drhach Posted June 19, 2023 Share Posted June 19, 2023 Hello all, I have thread about my car in "Me and My Buick", but I wanted to approach a wider audience here. The car is a 1942 Special. I was told about this issue when I bought the car. But it wasn't fully clear to me because the car had some running issues that needed to be sorted out first. Now that I can drive the car, here is what I'm experiencing. When I shift in to second, it feels like it has engaged but when I let the clutch out it either does nothing (freewheels) or grinds if I'm still holding the shifter. Sometimes I can finesse it into gear. But mostly not. I adjusted the shifter according to the manual. There are two rods that can be adjusted. The "Selector rod" which is what moves back and forth when the Shifter is in Neutral and the "shifter rod" which shifts the transmission either from reverse to first or second to third. I was able to adjust the selector rod just fine. However, I used up all of the threads in the shifter rod in order to get it even close. You're supposed to put the transmission in second gear and then adjust the clevis to affect a 1/8" gap at the steering column shift lever. In order to do this, I had to sue up all of the threads on the rod and fully screw the clevis down. I replaced all of the selector rod bushings and it definitely improved the feel of shifting but didn't really solve the issue. It feels like if I could just give it a little more of a nudge, it would go in to gear. To me, this almost suggests a bent shifter fork. The car does fine in first, reverse and third. I have noticed that there's quite a bit of play in the idler lever, but it seems like this system would tolerate that. There's no mention of this particular issue in the manual. It talks about "pop out" and grinding but this is really more about not wanting to fully engage. I would happily double clutch it if it was simply a synchro issue. But it won't go in to gear at all. The few times I have gotten it in to ger, it stays there. It hasn't popped out at all. I'm curious if anyone has experienced this and may have some thoughts. I'm not averse to pulling the transmission, but if it isn't necessary, I'd rather not do it, of course. Regards, Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldtech Posted June 19, 2023 Share Posted June 19, 2023 Does it go in to reverse properly? if so, the issue is likely in the transmission. I believe the idea of the 1/8 clearance - checked in both second and third, is to center the shift lever in the gap in the column. If this is correct the travel should be limited only by the transmission shift lever. If it goes into reverse properly that should mean the shifter is doing it's job as it is the same lever on the transmission . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted June 20, 2023 Share Posted June 20, 2023 If 1942 is like my 1950, the shift rod brackets are frame mounted. Therefore, if the engine mounts are not right, the relationship may be kaput. Ben 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drhach Posted June 20, 2023 Author Share Posted June 20, 2023 The car does go in to reverse properly. Also, the travel of the shift lever is the same in both directions, meaning it moves fully to the stop up (R and 2) and fully to the stop down (2 and 3). This is true even though I've adjusted the clevis all the way down. Also, it went into R,1, and 3, just fine before I adjusted it and also went stop to stop before I adjusted it. Basically, adjusting the clevis changed nothing about the system. The thing that I'm hung up on is what could use up all of the adjustment on the clevis. I added a picture below. It's threaded so far that it actually hits the lever arm when in reverse or second, (which probably doesn't help). It would seem if I adjusted it that far, there would be even more of a gap on the first and third throw of the shift lever on the column, but they still travel the full amount and there's no 1/8" gap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drhach Posted June 20, 2023 Author Share Posted June 20, 2023 Possibly stupid question, but I am missing this clip. The spring is just hanging there and the clip is gone. Would that affect this issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldtech Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 The spring would help. It helps the lever hold up or down. Can you put it in second then get underneath and see if the lever is up as far as it will go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drhach Posted June 21, 2023 Author Share Posted June 21, 2023 (edited) I'll try that. The way I look at that spring, it seems like it would hold it in third better than in second. But I really don't know because it's gone :). Obviously Buick thought it was a good idea for it to be there. I just haven't found anything in the manual that discusses its real purpose. I thought maybe it was some sort of anti-rattle spring. Bob's sells new ones and I have it on order. So, whether it helps or not, I'll get it installed. After writing this, I did a little searching. The 1950 Manual shows a better picture of the toggle spring and briefly discusses what it does. It seems that the way the "toggle extension" is installed, it is normally held in a centered position and shifting tips it either way so that the spring can pull on it. The damage may be done, but this needs to be there either way. Edited June 21, 2023 by drhach (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 Does it go into high