Rebuilding wooden spoke wheels.

[Mattml430]

I’m about to start rebuilding the wooden spoke wheels on the 24/25 dodge tourer. 
I will try and show the whole process from start to finish and add as many pictures as I can because pictures will explain things way better than I will. 
The timber spokes in these wheels would actually be ok if it wasn’t for the wood borers that have destroyed them. 
The back wheels have the fatter spoke on every second one for extra strength bolted through the drum further out than the hub. 
I’ll knock these apart tomorrow and then sand blast the felloe’s and hubs. They will get etch primed , high build 2 pak primer and then sanded and top coated cream. 
I paint the hubs and felloe’s before assembly to save a lot of masking up. 
I do wrap 2 layers of masking tape around the outside rims of the felloe’s to protect the paint while working on them. 
You will see that during this thread. Damage done buy the wood borers. 
The new hickory boards I bought for the wheels. 
210mmx42mm x2100mm long. 
I bought 9 lengths of this at a cost of $1680. 
For these wheels I will use about 1500mm of these planks per wheel. 
It’s becoming very hard to get here in Australia. $7000 per cubic metre. 

[cudaman]

If you haven't done it already, building a wheel press will make final assembly of the wheels much easier.  Here are plans and a picture of one I built for my Model T Ford.

 

[dodge28]

Nice work and information.

I sent mine to Calima  in Pensylvania. I do not have the equipment to do it.

[Mattml430]

6 hours ago, cudaman said:

If you haven't done it already, building a wheel press will make final assembly of the wheels much easier.  Here are plans and a picture of one I built for my Model T Ford.

 

Thanks cudaman I have all the equipment to make wheels but that looks like it would work well. I use a 20t hydraulic press. 

[30DodgePanel]

By the end of this, most will realize how overdue a thread like this is. 

It's obvious to most of us in the DB/GB circles how talented Matt is, now those in other circles who stumble on this in the future will see just how talented he is and how important this information is for all.

 

Thanks Matt for your willingness to take the time to do such a thread. And thanks for pointing out how important the safety aspect is for those of us that own wood wheel cars/trucks. 

 

Will you be using the original bolts and hubs so not to invoke any screw poe poe?  

Edited September 13, 2023 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

[Mattml430]

Wheels are completely dismantled but I ran out of time to get them sandblasted. I had to go mowing 😉Those little borers turn the inside of the timber to dust. 

[30DodgePanel]

Amazing look at just how dangerous these can be to ride on.

 

[Mattml430]

6 minutes ago, 30DodgePanel said:

By the end of this, most will realize how overdue a thread like this is. 

It's obvious to most of us in the DB/GB circles how talented Matt is, now those in other circles who stumble on this in the future will see just how talented he is and how important this information is for all.

 

Thanks Matt for your willingness to take the time to do such a thread. And thanks for pointing out how important the safety aspect is for those of us that own wood wheel cars/trucks. 

 

Will you be using the original bolts and hubs so not to invoke any screw poe poe?  

Thanks Dave I hope it helps someone along the way. 
The chief of screw police (Ronny)actually put me onto a fella in the WA club that also makes wheels. He Had thousands of bolts made for wooden spoke wheels so I bought some of him not long ago. But I am starting to run out of them so I’ll need to get some more. They are pretty close to original size. 

[Mattml430]

Machining all the hickory today ready for making the spokes tomorrow. I cut all my timber to the length of the spokes only because of the machinery that I’ve got it’s easier that way for me to do it accurately. 
I rip each piece to width through my bandsaw. 
so for a spoke that needs a minimum width of 55mm i thickness the timber to 58mm. For cutting the dovetails on the end of the spoke I have made up a steel base for my compound saw. 
This part of making the spoke has to be 100% accurate. For a 12 spoke wheel the angle has to be 15degrees. I also put a tapper of 3 degrees on the dovetail so it’s a compound mitre. I use this base on my saw so I can leave the saw at 90 degrees and cut both sides of the spoke without moving the saw. 
I’ve only just made this and it’s making it a lot easier and more accurate to do the cutting. 
Here you can see the 3 degree compound cut. 
Cutting the spoke. 
 

