Aftermarket carburetor or EFI?

[CChinn]

There is another robust discussion on the forum about Edelbrock Carburetors that I do not want to hijack with a question that came to mind as I read through it. It is well established that keeping or rebuilding the original carburetor that came with the car is preferred over any other option such as replacing with an aftermarket carburetor. It was mentioned that some turn to aftermarket carburetors because they do not know how to use, repair or tune the original carburetor. The question that came to mind: what if they did not want to deal with carburetors at all and decided to replace with an EFI. Is that worse?  This is not a question of original carburetor vs EFI. It’s aftermarket carburetors vs EFI. Let the onslaught of varying opinions begin….

[1912Staver]

Depends on the EFI, the owners needs, the owners ability to tune and maintain the EFI. Some are very good , but need someone very knowledgable setting them up. A big step up in complexity compared to a regular carb.

[joe_padavano]

This was exactly my point in the other thread. If one can't figure out how to get a carb to run right, the odds of sorting out an EFI system are even lower. Yeah, if you have a 350 Chevy and buy a "self tuning" EFI designed for that specific application, it will probably run OK. It still won't be optimized, but again, the owner probably has never driven the car with a properly rebuilt and tuned OEM carb and has no idea how well it could run.

[rocketraider]

Aftermarket EFI still has to be set up, tuned and optimized for that particular engine. That requires skills most people don't have, so they end up paying $$$$ to get someone who does to make it work "reasonably well".

 

Think I'm right that most have to have an O2 sensor installed in the exhaust, and others require a coolant temperature input? Again, never as simple as the TV shows make it out to be. 

 

I count meself fortunate that I understood computer-controlled combustion parameters because the powerplant furnace combustion controls worked much the same way.

 

I also believe in keeping things simple, which ain't the case when you're modifying things to work electronically.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

IF YOU AIN'T TRIED IT DONT KNOCK IT!!!

 

    You are probably correct that some/most don't know how to "tune" a carburetor.  Me being one.  Why should I know?  Folks comment ' the engineers " knew what they were doing".  They did for what was available. BUT I THINK THEY WERE NOT SATISFIED!.  

  I, in 2012, decided to install an EFI on my straight eight Buick.  At EVERY meeting, show, cruise in, etc I have attended since, knowledgeable folks complain about "vapor lock". starvation, and other gas related problems.  Not me, with my old Buick!  NEVER!!.  Installed, following instructions, started it up and drive.  Never a hard starting problem. Drove from Texas , less than a thousand ft elev, to Denver with never a belch.   Using ethanol laced gas. 

   All told, 20,000 miles +.

  I COULD rebuild tune, tinker with the Carter or Stromberg, but why? 

 

  Ben

[joe_padavano]

1 hour ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

IF YOU AIN'T TRIED IT DONT KNOCK IT!!!

 

    You are probably correct that some/most don't know how to "tune" a carburetor.  Me being one.  Why should I know?  Folks comment ' the engineers " knew what they were doing".  They did for what was available. BUT I THINK THEY WERE NOT SATISFIED!.  

  I, in 2012, decided to install an EFI on my straight eight Buick.  At EVERY meeting, show, cruise in, etc I have attended since, knowledgeable folks complain about "vapor lock". starvation, and other gas related problems.  Not me, with my old Buick!  NEVER!!.  Installed, following instructions, started it up and drive.  Never a hard starting problem. Drove from Texas , less than a thousand ft elev, to Denver with never a belch.   Using ethanol laced gas. 

   All told, 20,000 miles +.

  I COULD rebuild tune, tinker with the Carter or Stromberg, but why? 

 

  Ben

Whatever works for your situation. Personally I've never had problems with vapor lock, starvation, or other gas-related problems with any of my carbureted vehicles. The factory EFI on my 1999 Chevy truck is what's kicking my butt, and I have the appropriate scan tool to read all the telemetry. I still can't find the problem - and every possible component that is remotely related to driveability (including lifters, every sensor, every single ignition component, the fuel lines, the injectors, the fuel pressure regulator, the throttle body, the evap solenoid, and the egr valve have been replaced. So have both upper and lower intake gaskets. Of course this is an intermittent problem, not a hard failure and of course it doesn't set a code. This is why I'm building a 1984 crewcab dually with a carb'd big block and a five speed to replace it. (Did I mention the problems with the computer-controlled trans also?)

