Willis38 Posted October 28, 2023 Share Posted October 28, 2023 Want to replace rear axle outer seal, need to get flange off to access. Have tried heavy duty commercial 3 leg puller to lug nut threads, 4' pipe on socket and no budge. Have not tried slide hammer yet. Not recommended to heat much so only put some propane heat on it, no help. I find nothing in manual about a locking pin, bolt, etc. Have brake backing plate loosened. Can anyone give any advice on getting the flange off?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted October 28, 2023 Share Posted October 28, 2023 (edited) Do you mean the drum? Use that 4 inch pipe and let it sit over night. Then pull it again. Smack the bolt head on the puller a couple of good whacks. Rince and repeat. Might take a day or three. But should fly across the shop when it comes loose. (leave the nut loose on its threads to avoid that) Edited October 28, 2023 by JACK M (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
61polara Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 I'm confused by what you are asking. A picture would help. The 1938 Plymouth rear axle doesn't have a flange because it is a tapered axle. The drum comes off with the hub. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryB Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 Here is a link to keithb video on removing brake drums on 1938 Plymouth. The front brakes are addressed first, then the rear. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobileparts Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 Those Rear Axle Seals --- ARE --- a flanged Rear Axle Seal......fits 1936 - 1942 Chrysler, Dodge, DeSoto, and Plymouth -- A L L -- I have some very nice ones... Brand New..... Always best to simply call me --- 516 - 485 - 193five --- Craig....... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willis38 Posted October 30, 2023 Author Share Posted October 30, 2023 Thanks for all advice given. I had watched Keith's video before, but I missed one important item. I have been trying to remove the tapered shaft "with drum off", he shows it with drum on! His video is for a front wheel, I'm working on a rear but assume they will be same/similar. Have tried all other items mentioned, going out there now to see how it goes as Keith showed, will report back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldtech Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 Rears are addressed towards the end of the video. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryB Posted October 30, 2023 Share Posted October 30, 2023 2 hours ago, Oldtech said: Rears are addressed towards the end of the video. Yes, I should have pointed that out, the rear drums require the three legged puller to remove. It’s pretty far into the video when he gets to the rear drums. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willis38 Posted October 30, 2023 Author Share Posted October 30, 2023 Thanks to all again. I did review Keith's video again. This time noticed another big item - when he pulls, off comes the hub and it contains the bearing and "sleeve" bearing is in, at that point there is a problem. That bearing sleeve that comes off with his hub, is attached to the hub by 5 studs/bolts, those bolts are missing on mine so the hub comes off separate from that "sleeve"/flange (terminology?), the round metal plate which has the lug nut threads. I've been using the same puller Keith used, bolted to the lug nut threads, so I'm pulling on the same sleeve, just without the hub on there. That's why I commented before I'd try it with the hub on, made no difference; will get some 3/8 short bolts to secure hub to sleeve/flange Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 All good advice here, but @JACK M's post really nails it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
61polara Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 (edited) 5 hours ago, Willis38 said: Thanks to all again. I did review Keith's video again. This time noticed another big item - when he pulls, off comes the hub and it contains the bearing and "sleeve" bearing is in, at that point there is a problem. That bearing sleeve that comes off with his hub, is attached to the hub by 5 studs/bolts, those bolts are missing on mine so the hub comes off separate from that "sleeve"/flange (terminology?), the round metal plate which has the lug nut threads. I've been using the same puller Keith used, bolted to the lug nut threads, so I'm pulling on the same sleeve, just without the hub on there. That's why I commented before I'd try it with the hub on, made no difference; will get some 3/8 short bolts to secure hub to sleeve/flange I'm still very confused by what you are trying to do. The rear hub is attached to the drum and is not to be removed. There is no outer bearing in there like on the front wheels. So there is no seal there. On the backing plate, there is a square metal plate held on by four bolts. The only rear axle seal is behind this plate. Take out the four bolts and remove the plate and the seal is right there. There is no outer and inner seal, only this one seal and one bearing in the rear. Also, I'll repeat, there is no flange on the rear axle as this is a tapered axle. Do not try to remove the hub from the drum. You will destroy it if you haven't already. Edited October 31, 2023 by 61polara (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willis38 Posted October 31, 2023 Author Share Posted October 31, 2023 I understand about the seal and it's location. "I" did NOT remove the hub from the drum, it was already separated, no problem getting drum off, it's the hub that is still there that I can't get off. It appears as the hub is riveted to the drum, or should be? I'm just going by my repair manual that indicates an outer and inner bearing and seal, perhaps incorrect. My thought is that if the hub and drum are one, as it should be, both would come off at the same time, somewhere along the line someone separated them for who knows why, so with the drum off and hub still on there, one would think that hub would still come off. Appears I need to replace the hub/drum, but still remains I gotta get that hub off. Thanks for your help. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldtech Posted October 31, 2023 Share Posted October 31, 2023 Gotcha! We were all wondering about the free drum, not a normal Mopar feature. As far as getting that hub off all the puller advice goes - as in Jack M's post, and they can be a bear. A bit of heat may be in order. If you are not reusing that hub, maybe a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willis38 Posted October 31, 2023 Author Share Posted October 31, 2023 Thanks again for the advice. You sure solved one question as to the drum & hub being together, I didn't know for sure. I have a theory about why they are separated, but don't know for sure. My grandfather bought this '38 new, at one point it sat for some time and couldn't get running. So sold it to a mechanic neighbor. He got it running so bought it back, so since '38 it's been out of the family for 3 mos. I'm just guessing that he put back shoes on it and couldn't get that drum/hub off so he just separated them to get the drum off. Not important, just the only thing I can come up with. You and the others were great to lend help!! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
61polara Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 Ok, so the hub of the brake drum is still mounted on the axle shaft and you have the correct puller. You can bolt the puller directly to the hub. Tighten the puller against the axle shaft as tight as you can by hand. Take a large hammer and hit the cross bar handle of the puller with a large hammer like a hand sledge. Hit it hard until it is as tight as you can get it. Leave it alone and come back in an hour and hit it again. Let it sit for a while or even overnight. Hit it again and tighten it further. You may not think it is moving any, but if you can tighten it further, it has. You have to keep tight tension on the puller for it to work. You may have to do this over several days. Applying some penetrating oil to the axle may help. You can also apply some heat to the hub. Tapping the hub while it is under tension to set up a vibration may help as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ply33 Posted November 1, 2023 Share Posted November 1, 2023 7 hours ago, 61polara said: Ok, so the hub of the brake drum is still mounted on the axle shaft and you have the correct puller. You can bolt the puller directly to the hub. Tighten the puller against the axle shaft as tight as you can by hand. Take a large hammer and hit the cross bar handle of the puller with a large hammer like a hand sledge. Hit it hard until it is as tight as you can get it. Leave it alone and come back in an hour and hit it again. Let it sit for a while or even overnight. Hit it again and tighten it further. You may not think it is moving any, but if you can tighten it further, it has. You have to keep tight tension on the puller for it to work. You may have to do this over several days. Applying some penetrating oil to the axle may help. You can also apply some heat to the hub. Tapping the hub while it is under tension to set up a vibration may help as well. When following the instructions @61polara gives, have the hub nut on the axle shaft but loose. That does two things: 1. If place at the end of the shaft it will help keep the threads on the axle shaft from being damaged by the puller. 2. Sometimes when the hub and drum come loose it can be explosive. Having the nut on the end of the axle shaft can keep it from flying across the room and damaging someone or something. I would avoid applying heat if you possibly can. Some people have success in using a 1/2" impact gun on the puller's hex head instead of using a hand sledge on the dog bone. But apparently my 1/2" impact wrench does not have enough impact so I use the hand sledge on the dog bone. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c49er Posted November 2, 2023 Share Posted November 2, 2023 I agree about using no heat...and leaving the hub nut on loose. Some hints....use a high quality three or five leg puller...make sure the large fine thread puller screw shaft is perfectly inline with the axle shaft. If not ..even a couple degree's off you will loose a lot of pulling power. If the puller you are using only has the hex on the end and requires using a socket and a breaker bar....it's going to be very difficult and slow going. The good pullers ( say Snap-on/ OTC/Blue Point) use a dog bone on the puller screw that you wack with a hammer.... Not a typical claw hammer...you need to use a real hammer like a 4lb. mini-sledge and hit the dog bone like a pro with deliberate strong and very hard accurate hits. The drum and hub cannot rotate at all during removal or you will lose too much impact force. Tighten up the shoes to lock the drum and prevent turning. Myself..I just use my hand clasped over the drum and backing plate holding the drum from rotating. If you don't have the dog bone style puller- just the hex nut type...the easy way getting the drum to pop loose is to use a high quality , high ft lbs. 1/2" impact gun with 3/8" air hose @150-175lbs pressure. And...you must use the proper heavy impact socket. All tapered axle style drums -whether it's big 14" Packards, 12" Chrysler Imperials or 300's , or the little 10" Plymouth drum/hubs..the drums will pop off with out heat or waiting a day two or three. I know most don't have the tools or experience on removing these difficult stuck on drums. Just some info on how I have learned to do them for the last 50 plus years. I have removed hundreds and hundreds of these drums over the years...slowing just a bit these days though.