[Mattml430]

As I’m cutting the spokes I place them in a circle, 1 to make sure they are cut perfectly and it positions them for the next part of the machining process. Placed into position. 
I number them from 1-12 and put an S or W on each one for the skinny side and the wide side. Here you can see how each spoke is sitting opposite to each other. Six wheels stacked up ready for the next step. A few extra for F k ups.  Not that that ever happens much. 😂

I have 2  rear for another job to do also. An earlier Dodge. 

They are numbered for a few different reasons. As you’ll see while making the wheel. 
 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Mattml430 (see edit history)

[Mattml430]

Felloe’s and hubs are sand blasted and a good coat of hi build on them. I’ll put some colour on them first thing so they get a couple of days drying in before I put the spokes in. 

[Rod P]

Thank you Matt for taking the time to educate us with what was once common knowledge to those involved 100 years ago. 

 

Great, clear pictures, and descriptions should help immensely  for when the time comes for us to take this step. 

 

Thanks. Rod.

[cudaman]

Great pics!  If your hubs have a radius at the inside edge, don't forget to machine a chamfer at the ID of each spoke base to make room for the hub chamfer.  Also, if you choose to stain or paint your spokes before wheel assembly, keep the paint/stain away from the faces where the spokes butt together, or it may interfere with how they fit to each other. 

[JACK M]

I am impressed !!

[cudaman]

Matt, you probably already know this, but those appear to be Kelsey felloes, they use rim bolts, clips, and rim nuts like these, readily available from the Model T vendors.

 

 

[Mattml430]

4 hours ago, cudaman said:

Matt, you probably already know this, but those appear to be Kelsey felloes, they use rim bolts, clips, and rim nuts like these, readily available from the Model T vendors.

 

 

Yes I hang onto them like gold. This car has a good full set luckily. I’ll give them a sand blast and probably do them satin black. 
I use a router to cut the bevel after machining the hole for the hub. 

[Mattml430]

Felloe’s and hubs are painted. 
They will have a good day or so drying time before I have to handle them. 

[Mattml430]

Onto turning up all the spokes. 
First up I needed to make new patterns for the copy lathe. 
I cleaned up one of the good old spokes and mounted it in the pattern spindle. The blank for the new pattern is above it. Starting the cut. The pattern is longer than the original spoke to allow for the dowel to be cut later. 
You can see there were the copy lathe picks up on every little mark or hole ,I will fill that hole on the new pattern before running new spokes  New pattern cut from the old spoke. 
The skinny spoke pattern made. 

[Mattml430]

I’m cutting all the wider spokes first up so numbering all the spokes is important. 
Marking out the end of the spokes needs to be very accurate as this pilot hole is also used for cutting the 5/8 dowel. 
I use a centre lathe drill bit to keep it as accurate as I can. 
First lot ready to go into the lathe. Starting the cut I have to slowly ease the cutters into the blanks , then once it hits the ball bearing that is running on the pattern I can start the feed motor. 
Here’s a link to a short video so you can see the copy lathe working away. It takes about 8 minutes to run a spoke through. Depending on shape and length I can adjust the speed. 

 

 

[Mattml430]

Don’t know why that video is such bad quality but hopefully you get the picture. 
I sand the spokes while they are still held in the lathe and turning. Saves trying to do them later. First set done All the fat spokes done and now run the rest on the skinny pattern. 
Front wheels. 
 

Please feel free to ask any questions if I’ve must a step you interested in and I haven’t explained it. 
we still have a bit to go but hope everyone is enjoying the thread. 

[Minibago]

ABSOLUTELY!!!

Thank you Matt.

[nearchoclatetown]

So Matt, if these are Kelsey wheels are the spokes the same width and thickness on other cars that use Kelseys? I'd have to look at the Haynes notes again but I think they were looking for contactors that could guarantee making 1000 wheels a week. That a lot of whittleing. 

[Mattml430]

18 minutes ago, nearchoclatetown said:

So Matt, if these are Kelsey wheels are the spokes the same width and thickness on other cars that use Kelseys? I'd have to look at the Haynes notes again but I think they were looking for contactors that could guarantee making 1000 wheels a week. That a lot of whittleing. 

