1957 Buick Special Runs Hot in Traffic-Suggestions?

[NailheadBob]

Trying to help a friend who owns a 1957 Buick Special with Dynaflow and NO air conditioning, runs hot in traffic or at slow speeds, but on expressway is normal. He replace thermostat with a 160 degree and flushed cooling system, then replaced water pump, then took radiator out and sent to radiator shop and had it tested and cleaned and replaced radiator cap, then removed core plugs in block and did find a lot of crud in block and flushed it out and put new core plugs in and flushed cooling system 2 more times, but is still runs hot in traffic or at slow speeds, and other suggestions, or do any other 1957 Buick Special owners have same issue?

 

Thank You in Advance,

 

Bob

[Bhigdog]

Assuming he has the correct fan and the shroud is in place, after all that I'd replace the radiator shop, then more than likely, the radiator core...................Bob

Edited August 8, 2022 by Bhigdog (see edit history)

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Define hot.  Does it reach a max?

 

  Ben

[NailheadBob]

2 hours ago, Bhigdog said:

Assuming he has the correct fan and the shroud is in place, after all that I'd replace the radiator shop, then more than likely, the radiator core...................Bob

The factory shroud is in place, and radiator factory fan 4 blade, was replaced with a 5 blade fan.

 

2 hours ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

Define hot.  Does it reach a max?

 

  Ben

Factory temperature gauge, 1 needle width before "H" 

 

Bob

[Bhigdog]

Next step would be to check the rad tank with an infra red "gun". If it is indeed "hot" I would see if I could find a shop to rod out the core. Chances are you won't find one or if you do the tubes will be too caked solid or the rodding will find/cause any number of leaks. My guess he is either looking at a correct re-core ($1000/1200) or fitting some after market aluminum thingy.. Hope I'm wrong but I'm guessing not........Bob

[avgwarhawk]

In my experience the heads may need to have the core plugs removed and water jacket cleaned out. If there was crud in the block it is also in the heads. Anyway, my 54 ran hot at stops and slow speeds.  Ruined my heads. Sourced replacement heads. Rebuilt them. No more running hot at slow speeds or stoplights. 

Edited August 8, 2022 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[old-tank]

2 hours ago, NailheadBob said:

Factory temperature gauge, 1 needle width before "H" 

Need to verify the actual temperature.  Some factory gauges are pegged hot at only 200*F and of course those gauges are still pegged at 250*F.  That is why I added an ugly hanging under the dash gauge with real numbers.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

3 hours ago, old-tank said:

Need to verify the actual temperature.  Some factory gauges are pegged hot at only 200*F and of course those gauges are still pegged at 250*F.  That is why I added an ugly hanging under the dash gauge with real numbers.

 

 Yes.  And does the temp stop there or will it continue to climb?

 

  Ben

[NailheadBob]

@Ben Bruce aka First Born  And does the temp stop there or will it continue to climb?

 

He usually pulls over at that time, and lets the car sit to cool down, OR if he is ready to get on expressway, he will get on expressway and continue to drive and at expressway speeds the temperature will go back down to just past "N" (1 gauge needle width past "N")

 

Bob

[Smartin]

Verify timing is not retarded, and vacuum advance is functional. 

 

If the radiator was clogged, you would see overheating problems on the highway.

[60FlatTop]

Put the car in neutral on a level floor and see if you can make it roll by pushing with your foot. I have seen many people overlook dragging brakes when diagnosing overheating or poor performance symptoms.

 

At a cruise night one time a Cadillac owner was complaining about the puddle from his radiator overflow. Four of us walked away from the car to get food. He stopped and said "OH! I forgot." Then went back to the car and pulled the brake pedal up by hand. He said if he didn't do that the brake lights would run down the battery. We fixed the puddle, made to car faster, and got better gas mileage. Just from that one little clue.

Another of the four asked "Would that make transmission fluid blow out of the fill tube on my car?" Fixed that one, too.

[avgwarhawk]

6 hours ago, NailheadBob said:

@Ben Bruce aka First Born  And does the temp stop there or will it continue to climb?