OK?, You dont mention that. 2nd and high are on the same sliding sleeve, are operated by the same fork and are on the same shift rail. An un-likely, but possible, issue is that one of the holding screws on the levers operating the shift rail or fork may be loose. But if that was so, high would be a problem too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drhach Posted June 21, 2023 Author Share Posted June 21, 2023 It goes in to high ok. The strange thing is that before I adjusted it, when the clevis was about in the middle of the threaded portion of the rod, all other gears worked fine (except second). Now that I've threaded the clevis to the very bottom of the threads. there's no change in anything. I would have almost expected first and third gears to be a little worse, but they still work fine even though I used up all of the adjustment in favor of second gear. Usually, an extreme movement like this has some effect on another part of the system. But in this case, nothing changed either way. Second didn't get better and the rest didn't get worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted June 22, 2023 Share Posted June 22, 2023 Your situation is very strange and doesent make sense - not that you are doing anything wrong. I think the transmission is suspect. However, diognosis on something like this "remote control", without actually seeing what is going on, is nearly impossible. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NailheadBob Posted June 22, 2023 Share Posted June 22, 2023 (edited) Sounds like you exhausted all linkage issues, except for the extension for spring to attach to that you are waiting for. I would drive car till reaches operating temperatures, then while still hot drain transmission fluid and inspect it condition and if any metal particles in it, fill transmission back up with mineral oil OR kerosene and drive car again to clean inside of transmission (incase some thing has built up causing parts to stick) and drain again. Maybe retainer broke for second gear synchronizing drum causing drum not to fully engage on 2nd gear. I will attach some photo's If you remove transmission, make sure clip is holding in clutch support will be loose if you try to move it when transmission installed you can view it once clutch inspection cover removed (if missing may cause shifter to pop out of gear) but should not affect getting into gear. @DonMicheletti is the most knowledgeable man I know on Buick transmissions, @drhach you have the best giving you advice. Bob Edited June 22, 2023 by NailheadBob Add photos (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drhach Posted June 22, 2023 Author Share Posted June 22, 2023 1 hour ago, DonMicheletti said: Your situation is very strange and doesent make sense - not that you are doing anything wrong. I think the transmission is suspect. However, diognosis on something like this "remote control", without actually seeing what is going on, is nearly impossible. Yes, I completely agree on all of your points. I was hoping to find someone here who had at least experienced a similar issue. It sounds like that won't be happening. The external physics of this just don't add up to me but clearly the issue remains. If the toggle extension doesn't fix it, I don't think there's much more to look at outside of the transmission. The engine mount theory seems to have some merit and I'll confirm that I don't have any shifted or broken mounts. My first theory was a bent shifter fork. That may allow it to overstroke in one direction. But there's only one way to find out. I'm leaving town for a week so I won't be able to spend any time on this until after the 4th of July. My toggle extension should be here waiting for me when I return and it probably will take me longer to crawl under and back out from under the car then it will to install it. So, I should know pretty quickly if that solves it. I'll be sure to report my findings when I have something to say. Thanks everyone for your input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted June 23, 2023 Share Posted June 23, 2023 Have you tried disconnecting the shifter linkage and shifting the transmission 'by hand'? With the rear wheels off the ground can you shift through all 3 gears and reverse? If 2nd gear works this way, what is the position of the shift lever? Does that jibe with the position that the linkage is trying to place it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drhach Posted June 23, 2023 Author Share Posted June 23, 2023 Thanks for those suggestions, Em Tee, I haven't tried them yet. I'll add them to the list. At the moment under all circumstances so far, the car goes in to the other three gear every time and without issue. I think at this point, I need my parts to get here from Bob's so that I can rule out the question of the toggle spring. Whether or not it is the source of my problem, it is missing and should be replaced. I'm trying to get everything to factory spec. Regards, Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted June 24, 2023 Share Posted June 24, 2023 I'm curious as to what you find because if it goes into 2nd by hand, but the lever position doesn't look correct, maybe the lever is wrong or the entire transmission was swapped from a different car? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drhach Posted July 5, 2023 Author Share Posted July 5, 2023 A few updates, I have disconnected the linkage and shifted the transmission by hand. It travels the full throw as if it was connected. I got my clip and new spring installed. It made zero difference. Before After I think at this point there isn't to learn about this from the outside of the box. Its time to start thinking inside the box The car still does not want to go in to gear when shifting from 1-2 or 2-3. There's no issue with any other gear in terms of function. One thing that I tried that I hadn't done previously was to start in second gear. It will start out in second gear and shift to third (I tried it maybe 6-7 times). But it did also pop out of second gear once and I still can't down shift to second from third once I'm underway. I'm pretty well convinced that it is an internal issue at this point. Next steps will be to pull the trans and open it up for inspection. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted July 5, 2023 Share Posted July 5, 2023 (edited) It will be interesting to hear what you find. This is a very unusual situation. On backing the torque tube away. If you block the brake line, upon disconnecting it, you can get away without bleeding the brakes on reassebly. Edited July 5, 2023 by DonMicheletti (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NailheadBob Posted July 6, 2023 Share Posted July 6, 2023 (edited) @DonMicheletti made a transmission holding fixture/stand, and he allowed me to copy it, I will list what I used and where I purchased items from. Steel plate from Metal Supermarkets, picked out of there "Drop Zone" (1/2" thick x 5" wide x 11" long) for $5.00 Menards sku # 680-2377 MIP x FIP Stainless Steel Pipe Reducer Bushing $3.02 Menards sku # 201-5527 3/8"-16x1" plain hex drive coarse thread socket cap screw $1.15 Bob EDIT: @john hess gave me dimensions of Tool number J-1334 (7/8"x 29/64") and the paint I used was Rust-Oleum leafy green from Menards sku # 557-4846 (really close match to Kent-Moore tool green color) Edited July 6, 2023 by NailheadBob (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drhach Posted July 6, 2023 Author Share Posted July 6, 2023 That's a great looking stand. Thanks for the tips everyone. I guess I'll do the torque ball while I have this thing out. It's like a swamp around that transmission. Everything is so soaked, that I can't even tell where it's leaking from. I'm trying to avoidn the "while I'm in there" syndrome with this. A guy could go pretty crazy replacing things. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted July 6, 2023 Share Posted July 6, 2023 That "while I am there " thing can also cause an "accidental restoration".....Been there! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john hess Posted July 6, 2023 Share Posted July 6, 2023 10 minutes ago, DonMicheletti said: That "while I am there " thing can also cause an "accidental restoration".....Been there! ha... yes,8 years later got that oil leak fixed..... and whole car gone over.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john hess Posted July 6, 2023 Share Posted July 6, 2023 On 6/24/2023 at 6:25 AM, EmTee said: I'm curious as to what you find because if it goes into 2nd by hand, but the lever position doesn't look correct, maybe the lever is wrong or the entire transmission was swapped from a different car? doesn't look the same as my 53 pontiac (shift lever)... but.. have you checked for excessive wear on one side of the shift shaft where it is attached to the shift lever ?.. may need weld build up and reground.... this can cause full travel one way but not quite enough travel on the other.. hence the grind,grind, engaging issue. Since you are saying 2 gear is the issue this is suspect to me. I have one apart on the bench right now with this shift shaft wear issue..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drhach Posted July 6, 2023 Author Share Posted July 6, 2023 You're talking about wear on the shaft inside the case or wear in the hole where the shift rod goes into the lever? Can you post a picture of what you're describing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john hess Posted July 6, 2023 Share Posted July 6, 2023 nothing inside, all external... just left house... send you something about 45 min... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john hess Posted July 6, 2023 Share Posted July 6, 2023 shift rod, not shift shaft...my bad.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john hess Posted July 6, 2023 Share Posted July 6, 2023 On 6/24/2023 at 6:25 AM, EmTee said: I'm curious as to what you find because if it goes into 2nd by hand, but the lever position doesn't look correct, maybe the lever is wrong or the entire transmission was swapped from a different car? I'm with EmTee also. shift lever doesn't look quite right.. Even though mine is 53 pontiac, transmission is the same..(buick series40) not sure about shift lever though. maybe early years are different. your over-ceter spring that you just got should cure coming out of gear. Here are the pictures I was talking about. Not the picture of the shifter linkage wear, but the same concept.. this is of the clutch push rod. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john hess Posted July 6, 2023 Share Posted July 6, 2023 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john hess Posted July 6, 2023 Share Posted July 6, 2023 A thought ...... since you say the transmission is like a swamp, leaks I presume, have you checked the oil level ? As silly as this seems, we often overlook the obvious.... been there, done that.... that's why I ask...... This will cause the grinding, as there is no oil friction to slow gears down or even allow synchronizer cones to work.