points plate the opposite direction of rotation.

[zepher]

@InsideTrader the wonderfully knowledgeable folks on this site will have you wrenching on that engine and becoming a seasoned Mopar guy in no time!

I think its great that you're willing to try stuff and troubltroubleshoot things even though it may be a little outside of your comfort zone.

[InsideTrader]

On 3/18/2024 at 3:26 PM, zepher said:

@InsideTrader the wonderfully knowledgeable folks on this site will have you wrenching on that engine and becoming a seasoned Mopar guy in no time!

I think its great that you're willing to try stuff and troubltroubleshoot things even though it may be a little outside of your comfort zone.

This forum has been great! Everyone has been super helpful.  That hasn’t always been my experience on other Facebook groups and forums.  I tend to get a lot of “don’t try it if you aren’t a professional” type of comment.  I had a small Diesel engine one time that was locked up.  Water got into the cylinders and pitted them pretty bad.  I was a member of an engine rebuilding Facebook group and started asking questions about the machining operations to rebuild it.  You would have thought I was trying to do brain surgery on my own children with the “don’t you dare” comments I was getting from the group.  Eventually one guy answered my questions.  This forum has been amazing though.

[InsideTrader]

Ok, I made it out to the engine today with a vacuum gauge and at idle I was reading 1.  (I think inch of mercury).  That is not what I was seeing guys get on the internet tuning their mustangs and v8s.  So my question is… what vacuum should I be pulling at idle?  I messed with the mixture screw and saw no change.  The idle screw increased vacuum with RPM.  But I can’t really do that to tune to max vacuum or I’ll be idling at WOT.  I would appreciate any guidance as always gentlemen.  

[Bloo]

If it's idling and you have 1" vacuum, you aren't on a real vacuum port. The distributor port on the carb won't work for this, as it is shut off at idle. Technical term for this is "ported vacuum". You need a port right into the manifold, aka "manifold vacuum".

[InsideTrader]

39 minutes ago, Bloo said:

If it's idling and you have 1" vacuum, you aren't on a real vacuum port. The distributor port on the carb won't work for this, as it is shut off at idle. Technical term for this is "ported vacuum". You need a port right into the manifold, aka "manifold vacuum".

Do I have one of those somewhere and would you be kind enough to tell me where?  

[Bloo]

You probably do. If that engine was ever in a 52 Dodge, I think it would have needed one for vacuum wipers. It is best if the port is near the center somewhere, like on the intake somewhere right under the carburetor, but it isn't always. My 36 Pontiac has it at the very back, not ideal. By 52, the port probably fed a booster pump on top of the fuel pump (for the vacuum wipers), so it could be closer to the front, nearer the fuel pump. In that case, it would still be better if they ran one from the middle somewhere with a pipe or hose, and they probably did.

 

If you can't find a plugged hose nipple, about 1/4" or 5/16", look for a pipe plug where someone removed the nipple.

 

Edited March 20 by Bloo (see edit history)

[InsideTrader]

6 minutes ago, Bloo said:

You probably do. If that engine was ever in a 52 Dodge, I think it would have needed one for vacuum wipers. It is best if the port is near the center somewhere, like on the intake somewhere right under the carburetor, but it isn't always. My 36 Pontiac has it at the very back, not ideal. By 52, the port probably fed a booster pump on top of the fuel pump (for the vacuum wipers), so it could be closer to the front, nearer the fuel pump. In that case, it would still be better if they ran one from the middle somewhere with a pipe or hose, and they probably did.

 

If you can't find a plugged hose nipple, about 1/4" or 5/16", look for a pipe plug where someone removed the nipple.

 

And this would be in the intake manifold somewhere?

[Bloo]

Yes.

 

[InsideTrader]

1 hour ago, Bloo said:

Yes.

 

The first picture with the hex head on top of the manifold seems to be a blind hole.  Not sure what that is.  The square head was in so tight I was worried I was going to destroy it getting it out so I left it alone.  The last hex head right under the carb came out and seems to give me access to the manifold.  Can I use it for the vacuum test?

[Bloo]

Yes! Probably....

 

It is a VERY likely spot. Make sure it really goes to the vacuum (sucks when you crank) but it probably does. That is right where I would expect to see it for the wipers to disturb the fuel distribution the least, and by 1952, somebody probably cared.

