1948 DeSoto clock question

[marcapra]

I have a 1948 DeSoto clock made by the Borg Clock Co.  Since it has been sitting for 40 plus years I didn't really expect it to start ticking when I hooked it up to a six volt battery.  The light bulb worked, but no ticking.  I had a 2 amp fuse inline that looked good.  But what I really need to do is clean and oil the works.  So I removed the bezel and tried to remove the glass, but the dial knob needs to come out as it holds the glass on.  I tried to unscrew it, but I was just spinning the hands.  Does anyone know what to do now?  

[c49er]

Just open thebback...clean the contact points lightly and run it.

I've done many 1946-48 Chrysler clocks same way and they always work. 

That's a nice clock.. don't guess taking it apart and possibly ruining it.

[marcapra]

I've already taken the back off, but there's no access to the works or contact points.  

[marcapra]

this is what you see when you take off the back.  I don't see any access to the points, so I guess I have to do more disassembly to take out the other back.  

[human-potato_hybrid]

Remove the power wire and the two opposite screws and the case will come off. Oil every pin joint you can reach and all gear teeth. Locate the contacts, pull the weight in the direction of opening the contacts to wind it. Locate the escapement flywheel and give it a very gentle nudge to start going if it doesn't start already.

 

Keep it hooked up to power for a while if you can so the oil works its way in before you install it. Probably won't make much of a difference though.

Edited January 21 by human-potato_hybrid (see edit history)

[marcapra]

I finally got the back off.  Easier than I thought.  But I'm concerned about the points.  One contact has a little point on it, while the other contact has a little depression in it.  Do I need new points or should I just file the points?  

[prewarnut]

Hi, if I may chime in....I respectfully disagree with the prior comment. First, before oiling anything assess the contacts as you are doing. This is an electrically actuated rewind clock. It basically trips every 45 seconds, or 2 minutes or 5 minutes, etc depending on design. I haven't worked on this but have worked on similar Poole and Self Winding Clock Co. movements. All it takes is one failed rewind and the clock stops. So it is first important to see if it trips correctly both via the electrical contact being clean and also the lever arrangement that actually does the tripping. I don't know the design of this but do know the pendulum clock design (not applicable here). Next, is the clock actually wound already? Use a fine blade and lightly apply pressure to the larger central gear to see if it seems to be under pressure in one direction. If so then the works may be gummed up down the line and need cleaning. However, just oiling doesn't relieve the gummed and dirty pivots of their new found friction - it helps to circulate such and only lead to scoring in the future. It might get it working now but it will be doomed to stop in a few months or years. Lastly on clocks and watches the teeth are never oiled. Yes on WWII era radio equipment the teeth of numerous moving gears for variable capacitors were oiled but not in this application. If it's not an easy fix it will really need to be stripped down, cleaned, properly lubed with appropriate clock (and watch oil at the balance) and reassembled and timed. I believe with this arrangement no fundamental work is needed from the front side/setting/hand assembly.

[human-potato_hybrid]

The points are already slightly open so the mechanism is stopped. The points may not even need to be filed.

 

My comment was mostly "getting it running". Yes if you want it to work well and for as long as possible you will need to disassemble everything and clean / lube it properly.

[human-potato_hybrid]

5 hours ago, prewarnut said:

All it takes is one failed rewind and the clock stops.

If this happens the contacts will be closed. If the contacts are still open then the clock is wound, and just not moving.

[marcapra]

I am thinking I need to take this to my local clock doc who says he can fix any kind of clock old or new.  Restoring an old car is hard enough without having to learn all of this stuff.  

[rodneybeauchamp]

2 hours ago, marcapra said:

I am thinking I need to take this to my local clock doc who says he can fix any kind of clock old or new.  Restoring an old car is hard enough without having to learn all of this stuff.  

The Borg clock in my ‘63 Buick Riviera came to life after a bit of TLC. Most times when they stopped working owners just didn’t bother to get them fixed.
 

After removing it which was tricky, I soaked the mechanism in a clean glass jar filled with Shellite for several days to remove any dried lubrication, dust or dirt. Amazingly this had no affect on the plastic face.

 

I then used a light oil designed for model railway use that does not affect plastics and other metals and lightly lubricated the gear pivots and spindles. I also cleaned the contact points gently with a small file.

 

Then I gently spun the flywheel to get it to move, each time running slightly longer until it went the whole cycle to open the points. Then using a 12V power supply I kept it powered on a bench for several days confirming it would run and keep reasonably accurate time. 
 