There are so many different widths felloe’s. All the holes seem to be 5/8 but even the same make of cars have different width felloe’s. 
It seems every time I do a wheel the spokes are different so I end up making a new pattern almost every time. 
A 1000 wheels a week would make me pull my finger out. I’d have to cut back on coffee breaks. 

Edited September 15, 2023 by Mattml430 (see edit history)

[Mattml430]

so this is why I always make a couple of extra spokes. This is the result of me not tightening the lock up enough on the thread that holds the spoke in place. It starts to wind itself in. This is a close up of The ball bearing that runs on the pattern and the cutter that cuts the blank. I have used 4 makita trimmers as the motors for cutting the blanks. 
I’m well off the pace Doug I only got 4 back wheels done. The rest can wait until Monday. 

[AussieBuick]

On 9/14/2023 at 4:43 PM, Mattml430 said:

For cutting the dovetails on the end of the spoke I have made up a steel base for my compound saw. 
This part of making the spoke has to be 100% accurate. For a 12 spoke wheel the angle has to be 15degrees. I also put a tapper of 3 degrees on the dovetail so it’s a compound mitre.  I use this base on my saw so I can leave the saw at 90 degrees and cut both sides of the spoke without moving the saw. 
I’ve only just made this and it’s making it a lot easier and more accurate to do the cutting. 
Here you can see the 3 degree compound cut. 
 

Hi Matt, Great documentation of the process, I am part of the angled challenged group,  I see  the 15 degree  guide on your jig with your blade at 90 degrees but a 3 degree compound cut ? Regards Norm

 

[Mattml430]

1 hour ago, AussieBuick said:

Hi Matt, Great documentation of the process, I am part of the angled challenged group,  I see  the 15 degree  guide on your jig with your blade at 90 degrees but a 3 degree compound cut ? Regards Norm

 

The way I use to do it was I had the spoke at 90 degrees to the saw fence and then changed the angle of the blade left to right and also tilted the blade at 3 degrees for each cut. This was very time consuming and left a chance of an error to occur. The way I do it now is by leaving the saw at 90 degrees to the fence and table. I made a steel plate jig with the 15 degree angles for the dovetail and if you look in the picture the base has a 6 degree bend in it. 3 degrees either side of the 90 degree blade. The screws at the back allow me to adjust the depth of the dovetail to suit the centre of the hub. So now I can cut both sides of the spokes without moving the saw. 
the jig is screwed to the saw so it’s in exactly the same spot each time and can’t move. 
It took a bit of getting it right but now it’s done it works really well. 
 

I hope I’ve explained that to you clearly enough norm and not confused the situation more. 

[nearchoclatetown]

Matt, I am sure it's kind of fun doing a few wheels every once in a while. It would be neat to see the progress. But can you imagine doing hundreds or thousands a week every day, every week? There would have certainly been guys turning spokes and others drilling and others assembling. Thanks for sharing the process.

[cutdown]

Great work Matt. You have made some excellent tools to do that work. Looking forward to see the rest of the exercise.

 

Dereck

 

[AussieBuick]

22 hours ago, Mattml430 said:

I hope I’ve explained that to you clearly enough norm and not confused the situation more. 

On board now Thanks Matt looking forward to your next installment .. Norm

Edited September 16, 2023 by AussieBuick (see edit history)

[Mattml430]

5 hours ago, cutdown said:

Great work Matt. You have made some excellent tools to do that work. Looking forward to see the rest of the exercise.

 

Dereck

 

Thanks Dereck. It took me about a month to build the copy lathe there was a fair bit of trial and error to get it to work correctly. Different cutters and different ball bearing rollers. It ended up being a 25mm radius cutter and ball that worked the best. They give the nicest shape radius at the bottom of the spoke. A friend of mine helped me set up the electrics for the motors. They are 3phase motors running a DC converter to control the speed. I still used chains and sprockets to reduce the speed a bit so the motor would run at a decent speed. Once I got all the little adjustments made it work’s really well. Much better than doing 1 at a time like I was originally. That was a bit painful. 

[John E. Guitar]

Great work and thanks for documenting the process.

 

I came across this article in an old Autocar magazine showing the two spoke tapers. It makes assembly a lot easier than using a spoke press.

 

I don't think it was that common on US cars. 