😄 Yes..The drums will come right off using good technique and tools. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldtech Posted November 2, 2023 Share Posted November 2, 2023 My reference to heat is only as a last resort and only if you are discarding the hub as it will warp. Only saying this 'cause we had a 59 Plymouth once that defied all other means. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithb7 Posted November 3, 2023 Share Posted November 3, 2023 (edited) Sounds like most of this has been sorted. I wanted to chip in and talk about shoe adjustment. If the shoes are set nice and close to the drum, they can impede drum removal. To remove any doubt, you can back off the minor brake shoe adjustment cam bolt. Half way up each side of the rear backing plate. I think they take a 3/4” wrench? Turning the bolts so the wrench is moving up towards the car’s engine hood, (both bolts) loosens shoe to drum clearance. Turning the bolts so the wrench is travelling down towards the ground (both bolts) tightens-up shoe to drum clearance. By backing off the brake shoes, you then know the shoes are not contributing to impeding drum removal. I agree, the hub is supposed to live on the drum. Here are couple of pics of a spare drum I have here. -Keith Edited November 3, 2023 by keithb7 (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willis38 Posted November 3, 2023 Author Share Posted November 3, 2023 Great advice and tips from all and greatly appreciated. Good hub pic by keithb7, as I suspected that drum is "riveted" to the hub, as I said before, neighbor mechanic must have done brakes & he couldn't get hub/drum off so he drilled those rivets out for access, some are now threaded for short bolts to secure them. Hub stuck then, hub stuck now, rats. The puller I'm using is quite hefty, but not dog bone type so a minus there. Recently I've added another possible negative aspect to the saga - hooked up the nice SnapOn hammer puller, 8-10 good whacks and "movement", wow got it, what I got was the hub along with the axle shaft! So now I guess it's the same process you all suggested, but hopefully being able to hold that shaft well in my vice. Did take it all to machinist and due to the back brake plate you can't get behind the hub to try pushing it off. Brake shoes not a factor as drum is off. I agree on the danger of heat so have shied away from that. With hub facing "up" in vice I have been able to dose it good with Kroil, might help? Will try the bit at a time pressure you suggested. What a great site here, being able to find good helpful people like all of you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithb7 Posted November 3, 2023 Share Posted November 3, 2023 How did the axle shaft come out? I suspect you had the brake backing plate mounting bolts removed? I’d put the axle shaft back in. Re-install backing plate and bolts and pull that hub off the axle. Sure will be easier and do-able with the axle mounted back in place. Maybe my next video will help you? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
61polara Posted November 3, 2023 Share Posted November 3, 2023 4 hours ago, Willis38 said: The puller I'm using is quite hefty, but not dog bone type so a minus there. You really need the correct puller to get that hub off. Now we understand why you are having such a problem with it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willis38 Posted November 4, 2023 Author Share Posted November 4, 2023 Puller - if you look at Keith's video, I am using the same exact puller. Viewed video again, had seen it before, a good one, I've spent hrs of research on this and think I've seen all out there. Yes, back plate bolts were first removed, now have cylinder, shoes, etc off back plate. How did axle come out? - slide hammer bolted to lug threads, hoping to budge hub, axle came out instead! Agree and thought of putting axle back in, once up to good pressure can't fully hold in vice. Put back plate back on? May be missing something but appears to me that back plate won't come off over hub, so it's still on, bolts out and all attachments so freed up. Will try to get a pic on here today if I can. Due to being in the family, I would say this hub has been on there 83yrs! Sure amazed to see Keith's hub come off with impact wrench, I have one but sure it isn't enough umph to do the job, maybe time for an upgrade. But one would think that when axle in and a socket on there with a near 4' pipe on socket that would create enough pressure but no budge. All I can do now is thank you all for hanging with me, get a pic on here and stay at it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c49er Posted November 4, 2023 Share Posted November 4, 2023 Smooth twisting force is nothing like impact force when removing these type of hub and drums. Impact vibrations make it much easier for these hubs with drums pop loose. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willis38 Posted November 4, 2023 Author Share Posted November 4, 2023 Ok on impact. I think I've got some pics, will be putting axle back in 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
61polara Posted November 4, 2023 Share Posted November 4, 2023 5 hours ago, Willis38 said: How did axle come out? - slide hammer bolted to lug threads, hoping to budge hub, axle came out instead! Using the slide hammer setup you were actually pulling on the axle and hub in the same direction. With the drum puller, you are pushing in on the axle while pulling on the drum/hub. That's why the axle came out. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willis38 Posted November 4, 2023 Author Share Posted November 4, 2023 Agree on that, overanxious, frustrated, just didn't think it through. Bad Move! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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