Worked for me.

 

Rodney 😀😀😀😀😀

 

PS There is a write up on my clock refurbishing including pictures in the Buick Riviera forum if you want more information. And there is a great article written elsewhere on Borg clocks that inspired me to do it!

 

https://forums.aaca.org/topic/293988-quartz-clock-conversion-and-refurbishment/?do=findComment&comment=1613845

 

Edited January 23 by rodneybeauchamp
Spelun and link (see edit history)

[c49er]

If you are a clock rebuilder/ restoration company...

[marcapra]

I contacted a clock repairman today.  I found out my old clock doc, who I haven't seen since before Covid had died.  Even though his ad said that he fixed all kinds of clocks, he urged me to seek a car clock specialist, or convert it to a quartz movement.  He said his experience with car clocks is that they are very hit and miss.  When I told him that there was an NOS DeSoto clock just like mine on Ebay that was cleaned, oiled, and working, he said I should buy it immediately.  So that's what I did.  As far as the idea of converting it to a quartz movement, I might do that if there was no other option, but I like to look at original technology that is still working.  I know a guy in Oz who said that he wasn't going to pay the Ebay price for an original 48 Plymouth clock, so he copied a pic of the face onto photo paper and glued it onto his dash.  He said at least it gives him the correct time twice a day!  

Edited January 26 by marcapra (see edit history)

[keiser31]

This place....https://www.bobsspeedometer.com/

[c49er]

Mine has worked for the past 45+ years in my 48 T&C.

I just cleaned up the points in 1978 when I first got it.

Done a few others same way.

But best buy that NOS clock.

[Larry Schramm]

7 hours ago, marcapra said:

I contacted a clock repairman today.  I found out my old clock doc, who I haven't seen since before Covid had died.  Even though his ad said that he fixed all kinds of clocks, he urged me to seek a car clock specialist, or convert it to a quartz movement.  He said his experience with car clocks is that they are very hit and miss.  When I told him that there was an NOS DeSoto clock just like mine on Ebay that was cleaned, oiled, and working, he said I should buy it immediately.  So that's what I did.  As far as the idea of converting it to a quartz movement, I might do that if there was no other option, but I like to look at original technology that is still working.  I know a guy in Oz who said that he wasn't going to pay the Ebay price for an original 48 Plymouth clock, so he copied a pic of the face onto photo paper and glued it onto his dash.  He said at least it gives him the correct time twice a day!  

 

I changed the clock in our Corvette to quartz.  Keeps perfect time, uses less power, and the only persons that would know that it is quartz is everyone on the forum reading this reply or watching the second hand move and know the difference between an analog clock and digital.  Not a lot.

Edited January 26 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[JACK M]

I had a clock converted to quartz in a 67 Newport convertible I used to have.

It kept perfect time for several years and was still working when I sold the car.

I had one converted for my 46 Chrysler, it featured a speed up thing for setting the time, I had to push the set button and the clock would speed up in order to set the time. It worked for a couple of days then I unhooked the battery for a couple of months.

When I hooked the battery back up I couldn't get it to stop the setting spinning thing. So I took the fuse out. That was a waste of time and money.

[marcapra]

13 hours ago, Larry Schramm said:

 

I changed the clock in our Corvette to quartz.  Keeps perfect time, uses less power, and the only persons that would know that it is quartz is everyone on the forum reading this reply or watching the second hand move and know the difference between an analog clock and digital.  Not a lot.

You mean when you have your Corvette judged at a car show the judges don't ask you to remove the clock so they can examine the works?  

[timecapsule]

I have a '48 Chrysler Windsor and I'm guessing that I have the same clock in it.  However I also have a clock out of my '46 Chrysler Royal parts car and even though it looks the same, some of the gears are slightly different.

 

Your clock is electro/mechanical.  Those points do need to be filed so that they meet cleanly.  The reason your points are bad, is that the battery got run down and the voltage dropped down that goes to the points.  A lot of people think that the clock runs down the battery, but it's the other way around.  As mentioned earlier in this post, the points set off a spark, when they touch.  Mine go off about every one and a half minutes. But even that can be adjusted.  When those points touch that spark briefly opens the points.  That movement cause a piece of spring steel to flip in an opposite direction.  Which in turn resets a spring loaded wheel that is connected to a balance wheel.  What this does is basically rewinds the mechanism.  The clock is now functioning and it will function until that spring becomes unwound.  At the same time the mechanism is gradually closing the points.  Once the points close, a spark energizes the points and the separate again and the procedure happens again.  The battery needs to be fully charged to create sufficient spark to open the points and to make the piece of spring steel flex in the opposite direction.  If the battery is slightly discharged, there won't be enough spark to open the points and they will sort of try to open but basically just keep sparking without opening.  This causes the points to weld together and blow a fuse.  