Edited June 16, 2022 by joe_padavano (see edit history)

[avgwarhawk]

1 hour ago, joe_padavano said:

Whatever works for your situation. Personally I've never had problems with vapor lock, starvation, or other gas-related problems with any of my carbureted vehicles. The factory EFI on my 1999 Chevy truck is what's kicking my butt, and I have the appropriate scan tool to read all the telemetry. I still can't find the problem - and every possible component that is remotely related to driveability (including lifters, every sensor, every single ignition component, the fuel lines, the injectors, the fuel pressure regulator, the throttle body, the evap solenoid, and the egr valve have been replaced. So have both upper and lower intake gaskets. Of course this is an intermittent problem, not a hard failure and of course it doesn't set a code. This is why I'm building a 1984 crewcab dually with a carb'd big block and a five speed to replace it. (Did I mention the problems with the computer-controlled trans also?)

Sounds like the ECM is the problem.  

[avgwarhawk]

EFI from my understanding is not difficult to install and tune. Yes, an O2 and coolant sensors need to be installed. Once in and working it up to the task with today's fuels. Fortunate for I do not suffer any issues with my carbs.

 

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Mine is from a 1990 Chevrolet PU .  I like it because there are so few sensors. Just enough.  The same system GM used , with few changes, through 1995, I think. The same system on my 1992 daily driver Roadmaster.   85000 and no problems.  I guess it is the same old question,  coffee black or white.  Women, blond or brunet.  

 

  Ben

 

  

[Peter R.]

17 hours ago, CChinn said:

It’s aftermarket carburetors vs EFI. Let the onslaught of varying opinions begin….

If there would be an EFI carburetor long throw contest, a friend of mine would definitely be the sole winner…..

 

Imagine a smooth idling engine. You‘d like to pull away and gently open the throttle but nothing happens. So what do you do? Of course it is human to further open the throttle. Now imagine an idling 500 cui V8 engine on two wheels (Boss Hoss) on which EFI suddenly kicks in at wide open throttle….a thunderclap later your ride has already disappeared from the scene, while you're still performing that triple loop jump in the air….kinda magic….🤔

 

However, my friend strongly prefers mechanical aftermarket carburetors since….

Edited June 16, 2022 by Peter R. (see edit history)

[joe_padavano]

3 hours ago, Peter R. said:

EFI suddenly kicks in at wide open throttle

That's typically not a carb or EFI problem, it's a linkage problem. Unless that EFI was throttle-by-wire, the electronics alone can't drive it to wide open throttle.

[Matt Harwood]

Today's aftermarket EFI systems are pretty darned good. They aren't quite bolt-on-and-go but they're pretty close and they usually offer notably improved driveability and the ability to self-tune as you drive. There's some extra work to install them properly and they can be finicky if you aren't feeding them correct information (it's usually sensor placement more than anything else), but I'm always pleased when I see a rod come into our shop wearing an EFI system instead of an old-tech carburetor. If you're going to change the induction system, choosing EFI isn't a bad idea over a similar aftermarket carburetor. Sure, carbs can be tuned to work just as well and can deliver the same seamless performance, but it's old technology. I am inevitably disappointed when I see a rod come in with a 4-barrel carb, 3-speed automatic transmission, and no A/C. The guy who built it claims he just wanted a reliable car with none of that "high tech stuff" but the real reason is that he cheaped out. EFI has been around for 35 years now. Same with overdrive transmissions. No reason not to use them to improve your car as much as possible.

 

Does this apply to an otherwise stock car? I'm not sure--personally, I'd say, "No." If you can't tune the original carburetor and are looking for an upgrade just to make your stock car act more like a stock car, I think EFI is a mistake simply because it doesn't belong there. But that's an esoteric question. The Holley Sniper throttle body EFI system hides out of sight under air cleaners pretty well and unless you're really looking, you may not even notice it. I personally don't think it's a suitable replacement for a stock carburetor on an otherwise stock old car, but if you're modifying the car in other ways and moving away from stock, EFI is a good choice.

[CChinn]

Thanks everyone for your replies and providing your thoughts on my question. Keep it coming!

[carbking]

If I lived in Colorado and daily traversed from 3500 feet altitude to 12000 feet altitude, I might think about considering efi.................nah; Carters with a couple sets of rods in the glove box.