 

He usually pulls over at that time, and lets the car sit to cool down, OR if he is ready to get on expressway, he will get on expressway and continue to drive and at expressway speeds the temperature will go back down to just past "N" (1 gauge needle width past "N")

 

Bob

After my cylinder head replacement the 264 ran cooler.  However, at stoplights the needle will climb to the top of the normal area.  It will not go past the very top of the normal area and climb to the H. However,  it did go to the H with the old heads.  When I drive in 90 plus weather my needle will settle in the middle of normal.  Highway speed of 60 plus my needle will climb to the top of normal.  Drop back to 55 and the needle starts to drop.  Get off the very hot highway and run a country road at 50 and the needle is dead center of normal. Once I sat at the Bay Bridge in 95 degree summer heat.  It was so hot my cellphone flashed a message, Overheating. Shutting down.  Yet the 264 in sweltering heat surrounded by other hot vehicles at a stand still did not overheat.  The needle at the high end of normal. Did not boil over.  I just about died from the heat. Anyway,  get a heat gun at check the thermostat housing.  Check the point on the head where the heat probe resides.  I found that the high end of normal read 200 degrees at the probe entry on the head.  This 57 may simply be running at good temperature at whatever speed and the gauge is just indicating a 10 degree change. The engine is not in a boil over situation. 

[lancemb]

I hope he gets the problem solved!  If by chance a radiator is needed I have an extra that is already recored.

[NailheadBob]

@lancemb if radiator is needed I will contact you.

 

Thanks

 

Bob

[usnavystgc]

2 hours ago, lancemb said:

If by chance a radiator is needed I have an extra that is already recored.

Is the radiator for the 57 the same as a 56?

[MRJBUICK]

1957 Buicks run hot

that being said first you need to find out if he has the early temp gauge or the later bulletin gauge

the difference is the line that extends across the gauge under the N is longer on the replacement gauge

and extends almost to the H so you think you are in the normal more

My 57 Special temp always creeps up in traffic

now this does not replace getting accurate temps on what the car runs at and doing the above things to make sure you don't have a problem just some extra knowledge on 57's

i also did the fan blade and it helped

i will see if i can get some pics of the 2 gauges

its just another part of the 1957 puzzle

good luck

Marty

[avgwarhawk]

1 hour ago, MRJBUICK said:

1957 Buicks run hot

that being said first you need to find out if he has the early temp gauge or the later bulletin gauge

the difference is the line that extends across the gauge under the N is longer on the replacement gauge

and extends almost to the H so you think you are in the normal more

My 57 Special temp always creeps up in traffic

now this does not replace getting accurate temps on what the car runs at and doing the above things to make sure you don't have a problem just some extra knowledge on 57's

i also did the fan blade and it helped

i will see if i can get some pics of the 2 gauges

its just another part of the 1957 puzzle

good luck

Marty

Very interesting the gauge updated line length.  The manufacturers recognized car owners sweating gauges with numerical values.  They installed gauges with simple N normal area. H and C.  Then cars owners started sweating the area where the needle was in normal or N. Eventually removed the gauge and had idiot lights for over heating.  When driving my 60 Electra with no gauge I simply do not think about running hot. There is no gauge jumping around. The 54 with gauge I watch intentionally as the needle moves from C to N and hopefully no more.  

 

Like yours, the 54 temp gauge creeps up in stop and go. Stoplights. I run the standard radiator and 4 blade fan. 

Edited August 10, 2022 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[NailheadBob]

6 hours ago, usnavystgc said:

Is the radiator for the 57 the same as a 56?

1956 Radiator for Automatic Transmission is : #3134597 and 1957 Radiator for Automatic is # 3136705  BUT there is a "Footnote" for 1957 units, I will need to investigate more, IF Radiator is needed.

 

@MRJBUICK

1957 Buicks run hot

that being said first you need to find out if he has the early temp gauge or the later bulletin gauge

 

That is very interesting information and extra knowledge of 1957 Buick's, would be very informative to see photo of the difference on the gauges, did you replace your 4 blade fan, with 5 OR 6 blade fan, does your car have A/C?

 

@avgwarhawk  I found that the high end of normal read 200 degrees at the probe entry on the head.

He is going to test with digital temperature gun at the left rear cylinder head where the temperature gauge tube goes into cylinder head and see what temp is there, what was your reading at thermostat housing area, when your 200 degrees at probe entry on the head?

 

Bob

 

[MRJBUICK]

The first pic is the original short line gauge in my cars dash

The 2nd is the replacement with the longer line

[MRJBUICK]

3 hours ago, NailheadBob said:

1956 Radiator for Automatic Transmission is : #3134597 and 1957 Radiator for Automatic is # 3136705  BUT there is a "Footnote" for 1957 units, I will need to investigate more, IF Radiator is needed.

