Les Murray Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 any solutions to friction drive material Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cudaman Posted January 11, 2023 Share Posted January 11, 2023 Go to the original manufacturer, they are still in business. http://www.paperpulleys.com/pages/home.html 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boxhead Posted January 16, 2023 Share Posted January 16, 2023 Is anyone using a modern alternative material successfully in there friction drive car? Looking for other options to fit in another early car not a Metz. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted January 16, 2023 Share Posted January 16, 2023 I gent in Australia used rubber conveyor belt material (the type with canvas in the center). You buy a section the correct width and cut the circular pieces close to size, then stack them on your wheel. Then you can trim them right in the vehicle using a belt sander held firmly in place with angle iron or the like as the wheel turns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Albright Posted January 16, 2023 Share Posted January 16, 2023 Paper pulleys inc has been providing friction drive wheels to Metz owners for decades. Nice people 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nsbrassnut Posted January 16, 2023 Share Posted January 16, 2023 Hi Another option. I used to have a mixed up '12 Metz that a previous owner "restored". He had replaced the paper section with a solid 2 inch thick rubber wheel. The solid rubber wheel doesn't work well. The slight differences in speed from side to side of the wheel twisted the rubber chipping the sides. I didn't know about the Paper Pulleys option at the time. I thought that rubber would be a good material to try, but in layers. I went to a local industrial gasket shop with a drawing pattern for the drive wheel rings, complete with the bolt pattern. I had them cut several rings from 1/4" thick neoprene, enough to build up the width of the driven wheel. The result worked well. Good transmission of power with little or no slippage. The one thing to watch was that using the rubber resulted in a "soft" pressure pedal. It didn't take much pressure to engage the clutch with no slipping. Too much pressure just wasted power on over pressing on the rubber, similar to an under inflated tire. There are likely other similar materials that could be used the same way. Good luck. Jeff 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Mead Posted January 16, 2023 Share Posted January 16, 2023 That’s interesting Jeff. I think you may have hit on a viable alternative. We used Paper Pulleys for the O-We-Go Cyclecar very successfully. Counter to your experience, it took a pretty substantial push to get things going. But once moving, the whole deal is pretty tractable. I did notice that I had to make 2 or 3 readjustments initially until the paper compressed to a stable state. JimMead Owego, NY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne sheldon Posted January 16, 2023 Share Posted January 16, 2023 Fifty years ago, I knew a fellow that had a couple Metz cars. He used a stack of leather for the driven wheel. Worked quite well. He drove the car a lot! And one time, at a car show, a couple smart @$$@$ made him a bet about starting from a dead stop at the bottom of a very steep short hill out of the football field field where the show was held. Unbeknownst to him, they had crawled under his car, and soaked the driving and driven wheels with oil from a squirt oil can! (I didn't know this at the moment, but heard about it a bit later.) I just happened to be in the right place to see as he drove up to the steep ramp, and stopped with his front wheels just starting the climb. Then he slid the wheel into a very low gear(less) position, and zipped right up and over the top! It was then after losing the bet that his "friends" loudly admitted to soaking the friction wheels with oil! When he heard about it later, he just laughed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Schramm Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 If it were mine, I would use the original paper wheel made by the original company that made them the first time. The mechanism of the "transmission" was designed by the vehicle engineers for that paper part and if you use a different material it probably has a different coefficient of friction that may put different stresses on the rest of the system maybe leading to a failure somewhere in the drivetrain when engaged. Just IMO. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne sheldon Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 boxhead is looking for potential alternatives for a non-Metz. I am really curious what it could be. There were a lot of cars pre1918 using friction drive. Nearly half the high wheel automobiles (including Sears!) were friction drive. Cartercar is well known, Lambert less so. Several cyclecars also used friction drive. A good internet friend has a very interesting unknown including era photos showing it to be a real thing! So there are a lot of possibilities for cars and even trucks using friction drive needing alternatives. I would first highly recommend Paper Pulleys for any Metz as they are the original thing and company (as long as they continue to be available!). And Paper Pulleys may be the best option for many other applications. Or not. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boxhead Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 First apologies to Les Murray if I’ve taken over his thread but hopefully the useful information is relevant to his original question. My car is one off 1913 made friction drive Cyclecar made in Australia called a Husband. Because I’m in Australia and because it’s a one off it maybe difficult for Paper Pulleys to help me but I haven’t contacted them as yet. I have spoken to a Metz owner here in Australia who is also using neoprene so it could be worth trying. Any other successful options are appreciated. Thanks Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Mead Posted January 17, 2023 Share Posted January 17, 2023 There is also the question of the mating surface. The original O-We-Go literature indicated an aluminum mating plate. The driving wheel showed that it had had a surface plate, a quarter inch thick. We recreated that, and fastened it as it had been originally. The aluminum and the paper work well together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Bamford Posted January 19, 2023 Share Posted January 19, 2023 (edited) My 1906 Orient Buckboard (predecessor to the Metz) had a 1/4" reversible aluminum drive plate and the driven wheel was faced with a brake lining material bonded and riveted to a mystery wood ring 1" wide and about 1" thick, which in turn was bolted to a cast hub and felloe. I've run the car every year since 1994, to the point that the lining had worn down to the rivets and the drive plate had circular grooves in the common drive positions (most prominently the 'over-centre' reverse position as that provides the most effective braking). With the drive plate worn on both sides and the lining shot, it was time to replace both, which I did in the original (to me, at least) fashion. Rough-cutting the replacement drive plate: New drive plate in place on the flywheel: Woven brake lining glued and clamped around the wooden substrate. The completed assembly is fitted around the driven wheel casting, right, and thru-bolted/clamped between the casting and the brass clamp ring. Belt & suspenders: The lining is also riveted through the wood lining, with the inner end of each rivet peened over a small countersunk flat washer. Completed driven wheel assembly mounted on the jackshaft. My assistant was in the middle of a fruitless search for salmon treats. Edited January 19, 2023 by Chris Bamford (see edit history) 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gossp Posted January 20, 2023 Share Posted January 20, 2023 The guys at paper pulleys are surprisingly well versed in dealing with oddball and one off applications. When we needed new friction material for a Cartercar they provided us with instructions on how to get them measurements that would turn into a successful part being produced…. And it did. They have no interest in making an expensive one-off part nobody can use, they want to get it right. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Murray Posted July 24, 2023 Author Share Posted July 24, 2023 Fascinating stuff! Just relooked at this stream again and the latest detail on using Neoprene, also brake lining rivitted . Great pics! I have found the paper pulley company good but I was still getting too much slip. I have now made an Aluminum ring ( replacing the whole paperpulley material) with correct hole centres but 5/16, 8 mm smaller diameter than required to which is bonded an 8mm brake ling material. The choice of material is critical. A much older foreman at Industrial Brakes in UK advised it should be a "cotton fibre " brake lining. I have fitted it and it so far (200 miles) it is working very well. I have also made up the same aluminium ring and had a polypropylene 8mm bonded to it. I have not tried it yet. Note Cartercar 1911 advertising 50% gradient no problem. See pic of 1914 Brittania sole survivor. My flywheel is steel! All others seem to be aluminium; is this a problem? If so why? Look forwards to chat! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Murray Posted July 24, 2023 Author Share Posted July 24, 2023 How can I contact Chris Bamford? I do not ave enough points to do so here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted July 24, 2023 Share Posted July 24, 2023 If you click his name, you can send him a message. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mechanician Posted July 24, 2023 Share Posted July 24, 2023 Neat machine! If the paper does not hold up you could try Kevlar friction lining, although the coefficient of friction will be likely lower than that of cotton. I don’t see a significant difference aluminum vs steel, although the ability to renew the plate on the Metz design is nice. I am presuming the surface of your flywheel is not removable? The vehicle being so light I suspect you will not wear it away to nothing with reasonable use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted July 24, 2023 Share Posted July 24, 2023 41 minutes ago, Les Murray said: Fascinating stuff! Just relooked at this stream again and the latest detail on using Neoprene, also brake lining rivitted . Great pics! I have found the paper pulley company good but I was still getting too much slip. I have now made an Aluminum ring ( replacing the whole paperpulley material) with correct hole centres but 5/16, 8 mm smaller diameter than required to which is bonded an 8mm brake ling material. The choice of material is critical. A much older foreman at Industrial Brakes in UK advised it should be a "cotton fibre " brake lining. I have fitted it and it so far (200 miles) it is working very well. I have also made up the same aluminium ring and had a polypropylene 8mm bonded to it. I have not tried it yet. Note Cartercar 1911 advertising 50% gradient no problem. See pic of 1914 Brittania sole survivor. My flywheel is steel! All others seem to be aluminium; is this a problem? If so why? Look forwards to chat! That is cool! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne sheldon Posted July 24, 2023 Share Posted July 24, 2023 Sorry M-V, I don't know how many posts or points are needed before he can use the Personal Messages here, but I think he is still short of it. Les M, As to the cast iron versus aluminum drive flywheel? I don't know the actual best answer, but I do know that a good friend a long time ago had a cast iron drive flywheel and it worked great! He loved to be challenged to climbing stairs or very steep driveways by other antique automobile people. I don't think he ever lost a bet. I went to a locally held AACA event about fifty years ago, he was there. The car show was held on the football field of a large high school. It was a typical football field set down from the surrounding area with bleachers along both sides. The only way in or out for the cars was an about eight to ten foot high roughly forty degree climb! That was there for tractors to go in and out for field maintenance. All the other cars took an about four mph run at the slope, and at that, many required a bit of a push to get over the top by club members standing ready to give a final shove. Someone had made a substantial bet with him that the little friction drive Metz couldn't make it from a dead stop, and then squirted oil all over the drive disc! He pulled up, pushing the front wheels to where the steepest angle began (most resistance to starting out!). Paused until everyone was satisfied with his starting point, then shot up the incline over and out like it wasn't there! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne sheldon Posted July 24, 2023 Share Posted July 24, 2023 The Cartercar was a different thing. Byron Carter was an automotive engineer. His design was a vast improvement over all other friction drive ideas. He countered the offset balances inherent in basic friction drive systems using a "boxed set" of driving and driven wheels. This created a much more positive transfer of power without the stresses created by most friction drive systems. Byron Carter was a minor partner and engineer for the Jackson Automobile company. When the other partners refused to use his design on Jackson's cars, he sold his interest in them and started his own automobile manufacturing company to build the Cartercar. His design worked very well, and the cars were selling quickly, proving themselves all over the country! Sadly, Byron Carter died from a tragic accident before he had a real chance to truly make his mark in the industry. General Motors partially out of respect, partially out of pity, bought the Cartercar company from Byron Carter's family. GM continued to build the cars for a few years, and did advertise them somewhat. However, GM had already invested a bunch of money and owned many patents for conventional clutch and sliding gear technologies. So the Cartercar was allowed to quietly slip away after a few years, and there facilities folded into other GM marques. Byron Carter himself was a visionary! Had he not sadly died so young, there is a very good chance that a significant percentage of automobiles manufactured by the late 1910s and possibly for decades longer would have used his friction drive transmission. His death also pushed forward the development of the electric starter for gasoline automobiles. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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