 

I find the comments about vapor lock, etc., etc., etc. interesting.

 

But like others have mentioned, by collector cars are all carbureted; and the 390/450 HP shop truck with 2x4 (Carters) will idle all day at 600 RPM and an ambient of 105 degrees F. It will accelerate with no hesitation foot on the floor from idle to WOT in all gears except 4th (need to be at 1000 RPM before flooring). It will burn 87 octane fuel (except when pulling the 16' trailer with two 400 series John Deere L&G then it requires 89). With real gasoline at 70, about 21~22 MPG (without the trailer), and 19~21 on ethanol laced fuel. Carbs are a marriage of two Lincoln carb internals (original Ford calibration) with two racing bodies. Both are manual choke.

 

Electric fuel pump, and it will start on the first revolution of the starter.

 

Untouched for 19 years.

 

What would efi do for me?

 

Bottom line (again), if one likes an aftermarket carb, or efi; then go for it. But please don't preach benefits over well-tuned carburetor(s).

 

As far as how difficult to install efi; I have no idea.

 

As far as comparisons (efi to eclones) told to me by customers for older vehicles and carburetors; so this is hearsay (thank you Perry Mason). The Holley Sniper seems to be the efi of choice. Expensive, has to be dialed in, but seems to work well once this is done. The eclones work fairly well out of the box for small block Chevy engines. Have had quite a few customers with other makes purchase a real carburetor for their vehicle from us; and install the eclone in the wife's garage sale.

 

And while the eclones have a terrific advertising department and seem to offer good parts support; what does one do when efi fails (Dad traded the van).

 

Jon

 

 

[joe_padavano]

1 hour ago, carbking said:

And while the eclones have a terrific advertising department and seem to offer good parts support

 

I don't know if you've noticed, but E-brock now sells a Holley 4150 clone also.

 

[carbking]

Joe - I was not aware of this, but it would change nothing for me.

 

Jon.

[76 Caddy]

I've got a question now...

My 1976 Fleetwood came with EFI but previous owner converted to a carburetor.  My 1976 Seville is still EFI, so if it fails and can't be repaired, what would you do, replace with a modern EFI, or switch to a carburetor? 

 

Tim

[Pfeil]

10 minutes ago, 76 Caddy said:

I've got a question now...

My 1976 Fleetwood came with EFI but previous owner converted to a carburetor.  My 1976 Seville is still EFI, so if it fails and can't be repaired, what would you do, replace with a modern EFI, or switch to a carburetor? 

 

Tim

Just remember that legally your 1976 Fleetwood is illegal, and to change your 76 Seville to a carburetor is also illegal according to the Fed. government and many states too. That also includes removing of any part of the emission control systems including a catalytic converter.

[joe_padavano]

1 minute ago, Pfeil said:

Just remember that legally your 1976 Fleetwood is illegal, and to change your 76 Seville to a carburetor is also illegal according to the Fed. government and many states too. That also includes removing of any part of the emission control systems including a catalytic converter.

Technically true, but if the car doesn't need to have the emissions system inspected, from a practical standpoint that is moot. The reality is that the prehistoric analog EFI system used on the original Sevilles is nearly impossible to get parts for, If something fails, the options are to scrounge NOS or used parts, scrap the car, or convert to something else. That's an Oldsmobile-sourced 350, so 4BBL intakes are easy, and more importantly were an emissions-certified option for the 1976 model year. People have also converted that Seville EFI system to run on modern digital electronics, so that's an option. The original EFI didn't even use an O2 sensor and thus was in open loop mode all the time.

[76 Caddy]

24 minutes ago, Pfeil said:

Just remember that legally your 1976 Fleetwood is illegal, and to change your 76 Seville to a carburetor is also illegal according to the Fed. government and many states too. That also includes removing of any part of the emission control systems including a catalytic converter.

If that is true, then wouldn't changing ANY vehicle from a carburetor to EFI be illegal?  South Carolina doesn't have emissions testing.

 

Tim    

[Pfeil]

10 minutes ago, 76 Caddy said:

If that is true, then wouldn't changing ANY vehicle from a carburetor to EFI be illegal?  South Carolina doesn't have emissions testing.

 

Tim    

Yes, this is a Federal EPA rule. Doesn't matter if your state has no test. Think what could happen if you sold that car to someone who's state is testing, and they trace it back to you. 