I took mine apart, I'm taking about disassembling every single piece. Cleaned each piece meticulously and put it back together.  If one of those pieces is slightly damaged or dirty or ever so slightly out of adjustment and alignment, it will not work.  Sometimes it will just keep blowing fuses, sometimes it will run of 10 or 15 seconds and just slow down and stop. If you're going to disassemble it, you need tons of patience and time.  Not to mention a lot of 3 amp fuses.  Maybe try to find a 3 amp breaker.  You'll need a set of those magnifying glasses, and a few top notch tweezers, and steady hands.

  

As for lubrication, you only lubricate the pointed ends of the gears.  I've forgotten now just how many gears there are that come to a point at each end.  You put a drop of oil on each end on both ends of the gear.  There is actually specific clock gear oil.  But I used sewing machine oil and it seems to work just fine.  But don't over do it.  Just a drop or two. 

 

There is one other devise that you lube and the is the ends of the speed adjuster.  In the one picture the arrows point to where the oil goes, as with the other pictures showing arrows where the oil goes.  The "bread tie" shows just how small and delicate the speed adjuster is.

 

One thing to watch for is the body grounding out, when you reassemble.  There is very little clearance and also sometimes that tiny gasket material can get damaged.  Telltale signs are constantly flowing a fuse as soon as you add power to the clock.  I found that a 2 amp fuse wasn't enough, but a 4 amp fuse was too much so a 3 amp fuse is just right. 

 

The best way to have your clock always working when you need it is to add a switch to it, and only turn it on when you're driving the car.   Because the clock will run when the car is off.  If you put your ear close to it you can hear the mechanical side of the clock resetting ever minute and a half ( with my clock at least ) But if the car isn't used every day, and you don't have it on a trickle charger, the battery will get a bit low and as I mentioned above the points will weld themselves together.   

 

 

 

Edited January 27 by timecapsule (see edit history)

[marcapra]

Wow that is a great response and those are beautiful pics!  that's why i'm resisting going to a quartz movement.  I think all those gears are a thing of mechanical beauty!  I don't have the guts to take my works apart though.  I have a clock oil kit and I might oil those points.  but as I said above, I just bought an NOS DeSoto clock on Ebay that said it was oiled and working.  I will check it out when it gets here in a few days.  On my clock the points didn't weld themselves together.  In my pic, it show the points are far apart, but the contacts are badly pitted.  I like that tip of shuttng the clock off when the car is not in use.  Would disconnecting the ground cable on the battery be the same?  I usually do that when I am not running the car.  

[human-potato_hybrid]

3 hours ago, marcapra said:

Would disconnecting the ground cable on the battery be the same?

Yes.

 

To clarify the above comment, the clock rewinds itself through the points closing, which completes a circuit to turn on an electromagnet. The magnet pulls a slug which simultaneously re winds the clock and opens the points. The sparking is due mostly to the electromagnet inductance, that mostly happens after the power has been flowing for a fraction of a second through the electromagnet, which then pulls the points apart.

Edited January 27 by human-potato_hybrid (see edit history)

[marcapra]

Yes, I get it.  Unlike a quartz movement, which is electronic, the old car clocks are not electronic, but mechanically cranked.  But instead of being a day clock or a seven day clock, a car clock is only only wound up for about a minute, and then is rewound when the points touch.  If the battery gets low, there will not be enough power to rewind the clock spring and the points might weld together, or the fuse will blow.  The 48 DeSoto calls for a 2 amp fuse, but noticed that on the 51 model clocks, the fuse changed to 3 amps. 

[timecapsule]

I agree with you marcapra, Once I started studying the clock and following the flow, so to say,  I saw just how skilled clock makers are.  

 

Once the points fire off the whole rest of the procedure is mechanical.  The intensity of the points can actually be adjusted. Maybe intensity is not the right word.  But the movement of the arm that the points are on can be adjusted.   In this picture the small brass strip (Y) regulates how far and how fast the arm that the points are on moves. 