 

[Mattml430]

With all the spokes cut we come to what I think is the most important part of building the wheel. Getting the right crush on the spokes is so important and I have found with my method of measuring them I allow about 1.5-2.0mm more than the diameter of the rim. 
The rim needs to be measured across at least 3 positions to get a good average. 
I ended up with an average off about 539-540 through all four rims/felloe’s. I use a square piece of stainless to get a good reading of the bench. 
I’ve made this set out for all different size wheels I’ve done it’s my little bible. I’m going to mark all my spoke at about 541mm which will be 2mm larger overall than the rim. This will create a fair bit of crush on the spokes when pressing them. 

Next I use a large hose clamp and get the spokes in as tight as possible, the centre must be as circular as you can get it  

Centre of the spokes on the pattern. Once it’s all lined up then I use a circle of my pattern at the correct measurement in this case 541mm. And mark up each spoke with a razor blade. This give a really accurate measurement for the next step of cutting the dowels. 

[Mattml430]

Cutting the dowels. 
I’ve set up my old metal lathe to cut the dowels. 
I use a chisel blade to do the cut and I have a slight tapper at the shoulder so it fits into the pressing of the felloe’s to give a nice snug fit. You can see a slight tapper at the end of the dowel. 
Once the dowels are all cut I keep the spokes in order for fitting them into the felloe’s. 
I have found fitting the spokes in opposite to each other Is the best way to keep them exactly as that. Opposite to each other. 
by fitting them 1-12 you can slowly get out by the time number 12 goes in. 
working my way around checking after each spoke is fitted they are still opposite to each other. the last two spokes to go in you want to make sure the tapper is at the smallest side to the bottom. That needs to be worked out before the first one goes in. I know all this for a very good reason. 😂

Because I’ve done it wrong. 
with all the spokes in the last 2 are slightly higher than the others but I don’t worry about that as the press soon sorts that out. 
I use a jig in the centre of the wheel to keep the spokes up at the correct height. I keep all this bolted to the bench while I bash the spokes in with a hammer. I also use a bit of soapy water on the dowels and spray a bit onto the mitres so when pressing them together they have a bit of slip. 

[Mattml430]

Pressing the spokes into the felloe’s. Angled ready for pressing. I use a plate top and bottom. I press them a little passed centre and let them spring back. Pressed ready for machining the front and rear face. 

[Mattml430]

Machining the faces and centre hub hole.

I built this facing machine from an old lathe I saw at a scrap metal yard. It had about an 8’ bed on it and I got the cross slide and tailstock for about $60. Stuck a motor and table on it and welded it all together. 

 

 
I use a small router over the top of a spinning table which is attached to the cross slide. Rear of the wheel faced to accommodate the drum. 
when facing the front I use a ball bearing to get the felloe as central as I can. Generally I try to get the felloe to touch in about at least 3 evenly spaced spots around the outside. They aren’t exactly very true, normally within 2-3mm or a bit less. Basically face the front of the same as the back but have it true for machining the centre out. I use the same router and just lower it down and turn the table slowly by hand. 
wheel finished ready for the hub to be pressed in, drilled and painted. 

[Fordy]

Lovely work and a very informative read. Luckily someone has already done that on the A series Hupp I have just aquired - I would bet it cost them more than what I paid for the car!

[Minibago]

Remarkable range of skills you are showing us including design / development, thank you Matt.

[Mattml430]

Thanks fellas it’s all about trying to give a little back to everyone that has helped me so much here on the dodge forum. Hopefully it’s shown a few techniques of putting them together. 
Spokes could definitely be made on a normal wood lathe and a thread press that was shown earlier. 
I should be able to get onto the refinishing of them over the next couple of days. 

[Machinist_Bill]

I've been watching this thread, and being a machinist, I have seen all kinds of machinery. But I have to tell you that I have been to 3 whorehouses, 2 County fairs, and one Hog butcherin' and have NEVER seen anything like this!

Your creative use of an old lathe to make a vertical boring mill is very impressive! Nice work!

 

Bill

[Mattml430]

Wheels are all together and stained with one coat of clear. 
Before the last coat of clear I will press the hubs in and drill the holes. 
I like to get a coat of paint over all the Timber before bolting it all together.