[joe_padavano]

5 minutes ago, Pfeil said:

Yes, this is a Federal EPA rule. Doesn't matter if your state has no test. Think what could happen if you sold that car to someone who's state is testing, and they trace it back to you. 

I'm pretty sure that in the history of the EPA, no private individual has ever been arrested or charged with emission equipment tampering under federal law. The law is used to go after commercial shops. If the car has unobtanium parts, is he supposed to scrap it?

Edited June 16, 2022 by joe_padavano (see edit history)

[carbking]

Discussing smog emissions is a slippery slope, and I will only do so in generalities.

 

California smog began in 1966.

 

Federal smog began in 1968.

 

Prior to about 20 years ago, California regulations were more stringent than Federal regulations.

 

About 20 years ago, California relaxed regulations from 1966 through 1974 TO THE FEDERAL LEVEL; THEY WERE NOT GONE, JUST FEDERAL INSTEAD OF DIFFERENT.

 

Typically, many states do not do a smog emission test prior to 1980.

 

Central Missouri doesn't test anything.

 

A general rule of thumb is that modifications are upward compatible, but not downward compatible. As an example, if one had a Chevrolet Camaro from 1971 with a 350 A/T, one could legally replace the 1971 power train with an IDENTICAL (350/AT) unit from 1972 or 1975 or 1980. But one cannot put the 1971 drivetrain in a newer vehicle.

 

There WERE ONCE (and I don't know today) restrictions on putting a different engine in a vehicle which did not come in the vehicle. I know of one Chevy that was confiscated because a complete 454 with all smog emissions was placed in a vehicle that came with a 400 as the largest engine.

 

The (C)alifornia (A)ir (R)esearch (B)oard, a.k.a. CARB, has tested some fuel system changes, and accepts these modifications. Generally, the Feds will accept the CARB recommendations.

 

It has been my policy when asked, to answer that I can only recommend the factory fuel system for any vehicle originally equipped with smog emission.

 

Like I stated earlier, it is a slippery slope.

 

Jon

[joe_padavano]

I should point out that even in California, it is legal to swap in a same model year or newer engine so long as all the associated emissions equipment goes with it (going cleaner is allowed). This means that the EFI Olds engine in a 1976 Seville could be legally swapped for a 1976-newer carburated Olds 350. Since the long block is the same between the EFI and carb versions, that means simply swapping the intake, distributor, and associated equipment onto the Seville.

Edited June 16, 2022 by joe_padavano (see edit history)

[76 Caddy]

I don't think Pfeil understood my question.  

If you put an EFI setup on an old car that came originally with a carburetor, then you are breaking the law??

 

Tim

[carbking]

 

 

Tim - if the vehicle was older than smog emission, then no.

 

If the vehicle was originally equipped with smog emissions, an aftermarket unit would probably be a no no; unless CARB had approved it.

 

Jon

Edited June 16, 2022 by carbking (see edit history)

[joe_padavano]

5 minutes ago, 76 Caddy said:

I don't think Pfeil understood my question.  

If you put an EFI setup on an old car that came originally with a carburetor, then you are breaking the law??

 

Tim

If you put any system that is not emissions certified for that year, model, and engine, then legally yes. The engine swap loophole requires you to use a same year or newer engine that was put through the emissions certification process. It's legal for you to swap in a 700 HP supercharged LT4 motor (assuming all the OEM emissions equipment goes with it), but it is not legal to install a non-certified aftermarket EFI system. GM actually sells e-Crate motors that are emissions certified for swaps.

Edited June 16, 2022 by joe_padavano (see edit history)

[76 Caddy]

Another question...

 

EFI was an option on the Fleetwood, standard equipment was a carb.  Mine is setup just like a carbureted one.  Is it still illegal?

 

Tim 

[Pfeil]

5 minutes ago, carbking said:

Discussing smog emissions is a slippery slope, and I will only do so in generalities.

 

California smog began in 1966.

 

Federal smog began in 1968.

 

Prior to about 20 years ago, California regulations were more stringent than Federal regulations.

 

About 20 years ago, California relaxed regulations from 1966 through 1974 TO THE FEDERAL LEVEL; THEY WERE NOT GONE, JUST FEDERAL INSTEAD OF DIFFERENT.

 

Typically, many states do not do a smog emission test prior to 1980.