[timecapsule]

This pictures shows the delicate brass arm (A) that the brass strip (Y) fits into.  If you take out that brass strip (Y) and bend out ever so slightly the brass arm (A),  that will slack off the pressure on the brass strip (Y).  Or if you bend that arm in, it will apply pressure on to the brass strip.  The more pressure that is on that strip, will make the points arm move faster and further.  But I'm talking about an adjustment of an extremely small amount. Perhaps moving the arm (A) in or out the thickness of a piece of paper.   If you move the arm (A) too far in or out, nothing will happen and the points arm won't respond.  That tiny brass strip (Y)is the key to setting off the whole procedure. 

Edited January 28 by timecapsule (see edit history)

[marcapra]

I just got my NOS DeSoto clock today.  I hooked it up to my six volt battery positive ground and it started ticking.  So I left it for about an hour and came back.  The ticking had stopped.  So I opened up the back and saw what was probably the problem.  There were a couple of shards of light bulb glass fouling up the works, so I removed them.  It started ticking again until the points met.  The battery was not connected so it stopped then.  Now I'm putting the back on the clock and am a bit puzzled by the Ground terminal.  The Battery terminal has a wire going to it, but the Ground terminal has nothing.  Is that because the terminal will touch the back cover of the clock, which would be ground?  

[marcapra]

Here is a video of my new clock ticking and winding.  

 

 

[Bloo]

3 hours ago, marcapra said:

 The Battery terminal has a wire going to it, but the Ground terminal has nothing.  Is that because the terminal will touch the back cover of the clock, which would be ground?  

Very likely yes. Grounding through the dash was typical for all sorts of things in 1948.

 

[marcapra]

After taking the broken glass out of the works, I got the clock back together now, and it is working fine.  I'm checking how accurate the speed is now so I can adjust it if needed.  So the ground terminal hits the metal back of the clock which goes to ground when you screw the clock to the back of the dash with the tab that sticks out from the bottom corner.  

[m-mman]

Looking at all of this I am amazed that clocks were mass produced at a price point.  
Assembly line or 100% individually assembled by a single craftsman?

🤔

[human-potato_hybrid]

Virtually anything bolted to the dash, body, frame, or engine of a car grounds through its attachment. Including high draw things like the cig lighter. 

 

I would guess assembly line manufactured with each person installing some parts, but it could also be done all by 1 person with all the bins of parts in front of them.

[marcapra]

My brother asked if this kind of clock with its points and electro-mechanical works were new technology in the 40s?  Does anyone know when this kind of clock started being put into production autos?  I wrote to the seller to ask him when was the last time the works were oiled on this clock.  He said probably never!  It's working well right now, but before I install it in the dash, I think I should oil the points shown by timecapsule with my clock oil kit.  

Edited January 30 by marcapra (see edit history)

[marcapra]

I found out the self winding clocks came into being sometime in the 1930s.  Before that there were Waltam clocks which were like pocket watches that you wound by hand once a week and placed on a bracket on the dash.  Today, I oiled my NOS DeSoto clock and it's working well and keeping good time now.  I also oiled my original to the car clock as well as sanded the points.  I  was surprised that I got it ticking also!  My new name is now The Clock Doc.  

[charlespetty]

My 1930 Lincoln has a self winding electrically actuated clock in the dash and a manually stem wound clock in the rear compartment. The best of both worlds.  

[marcapra]

That must be one of the first electrically wound car clocks if it's original to the car.  

[charlespetty]

I think Lincoln first had the electric clock in 1928.  Here are my dash and rear seat clocks.  

[marcapra]

Seth Thomas is one of the old time 19th century makers of shelf clocks and pocket watches!  Thanks for the great pics of these clocks!  

[Larry Schramm]

On 1/26/2024 at 5:55 PM, marcapra said:

You mean when you have your Corvette judged at a car show the judges don't ask you to remove the clock so they can examine the works?  

 

What is judging?

[marcapra]

Since the shop manual for a 48 DeSoto does not show a clock in the wiring diagram, does anyone know where I should connect the power wire?  

[keiser31]

7 hours ago, marcapra said:

Since the shop manual for a 48 DeSoto does not show a clock in the wiring diagram, does anyone know where I should connect the power wire?  

I would suggest trying to find a near era wiring harness for a MoPar to see where they power the clock from.

[c49er]

I'd look at the 1941-48 chrysler shop manual wiring diagram.

The clock is shown in it.