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drhach Posted July 6, 2023 Author Share Posted July 6, 2023 I'll check it out. Most of the system has rubber bushings (which I've replaced). But they could have worn through at some previous point and caused rod wear. I'll pull it all off and give it a good look. I've also considered that the rods are either not proper or bent. but I'm hesitant to start tweaking things to make them fit. In spite of a few glaring issues with the intake and exhaust system, the car seems pretty unmolested. I'm racking my brain trying to come up with some way to by-pass the column shifter and shift by hand. Just to rule out any weirdness in the linkage. Definitely I'll pull the linkage off and give it good cleaning and once over. Regarding the oil level, I drained and replaced it for that very reason. There was quite a bit in there (I didn't measure it) and it looked pretty clean. it also didn't have the old timey gear lube smell. So, I think it was changed in the last few decades. Regards, Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daves1940Buick56S Posted July 7, 2023 Share Posted July 7, 2023 Unfortunately the '42 doesn't have that convenient opening in the floor over the trans like '40 on back. Makes troubleshooting these kind of issues much easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted July 7, 2023 Share Posted July 7, 2023 The fact that the trans will not do into 2nd with the linkage disconnected (If I read it right), says there is no linkage problem, but an internal probelm. I rather doubt that oil situation would have any affect at all - it goes into other gears. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drhach Posted July 9, 2023 Author Share Posted July 9, 2023 Just for giggles, I went through the whole linkage assembly again and inspected everything. No appreciable wear indicated. No holes out of round. I think the Buick method of using bushings eliminates that issue. I had a thought last night. Something I hadn't considered before. I tried double clutching while driving. The transmission performed flawlessly. It shifts in to and stays in second gear. I can down shift and it stays in gear. If I don't double clutch it acts up immediately. So to me, that pretty clearly points to a synchro. My previous experience with a bad synchro is that the gear will actually grind when you try to stick it in gear. That wasn't really the case here and it threw me for a loop. I wouldn't describe the behavior as "jump out" either, as the manual calls it. Also, the adjustment being used up was kind of a false signal too. Obviously that's an issue but maybe not "the" issue. Perhaps the synchro is so worn that it is using up the adjustment in the shift rod. I don't know. But I'll find out when I get in there. I ordered a synchro from Bob's as well as a gasket kit and new bearings. I think I also ordered a sliding gear just for good measure. We'll see if it needs anything else when I get it open. Regards, Dan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted July 9, 2023 Share Posted July 9, 2023 I think you're on the right track. Take a look at the thread below where @Bloo goes through a very similar transmission in his '36 Pontiac. https://forums.aaca.org/topic/375070-36-pontiac-surprise-gearbox-overhaul-like-buick-40/#comment-2337173 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raydurr Posted July 9, 2023 Share Posted July 9, 2023 Just thinking. My 29 likes thick and heavy transmission lube. If your synchros are worn the heavyer thicker oil used in older cars might assist in the shifting. It wouldnt cost much money or time to try. I know all the philosophers will roll their eyes on this but its easy and inexpensive to try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted July 9, 2023 Share Posted July 9, 2023 4 hours ago, EmTee said: I think you're on the right track. Take a look at the thread below where @Bloo goes through a very similar transmission in his '36 Pontiac. I hesitated to comment because although I am not sure, I don't think those springs that failed in my transmission were still used in 42, despite the fact that the transmission is still essentially the same design. I am not sure what Buick used instead of the springs. 15 hours ago, drhach said: I had a thought last night. Something I hadn't considered before. I tried double clutching while driving. The transmission performed flawlessly. It shifts in to and stays in second gear. I can down shift and it stays in gear. If I don't double clutch it acts up immediately. So to me, that pretty clearly points to a synchro. My previous experience with a bad synchro is that the gear will actually grind when you try to stick it in gear. That wasn't really the case here and it threw me for a loop. I wouldn't describe the behavior as "jump out" either, as the manual calls it. Also, the adjustment being used up was kind of a false signal too. Obviously that's an issue but maybe not "the" issue. Perhaps the synchro is so worn that it is using up the adjustment in the shift rod. I don't know. But I'll find out when I get in there. I think your initial view of synchro trouble is the correct one. I'm not really sure why double clutching is helping so much here, but your description sounds more like lost motion than a bad synchro. Maybe a worn or broken shift fork, or a fork that has become loose from the shaft. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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