 

Central Missouri doesn't test anything.

 

A general rule of thumb is that modifications are upward compatible, but not downward compatible. As an example, if one had a Chevrolet Camaro from 1971 with a 350 A/T, one could legally replace the 1971 power train with an IDENTICAL (350/AT) unit from 1972 or 1975 or 1980. But one cannot put the 1971 drivetrain in a newer vehicle.

 

There WERE ONCE (and I don't know today) restrictions on putting a different engine in a vehicle which did not come in the vehicle. I know of one Chevy that was confiscated because a complete 454 with all smog emissions was placed in a vehicle that came with a 400 as the largest engine.

 

The (C)alifornia (A)ir (R)esearch (B)oard, a.k.a. CARB, has tested some fuel system changes, and accepts these modifications. Generally, the Feds will accept the CARB recommendations.

 

It has been my policy when asked, to answer that I can only recommend the factory fuel system for any vehicle originally equipped with smog emission.

 

Like I stated earlier, it is a slippery slope.

 

Jon

California smog regulation started in 1961 and Federal started in 62-63. California emission testing started in 1966 with the introduction of exhaust emission control devises.

[joe_padavano]

7 minutes ago, 76 Caddy said:

Another question...

 

EFI was an option on the Fleetwood, standard equipment was a carb.  Mine is setup just like a carbureted one.  Is it still illegal?

 

Tim 

It is completely legal to use any system that was certified for that model year or newer. If the carb version was certified on that motor (I assume the 500) then it's completely legal to revert to that system so long as all associated emissions equipment used on the carb version is also installed.

[Pfeil]

11 minutes ago, 76 Caddy said:

I don't think Pfeil understood my question.  

If you put an EFI setup on an old car that came originally with a carburetor, then you are breaking the law??

 

Tim

According to the law everything must be like it came from the factory unless the state or fed issues a part compliant part. Like a CARB # replacement part.

 Quite a few years back while Ca. was still testing 1966-1975 cars ( which by the way can be brought back into smog check any time without referendum) A friend of mine had a very hard time to get his Pontiac GTO to pass the emission test, so he was going to fuel inject the car and add twin cats. State wouldn't let him do it. It must pass with original equipment!  

[Pfeil]

 I see a lot of post 1975 cars in Hemmings BAT etc.. without emission equipment including Cat converters. Probably right that EPA is not going to get involved, but they could indirectly. Someone buys a post 1975 car and decides to move to AZ or CA and suddenly finds he can't pass a smog test, or this happens two sale purchases from when it originally happened. Then the owner sues and it ends up in court. If you take that stuff off and the plaintiff brings in expert witnesses you are toast. You'll probably have to pay a fine and buy the car back (if it's not confiscated) and that would be the easy way because tampering with intent usually means jail time. There are quite a few smog techs sitting in prison at this very minute.  

Edited June 16, 2022 by Pfeil (see edit history)

[joe_padavano]

9 minutes ago, Pfeil said:

According to the law everything must be like it came from the factory unless the state or fed issues a part compliant part. Like a CARB # replacement part.

 Quite a few years back while Ca. was still testing 1966-1975 cars ( which by the way can be brought back into smog check any time without referendum) A friend of mine had a very hard time to get his Pontiac GTO to pass the emission test, so he was going to fuel inject the car and add twin cats. State wouldn't let him do it. It must pass with original equipment!  

If the carb was an available factory option that year, it is completely legal to install that equipment.

 

Of course, we are being a bit anal in discussing the letter of the law vs what is required from a practical sense. Do the inspectors at state-run emissions test centers check casting numbers, carb model, and open the carb up to check jetting? Of course not. They look to see if the equipment the computer tells them is required (primarily catalyst, EGR, evap system, and A.I.R. pump if equipped) are in place and appear to be functional. For the states that still perform dyno tailpipe tests on pre-OBD II cars, they only spot check HC, CO, and NOx at two RPM levels. They lack the training, equipment, and time to run a comprehensive inspection and test of the emissions controls on the car. No one from the federal government is ever going to conduct a raid on your garage to inspect and impound your car for emissions equipment violations. The only inspection will be conducted by the state in states that require it.

 

The California state referee stations that inspect and approve engine swaps DO have the knowledge to check casting numbers, etc. Again, this is outside the scope of this thread, but those stations can and do approve swaps if done per the letter of the law. The people who staff those stations do have the skill and expertise to know what is legal and what is not. This is a rarity in the world of state-run emissions inspections.