 

Could be exhaust. Make sure it isn't. Both intake and exhaust are nearby at that point. There is no reason i can think of for there to be a port in the exhaust, but they needed a vacuum port for the wipers for sure. The odds are in your favor.

 

[InsideTrader]

1 minute ago, Bloo said:

Yes! Probably....

 

It is a VERY likely spot. Make sure it really goes to the vacuum (sucks when you crank) but it probably does. That is right where I would expect to see it for the wipers to disturb the fuel distribution the least, and by 1952, somebody probably cared.

 

Could be exhaust. Make sure it isn't. Both intake and exhaust are nearby at that point. There is no reason i can think of for there to be a port in the exhaust, but they needed a vacuum port for the wipers for sure. The odds are in your favor.

 

Awesome!  And my hose barb that came with my vacuum gauge threads in there perfectly so maybe the stars will align for me.  Thank you sir.  I’ll let you know tomorrow.

[InsideTrader]

13 hours ago, Bloo said:

Yes.

 

Bloo, when I do this vacuum tune of the carb and timing, I do it with the vacuum advance line disconnected, correct?

[c49er]

All MoPar flat heads take ported vacuum advance above the throttle plate...not full intake manifold vacuum.

This with the Stromberg and Carter Ball and Ball carbs used on most all 218/230,236,251 and 265 car and 1/2 to 3/4 ton pu engines.

[Bloo]

3 hours ago, InsideTrader said:

Bloo, when I do this vacuum tune of the carb and timing, I do it with the vacuum advance line disconnected, correct?

Yes, it is common practice to disconnect the vacuum advance line to set timing. It shouldn't matter because in theory the distributor is connected to the "ported vacuum" port on the carburetor, and that port is not working at idle.

 

The manifold port we have been discussing is only for the vacuum gauge.

 

[Rusty_OToole]

Tiny bit of trivia here, Chrysler was the first company to go to electric wipers starting in 1939. The 52 Dodge did not have vacuum wipers, they were electric, which is why the manifold does not have a vacuum port BUT there should be plugs where a fitting can be screwed in just in case. Thought you might like to know why the Vacuum port is "missing".

 

And yes, vacuum for distributor advance is quite different from manifold vacuum. They do not interchange.

Edited March 20 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[InsideTrader]

5 hours ago, Bloo said:

Yes, it is common practice to disconnect the vacuum advance line to set timing. It shouldn't matter because in theory the distributor is connected to the "ported vacuum" port on the carburetor, and that port is not working at idle.

 

The manifold port we have been discussing is only for the vacuum gauge.

 

Well it turns out that second hole I found was also a blind hole.  There are two drilled and tapped blind holes that have been plugged.  I ended up getting the big wrench out and removing the square head plug.  It was a true hole.  I hooked the vacuum gauge up and it was a stable at 17 at idle.  According to my handy dandy vacuum gauge chart, that could mean delayed ignition timing.  Timing was one issue I suspected so I’m feeling good about this.  I wasn’t able to mess with timing yet as the wife and kids had other demands on my time but I’m optimistic.  What I’m not liking is that when I pulled that plug from the manifold, it seemed as though there is oil residue in my intake manifold.  Not sure what that’s about.

[zepher]

Is the blow by line fed into the intake manifold?
I thought you mentioned there was quite a bit of blow by, if so, that would put oil vapor into the intake and that can cause some oil residue in the intake.

[InsideTrader]

12 minutes ago, zepher said:

Is the blow by line fed into the intake manifold?
I thought you mentioned there was quite a bit of blow by, if so, that would put oil vapor into the intake and that can cause some oil residue in the intake.

No sir.  The blow by exits the oil cap into a hose that vents out of the bottom of the engine bay.

[Rusty_OToole]

39 minutes ago, Jack Bennett said:

Use a good, straight 30 weight, (ask the counter clerk specifically for) non-detergent motor oil. I like to check and change the oil in my old cars often, and, wanting to keep the hobby affordable, use the cheapest stuff sold by O’Reilly’s. 

This is the kind of bum information that drives me crazy. Detergent oil was available from 1947 on, multigrade from 1951. The owner of an expensive new car in 1951, would hardly buy the cheap, recycled bulk oil sold in mason jars. Chances are it never used anything but 10W30 as that was the default choice at every dealership and service station in the fifties and sixties.