 

@MRJBUICK

1957 Buicks run hot

that being said first you need to find out if he has the early temp gauge or the later bulletin gauge

 

That is very interesting information and extra knowledge of 1957 Buick's, would be very informative to see photo of the difference on the gauges, did you replace your 4 blade fan, with 5 OR 6 blade fan, does your car have A/C?

 

@avgwarhawk  I found that the high end of normal read 200 degrees at the probe entry on the head.

He is going to test with digital temperature gun at the left rear cylinder head where the temperature gauge tube goes into cylinder head and see what temp is there, what was your reading at thermostat housing area, when your 200 degrees at probe entry on the head?

 

Bob

 

My car does not have a/c it's a base Special and I replaced it with a 6 blade. And to the observant this is the wrong water pump note the blocked off nipple  my heater hose goes to the bottom of the radiator. I belive this is a later pump. It is going to be corrected as soon as i get the chance.

Edited August 11, 2022 by MRJBUICK (see edit history)

[avgwarhawk]

@Nailheadbob 180 at the stat housing. I run a 180 degree stat.  

Edited August 11, 2022 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[NailheadBob]

@MRJBUICK very interesting to see the 2 different gauges, and you stated : My 57 Special temp always creeps up in traffic : where usually does your temp gauge register, and what does it register in traffic?

 

By the way you have 1 nice looking Buick Special !!

 

Bob

[60FlatTop]

When further diagnosing this problem I would be sure to check the entering and leaving temperature of the transmission cooling lines. There is a possibility of overheating the lower tank under certain conditions.

 

I have driven my '60 Electra in parades and noticed conditions where it tends to puke coolant right in front of the reviewing stand. A parade that moves along slow and steady where I am moving alone in Drive with my foot on the brake will give that symptom. If the parade has a lot of stops and starts I usually put the car in Neutral or Park during the delays and bring the engine RPM's up while sitting. It cools fine then.

 

My thought has been that the braking to hold back builds up transmission fluid heat that is transferred into the cooling system. I never put an infrared thermometer on the lines but in your instance it could be a telling test.

[MRJBUICK]

2 hours ago, NailheadBob said:

@MRJBUICK very interesting to see the 2 different gauges, and you stated : My 57 Special temp always creeps up in traffic : where usually does your temp gauge register, and what does it register in traffic?

 

By the way you have 1 nice looking Buick Special !!

 

Bob

Normal warm temp is just to the right of N

70 degree day stop and go traffic it will go easily to the end of the line on a hot day it is heading for the H

I don't think i have ever had it sit on the H but by then i am running the heater blower on high neutral whenever i can and stressing myself to no end

after looking at the pics i noticed that the gauge may be calibrated from 110 to 260 interesting

Marty

[avgwarhawk]

2 hours ago, MRJBUICK said:

 

after looking at the pics i noticed that the gauge may be calibrated from 110 to 260 interesting

Marty

 I concur. 110 is the degrees the gauge will start reading temp.    260 is the very most high end where coolant will boil.  As long as it is not boiling things should be good.  Once boiling, out goes the coolant reducing the level in the system.  Air is introduced and that will be all she wrote.   

 

BTW, I went to look at modern gauges with numerical values showing.  These gauges read up to 250 degrees.  Some up to 260 degrees.    

Edited August 11, 2022 by avgwarhawk (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

There is a dynamic related to the coolant pressure at work on the system. You have the suction side of the pump as the low side, basically the radiator and lower hose would be considered the low side. Higher pressure would be from the discharge of the pump, through the crankcase water jackets head(s), and outlet where the thermostat acts as the restriction between the pressures. The boiling point would be dependent on the pressure/temperature relationship of the coolant.

Add to this a radiator pressure cap to keep the low side boiling point high and you have a system that will operate well above 212 degrees. Even in areas adjacent to the cylinders.

 

A lot is designed into the original system and lack of maintenance or modifications can upset the whole interaction.

 

Nothing specific to this, just trying to raise the level of awareness of what is going on with the cooling system in operation.

[avgwarhawk]

Then there is coolant/water and radiator caps:

 

 

[NailheadBob]

On 8/10/2022 at 9:07 PM, MRJBUICK said:

The first pic is the original short line gauge in my cars dash

The 2nd is the replacement with the longer line

Marty, could you please measure bulb length, from the edge where the screw fitting rests on to the end of the bulb, on the replacement temperature gauge. I hope I described it properly.

 

Bob

[MRJBUICK]

26 minutes ago, NailheadBob said:

Marty, could you please measure bulb length, from the edge where the screw fitting rests on to the end of the bulb, on the replacement temperature gauge. I hope I described it properly.

