Justinlb Posted December 11, 2021 Share Posted December 11, 2021 1940 Buick super I plan on taking out my gearbox to rebuild and put a new clutch in this winter. I have an enclosed driveshaft; is there a way to weasel the gearbox out without dropping the rear axle? Just curious, going off of the manual. Thanks 👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Nelson Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 There is no easy way. As I remember, you will have to move the axel rearward about 3" min. That will let you disconnect the torque tube and axel from the back of the tranny. then disconnect the shift linkage and follow the rest using the service manual. If you need more / better instructions, I found earlier service manuals sometimes fill in the sections that may be unclear. I personally have 6 I think. 35, 37, 38, 47 and 53. So I have myself covered on any method presented. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Nelson Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 And the fun begins ! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1939_Buick Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 Download the 1942 Buick shop manual for free. All of it section by section. Or click the pdf link to pay. http://www.oldcarmanualproject.com/manuals/Buick/1942/Shop Manual/ It is very comprehensive and has information that can be used with all straight 8’s. It has more information than was included in older “Shop Manuals” before 1942 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil morse Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 As has been said, the short answer to your question is unfortunately "No." You will have to remove all the hardware securing the rear axle, and pull the axle back about 4" or so to get the shaft out of the torque ball. When I did it on my '41, we jacked the body up so that the rear wheels were still on the floor, and then pulled the rear axle back with a come-along. Be careful when removing the bolts on the plates that hold the coil springs to the axle housing. They are reverse threaded on both sides. There is some discussion and photos that may be helpful to you on my "Me and My Buick" thread. Click on the arrow in the upper right-hand corner to go directly the post where it starts. Good luck and feel free to post more questions! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted December 18, 2021 Share Posted December 18, 2021 It's not an enclosed drive shaft. It's a torque tube. Let me explain torque and why Buick used a torque tube instead of the normal Hotchkiss drive. Hint: it's because "When better cars are built, Buick will build them." When you ride a bicycle, you step on the pedal and pop a wheelie. Why? Because of Newton's law that an action requires an equal and opposite reaction. You step on the pedal and the rear wheel gets power, which is torque, the rest of the bicycle has the opposite torque and goes the opposite way, so the front wheel comes off the ground and you pop a wheelie. Same thing with cars. When you hit the gas, the rear wheels have torque, and the whole car wants to rise up just like the bicycle. They solved the problem long ago by attaching the rear axle to the leaf springs via the spring perches, which is the Hotchkiss drive, but rear leaf springs are not the most comfortable ride. Leaf springs are good for trucks and inferior cars, but not good enough for a Buick. So way back in 1906 with the model D, Buick invented the torque tube to transfer torque to the car and still allow a nice cantilever suspension. For your 1940, Buick was using coil spring suspension on all 4 wheels, which would have been totally impossible without a torque tube. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted December 18, 2021 Share Posted December 18, 2021 To answer your question, the axle needs to be pulled rearward. This will require removing of the various parts that are attached to the torque tube. Not a difficult job. I have done it four times with my two Buicks. No help from others. Pro tip: keep the torque tube nose level with the tail of the transmission. Use a wheeled floor jack under the axle to keep it level. Doing so it will not bind at the junction. Pulling the torque tube rearward should only require a tug or two. The entire assembly will ride the wheeled floor jack as you pull it rearward. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