In any case I would not seek out inferior quality oil  when there are so many better choices available. Chrysler DID approve use of 30 weight oil but ONLY in HOT weather under SEVERE service. And only when nothing better was available. 10W30 is much better for the engine and in your case, in view of the worn bearings etc 15W40 might be better.

Edited March 22 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[Grimy]

7 minutes ago, Rusty_OToole said:

This is the kind of bum information that drives me crazy. Detergent oil was available from 1947 on, multigrade from 1951. The owner of an expensive new car in 1951, would hardly buy the cheap, recycled bulk oil sold in mason jars. Chances are it never used anything but 10W30 as that was the default choice at every dealership and service station in the fifties and sixties.

In any case I would not seek out inferior quality oil  when there are so many better choices available. Chrysler DID approve use of 30 weight oil but ONLY in HOT weather under SEVERE service. And only when nothing better was available. 10W30 is much better for the engine and in your case, in view of the worn bearings etc 15W40 might be better.

Absolutely! "Detergent" is a misnomer--"dispersant" is more accurate.  These dispersant "HD" oils hold solid contaminants in suspension rather than allowing them to sediment out not only in the oil pan but also in crankshaft oil passages and oil galleries.  I will again post photos of "crank turds" being pushed from a friend's Pierce-Arrow crankshaft after decades of non-detergent/non-dispersant oils.  How much oil do you think was getting through this mess?  Today's HD oils, including multigrades, will not turn loose deposits to clog oil galleries and crankshafts but will prevent further deposits from forming.

 

FWIW, I use Shell Rotella T-4 (dino) SAE 15W-40 in all my collector cars in my signature.

[Jack Bennett]

2 minutes ago, Rusty_OToole said:

This is the kind of bum information that drives me crazy. Detergent oil was available from 1947 on, multigrade from 1951. The owner of an expensive new car in 1951, would hardly buy the cheap, recycled bulk oil sold in mason jars. Chances are it never used anything but 10W30 as that was the default choice at every dealership and service station in the fifties and sixties.

In any case I would not seek out inferior quality oil  when there are so many better choices available. Chrysler DID advocate use of 30 weight oil but ONLY in HOT weather under SEVERE service. And only when nothing better was available. 10W30 is much better for the engine and in your case, in view of the worn bearings etc 15W40 might be better.

I am sorry to have offended anyone with my drivel. 
And, you are correct that only the owners of an expensive car should be allowed to post on this forum. 
And, only a idiot would assume that only high quality, high detergent, multi weight motor oil had been used in a seventy year old engine, and it would also imply that it was a idiot telling someone who had asked about “which oil to use in a TUG engine, that using a non detergent oil prior to cleaning out the sludge, was bum information.

It is apparent that I have both presented my age and experience as fraudulent, and I am trying to subvert the knowledge of a person who previously used Facebook as source of automotive information is not in keeping with the forum standards.

I do feel appropriately bad, will delete my abusive and presumptuous comment, and exit the forum again.

My apologies……I am not a professional, little more than a hobbyist, and will limit my future internet sojourns to Facebook.

On 3/19/2024 at 4:54 PM, InsideTrader said:

This forum has been great! Everyone has been super helpful.  That hasn’t always been my experience on other Facebook groups and forums.  I tend to get a lot of “don’t try it if you aren’t a professional” type of comment.  I had a small Diesel engine one time that was locked up.  Water got into the cylinders and pitted them pretty bad.  I was a member of an engine rebuilding Facebook group and started asking questions about the machining operations to rebuild it.  You would have thought I was trying to do brain surgery on my own children with the “don’t you dare” comments I was getting from the group.  Eventually one guy answered my questions.  This forum has been amazing though.

 

[Jack Bennett]

I have taken the liberty of posting a thread time stamped 2013, regarding the same subject.

Note the comments, who made them, and what the one piece of semi-authoritative material says about what oil to use in a “FLAT HEAD”……and not a “FLAT SIX” 218 and 230 cubic inch MOPAR engine.

I don’t know where you live, but anywhere short of north of the Article circle, I’d still stick with straight 30 weight, non-detergent motor oil.

And, be prepared to provide anyone who goes “crazy” at hearing any advice which may disagree with this, the telephone number of a good psychoanalyst and a anger management specialist.