[carbking]

1 hour ago, Pfeil said:

California smog regulation started in 1961 and Federal started in 62-63. California emission testing started in 1966 with the introduction of exhaust emission control devises.

Not an argument, simply asking for clarification.

 

When I posted 1966 for California, I forgot about PCV, which from my resources became a California requirement in 1963.

 

I can find no other documentation that California did anything about motor vehicles before 1966; or the Federal requirements on motor vehicles before 1968.

 

If I am incorrect, please list sources; as I have to abide by these laws in my business.

 

Since I have nothing to do with smoke stacks, etc.; I really am not interested if these were prior to 1966/1968.

 

Thanks.

 

Jon.

[Pfeil]

In order to not have to go through mountains of Ca smog check handbooks. One of my old college required diagnosis and tune up books has it posted. The book is called Automotive Diagnoses and tune up by Guy. F. Wetzel, Chapter 32 page 444. All new cars from 1961 from the factory has to have PVC. What I didn't remember was all old cars in Ca. were required by 1964 to have PVC. Funny I never did this on my 1959 Catalina, nor my 1965 European Type 111 VW Beetle, in fact I still have that beetle and it still has the road draft system operating.   

[Pfeil]

4 hours ago, carbking said:

Not an argument, simply asking for clarification.

 

When I posted 1966 for California, I forgot about PCV, which from my resources became a California requirement in 1963.

 

I can find no other documentation that California did anything about motor vehicles before 1966; or the Federal requirements on motor vehicles before 1968.

 

If I am incorrect, please list sources; as I have to abide by these laws in my business.

 

Since I have nothing to do with smoke stacks, etc.; I really am not interested if these were prior to 1966/1968.

 

Thanks.

 

Jon.

Jon, I can't find information about the 49 state 1962 cars. My 1962 Pontiac service manual does show the two systems (road draft and PCV) so that tells me some cars in 62 still used road draft systems. My 1963 Pontiac is a 49 state car and it has PCV and the manual only shows PCV. Mind you these early PCV systems are the open type, meaning clean air is not drawn into the engine from a special filter inside the air cleaner, but rather drawn in through a wire mesh breather located ( also used as a oil fill tube) in the timing cover or in Pontiac's case by a breather cap filled with wire mesh and one in each valve cover.

Here you can see the big valve cover breathers on a 1959- 389" engine, they are staggered to optimize exposure to air flow from the engine fan.

rt side is in the middle of the rt valve cover and the left side is at the front.

 

[sowesellit]

as chuck Nevin would say  carburetor is a french word and it translates in to don't f*#k with it . as far as efi i love it hot cold you get in and it starts 99.9 % of the time . a model A ford came with a carburetor and that's as it should be if that's what you want as its your car [if i had one i would want carburetor ] but what turned me off to the  carburetor on the so called hot rod / after market builder . was years of going to the big three in san diego and on a sat. after noon when it was time to leave you had hundreds if not thousands of every type of  vehicle starting up [it was like something out of dr. susses only with out the green eggs ] and the smell of raw gas. not the fault of the  carburetor but the ones that tried to overhaul / rebuild it , installed it , tune it. what ever they did in some cases is was just wrong. even today when i am out on the road and my sinuses start burning [the same thing happens with carbon monoxide] i ask myself ok wheres the shit box up there with the screwed up carburetor or the Mexican gas . so  carburetor are they ok yes if someone has not tried to make them better.  

[Pfeil]

Darn carburetors,

 

I'm taking that carburetor back with me for evidenceWait, there is no carburetor!   Trouble? having trouble? You should have used a carburetor!😉

 

Carburetors and cars with carburetor systems do catch fire, but most of the time you have time to smell it first and sometimes do something about it and if not get away from it, quite unlike a EFI system with a system under pressure of 40+PSI that develops a leak even ever so small and sprays all over the engine bay.

Edited June 18, 2022 by Pfeil (see edit history)

[joe_padavano]

Right, because cars with carburetors NEVER catch on fire... 🙄

This makes about as much sense as condemning EVs with cherry-picked photos of cars on fire.

And FYI, using a photo of a car with a flame thrower exhaust to substantiate the post really hurts any credibility there was.