 

Bob

i can but it might be a few days if thats ok

Marty

[old-tank]

On 8/11/2022 at 1:59 PM, avgwarhawk said:

Then there is coolant/water and radiator caps:

 

 

That is a very useful chart, but on nailheads subtract 15 degrees.  On nails the exhaust valve is near the center line of the engine and exhaust has to travel through the cylinder head to the exhaust manifold creating more heat to get rid of.  An overheated engine starts with just a small area that boils away creating steam which dislodges the radiator cap rendering it less effective leading to other marginal hot spots to do the same and you get runaway gushing.  Also on nails tuned properly there will be detonation at 210 degrees due to higher cylinder head temperatures.

(The Ford flathead runs exhaust through the block and has the same problem)

[NailheadBob]

On 8/10/2022 at 9:07 PM, MRJBUICK said:

The first pic is the original short line gauge in my cars dash

The 2nd is the replacement with the longer line

That is something to see, in the updated gauge #1513541, the horizontal white line in the normal range "N" is so much longer than the original gauge pictured in the dash, and the temperature listed as 110 degrees on the COLD side, and 260 degrees on the HOT side, the service special letter #208 is very informative, thank full @MRJBUICK mentioned the bulletin in a earlier reply, (can be viewed on "Hometown Buicks" website) with the 1957 Buick service bulletins book, we are also going to look to see what changed from 1955 and 1956 with no bulletins for overheating, then in 1957 early, April 22, 1957 bulletin for overheating? cylinder head part numbers are different for 1957, maybe the bulb/tube is larger/longer for the thermo gauge when installed into cylinder head? OR the chamber in the cylinder head is to close to the bulb/tube getting hotter than it should? In another post I found reply by @JohnD1956 a few years ago on another year Buick overheating he suggested to install a test gauge in the right front cylinder head by removing the screw in plug with a special Snap-On socket that has a flat tip blade (SW28E, SW32E, or SW40E) that could be used with a ratchet and extension for extra leverage to get plug out, then we can compare the test gauge in right front corner of cylinder head with the in dash gauge and temp gun.

 

ALSO:

 

On 8/11/2022 at 1:59 PM, avgwarhawk said:

Then there is coolant/water and radiator caps:

 

 

Gives good information with this chart, and the a deduction of 15 degrees from @old-tank .

 

Bob

Edited August 17, 2022 by NailheadBob
changed vertical to horizontal (see edit history)

[Y-JobFan]

On 8/10/2022 at 3:59 PM, MRJBUICK said:

1957 Buicks run hot

that being said first you need to find out if he has the early temp gauge or the later bulletin gauge

the difference is the line that extends across the gauge under the N is longer on the replacement gauge

and extends almost to the H so you think you are in the normal more

My 57 Special temp always creeps up in traffic

now this does not replace getting accurate temps on what the car runs at and doing the above things to make sure you don't have a problem just some extra knowledge on 57's

i also did the fan blade and it helped

i will see if i can get some pics of the 2 gauges

its just another part of the 1957 puzzle

good luck

Marty

Agree 100%, 57's were notorious for running hot even when new.  My 57's both ran hot in traffic but they would never go over the edge.  There were times I was sweating it though 

 

[NailheadBob]

12 hours ago, Y-JobFan said:

Agree 100%, 57's were notorious for running hot even when new.  My 57's both ran hot in traffic but they would never go over the edge.  There were times I was sweating it though 

 

Did you have the original short line gauge?

 

Bob

[oldstyle]

My 57 would get hot in traffic. I've replaced the radiator, added a shroud, 6 blade fan, and electric fan. The electric fan made a big difference. It hardly ever gets very hot now. 

[NailheadBob]

On 8/19/2022 at 7:42 PM, oldstyle said:

My 57 would get hot in traffic. I've replaced the radiator, added a shroud, 6 blade fan, and electric fan. The electric fan made a big difference. It hardly ever gets very hot now. 

@oldstyle was your 57 missing the shroud? Could you please post a photo of your engine compartment showing the addition of the electric fan.

 

Bob

[oldstyle]

Bob,

Yes, I didn't have a shroud when I got the car.  The electric fan is on the front of the radiator. It kicks on and off automatically by a sensor that is in the upper radiator hose. I put it in years ago so I don't remember where I got it. 

[NailheadBob]

Thank you to all for replies on ideas and suggestions to this concern, I will update while using the ideas and suggestions listed here to my findings.

 

 

Thanks again,

 

Bob