Jack

[ABear]

42 minutes ago, Jack Bennett said:

I am sorry to have offended anyone with my drivel. 
And, you are correct that only the owners of an expensive car should be allowed to post on this forum. 
And, only a idiot would assume that only high quality, high detergent, multi weight motor oil had been used in a seventy year old engine, and it would also imply that it was a idiot telling someone who had asked about “which oil to use in a TUG engine, that using a non detergent oil prior to cleaning out the sludge, was bum information.

It is apparent that I have both presented my age and experience as fraudulent, and I am trying to subvert the knowledge of a person who previously used Facebook as source of automotive information is not in keeping with the forum standards.

I do feel appropriately bad, will delete my abusive and presumptuous comment, and exit the forum again.

My apologies……I am not a professional, little more than a hobbyist, and will limit my future internet sojourns to Facebook.

Your post reminded a bit of my Dad.

 

He was very old school type of person, was very passionate and insistent on the use of straight non HD oils. I followed that practice for many yrs until one day pretty much finding straight weight non HD oils become impossible to locate in retail stores. I was down to one wholesale "supplier" which was not really setup for small retail purchases. Straight 20w isn't available in any of my local stores, limited availability of straight 30W HD and 40W HD I can only find in stores like Tractor Supply and if you read the labels closely those oils are labeled for use in non pressurized usage like compressor and small air cooled engines (think lawn mower) which use splash lubrication.

 

So, kicking a screaming I resolved myself that I will need to move on in life and get aboard the multi vis train. So far since I moved on, I have as of yet harmed not one engine by doing so. In fact running more modern multi-vis seems to have had a profound benefit of much, much higher longevity of the engines it has been put in by myself. So far the record winner is one vehicle that racked up 240,000 miles and never used a drop of oil changing the oil every 7500 miles per vehicles manufacturer recommendations and was still running very strong when I sold the vehicle. Have had many similar results with many other vehicles racking up well over 1 MILLION miles between at least 5 vehicles.. Yes, they were more modern that a 1950s era car, but same principal does apply.

 

Something else missed is the old school straight weight non HD oils also required very frequent oil changes, 2K-3K miles as they also did not benefit from advanced additives packages that help with wear and dirt that is produced in engines. Had I insisted on using straight weight non HD oils I would have had change oil once to twice a month in my commuter vehicle as I was driving in excess of 2K miles just to get to work.

 

With that said, there is one possible issue with modern multi-vis HD oils, if you have an engine which uses certain materials for bearings and wear surfaces the newer oils are low or no zinc included. In the case of the OPs engine, it is possible that it could present some wear issues with newer oils.. But I highly doubt that the OPs engine is going to fail for a long, long time as it isn't something that is going to see hundreds of hrs per month of use. If concerned, there is zddp additive packages you can use to supplement the oil to make you feel better.

 

On edit..

 

I should also add, even many on the Model T forums are successfully using modern multi-vis HD oils and that oil supplies not only the engine but the transmission. Granted model T engine isn't pressurized, but it IS still a "flat head" engine and you do have additional trash in the oil from the transmission bands wearing down.

Edited March 22 by ABear (see edit history)

[Jack Bennett]

4 minutes ago, ABear said:

Your post reminded a bit of my Dad.

 

He was very old school type of person, was very passionate and insistent on the use of straight non HD oils. I followed that practice for many yrs until one day pretty much finding straight weight non HD oils become impossible to locate in retail stores. I was down to one wholesale "supplier" which was not really setup for small retail purchases. Straight 20w isn't available in any of my local stores, limited availability of straight 30W HD and 40W HD I can only find in stores like Tractor Supply and if you read the labels closely those oils are labeled for use in non pressurized usage like compressor and small air cooled engines (think lawn mower) which use splash lubrication.

 

So, kicking a screaming I resolved myself that I will need to move on in life and get aboard the multi vis train. So far since I moved on, I have as of yet harmed not one engine by doing so. In fact running more modern multi-vis seems to have had a profound benefit of much, much higher longevity of the engines it has been put in by myself. So far the record winner is one vehicle that racked up 240,000 miles and never used a drop of oil changing the oil every 7500 miles per vehicles manufacturer recommendations and was still running very strong when I sold the vehicle. Have had many similar results with many other vehicles racking up well over 1 MILLION miles between at least 5 vehicles.. Yes, they were more modern that a 1950s era car, but same principal does apply.

 

Something else missed is the old school straight weight non HD oils also required very frequent oil changes, 2K-3K miles as they also did not benefit from advanced additives packages that help with wear and dirt that is produced in engines. Had I insisted on using straight weight non HD oils I would have had change oil once to twice a month in my commuter vehicle as I was driving in excess of 2K miles just to get to work.

 

With that said, there is one possible issue with modern multi-vis HD oils, if you have an engine which uses certain materials for bearings and wear surfaces the newer oils are low or no zinc included. In the case of the OPs engine, it is possible that it could present some wear issues with newer oils.. But I highly doubt that the OPs engine is going to fail for a long, long time as it isn't something that is going to see hundreds of hrs per month of use. If concerned, there is zddp additive packages you can use to supplement the oil to make you feel better.

 

Hi ABear. I am not a professional anything now, other than a retiree who treats the privilege as if it were a profession.

I look at the title of this forum, and they have included “antique” as their first name, and the continuation of the title, being “automobile collectors association” hints that it is a place for people interested in “antique automobiles” to congregate and discuss their hobby.

I have as much fun communicating with folks on the forum as I have maintaining and driving my old cars.

And when the weather, my health or even just my attitude makes working on the cars impractical, this is the nearest outlet available to actually doing it.

I have also tried a hiatus from posting to the forum because there are some folks who have drifted so far away from the hobby aspect of our affliction that they have forgotten that this is not a owners manual, and any posts must be understood by the aspiring antique car hobbyist as it is tolerated by the “old school” type of person, regardless of how “passionate and insistent” their ways may imply wisdom.

My 1923 Dodge Roadster has no modern oil seals, rather, both it and my 1927 Willys Knight use felt seals, and implores the operator to avoid overfilling the transmission, crankcase and differential to prevent lubricant loss and counter contamination of clutch and brake linings. It also, in a very non contentious way that a semi-grease weight of lubricant be used in the gear boxes, and a straight weight, non detergent oil be used in the engine to prevent damage to the brass bearing surfaces.

That said, I just finished installing a 1951 Dodge pickup engine in my 1929 Fargo Express Panel truck and have left the original 230 cubic inch flat head engine installed in the 1951 Plymouth Cambridge I drive regularly.

IF you want to gather information on any procedure or material used in the restoration of a HOBBY vehicle, you only need “Google” it, and a million answers are available right in your own living room.

But, if you want to “talk” to people to explore the possibility of buying a old vehicle, and entering the Hobby of old car restoration, you “talk” to others with similar interests on a forum such as this.

However, joining such a group does not imply that you are neither dumb or totally ignorant of the answers to the questions you ask.

It is suggested that any person who is able to acquire a classic or antique vehicle has a lifestyle which permits it. That fairly well eliminates the severely mentally impaired, the demented who devotes free time to conceiving criminal activities, and most certainly, has demonstrated that their anti-social personality demands immediate medical attention.

I use the forum as a method of expressing my ability, as a retiree, to buy and own a collector vehicle, and I am not ashamed of being able to communicate with others regarding the pursuit of the affliction as a hobby

However, when my experiences on the forum, while sparring with the pride and egos of the elite, and those who deem themselves as the sole possessors of old car information, exceed the amount of sweat and blood I’d shed by installing a clutch, in the mud, on a sub-zero weather day, and trashing my mind too boot, on my old truck, I’ll take the truck and leave the forum to the warriors who have survived combat in the (lubrication) pits of hell.

Jack

 

[Rusty_OToole]

The OP would probably be ok to use 30 oil in his airport tug, as it was recommended by Chrysler in warm weather and I doubt he drives it when it is freezing. As for the sludge problem when using non detergent, his engine is on borrowed time so it probably wouldn't make much diff.

The big joke is that 15W40 is thicker than straight 30 when it is hot, so I was the one calling for thick oil. Only it is thinner when cold, for easier starting, and better lubrication when cold. And of course the detergent package helps keep the engine clean and free of sludge, important when the vehicle is used for short hops.

So if you want to go to the extra trouble of tracking down an oil that is admittedly inferior go ahead. But why pretend it is better for your engine when it isn't.