61polara Posted December 18, 2021 Share Posted December 18, 2021 I've done it on a '47 Roadmaster lifted on four strong jack stands. You will need to disconnect the shocks parking brake cable and the panhard bar. You can leave the coil springs attached as well as the rear brake hose. Attach a come-a-long around the rear axle and to something stationary. (I used the trailer hitch on another vehicle. You can pull the transmission back about 3-4 inches this way and that's all you need. You will need to make a rear support for the engine. This is outlined in the shop manual. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justinlb Posted February 3, 2022 Author Share Posted February 3, 2022 removed the clutch and pressure plate today... No meat on the clutchwould you look at that, a broken rivet! I knew I heard something spinning. Makes me wonder how in the world this car was still VERY driveable before I took it apartpressure plate looks good besides this wear, I have a new one though. I'll post my transmission wear/teardown tomorrow. Ill have a few questions also. Thanks for reading 😁 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justinlb Posted February 3, 2022 Author Share Posted February 3, 2022 The new Throwout bearing doesn't have the clip. Is this fine, or should I buy a different one? Is this where youd compare old to new and mark the new pressure plate accordingly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted February 3, 2022 Share Posted February 3, 2022 Looks like the 10 inch clutch for Jeep works in your Buick. It works in my 54 Special. The clutch fork should fit in the groove of your new throw out bearing. Check of course. I simply installed the new pressure plate and clutch assembly. I did not do any comparison looking for marks. No issues. Did you get the seal kit for the throw out bearing support? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justinlb Posted February 3, 2022 Author Share Posted February 3, 2022 18 minutes ago, avgwarhawk said: Looks like the 10 inch clutch for Jeep works in your Buick. It works in my 54 Special. The clutch fork should fit in the groove of your new throw out bearing. Check of course. I simply installed the new pressure plate and clutch assembly. I did not do any comparison looking for marks. No issues. Did you get the seal kit for the throw out bearing support? I had no idea there was a seal for the support, where could I find it? I'm not seeing it on any of my go-to websites. I plan on reusing the support tube, its flawless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted February 3, 2022 Share Posted February 3, 2022 Check with https://bobsautomobilia.com Did you see what looked to be a round cork seal, round paper seal and compression ring when you pulled the out the bearing support from the bellhousing? My 54 had required this. As your is a 1940 it may be a bit different. I think Bobs Automobilia can advise you here. Now, mine is 54 and it required a seal kit for the input shaft that the clutch throw out bearing support covered. Without it, gear oil finds its way up the input shaft and ruins the clutch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted February 3, 2022 Share Posted February 3, 2022 I got my seal kit from here. https://nwtparts.com Again, not sure if yours needs this kit. Northwest Transmissions can help if you do. 937-442-2811. It looks like this: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil morse Posted February 3, 2022 Share Posted February 3, 2022 On my '41, there is no seal for the support tube. The tube is held in place by a spring washer. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted February 3, 2022 Share Posted February 3, 2022 @neil morse Surprised there was no leaking. I can tell you on my 54 without the cork seal on the input shaft it makes a mess. The 54 has the spring washer as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justinlb Posted February 3, 2022 Author Share Posted February 3, 2022 59 minutes ago, neil morse said: On my '41, there is no seal for the support tube. The tube is held in place by a spring washer. That's what I was thinking, thank Neil. I had taken mine out and it was bent and a portion was snapped off. I assume from the clutch taking a hike. Did you put on a new pressure plate when you had everything apart? The last thing I want to do is put the new one on wrong, the manual says to mark it and put it back on the same to not cause engine imbalance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil morse Posted February 3, 2022 Share Posted February 3, 2022 1 hour ago, avgwarhawk said: @neil morse Surprised there was no leaking. I can tell you on my 54 without the cork seal on the input shaft it makes a mess. The 54 has the spring washer as well. Hi Chris: Okay, having given it some more thought, I think you raise a very good point. The clutch stays dry on my car, but there's no question that some transmission oil is getting into that area because I see it accumulating in the clutch pan and draining out the hole in the bottom. There was no seal around the support tube on my car when I took it apart, and I was not aware that one was required. Like Justin, I did not see it on Bob's site so I was unaware of it. You very well could be correct that I should have installed one. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil morse Posted February 3, 2022 Share Posted February 3, 2022 54 minutes ago, Justinlb said: That's what I was thinking, thank Neil. I had taken mine out and it was bent and a portion was snapped off. I assume from the clutch taking a hike. Did you put on a new pressure plate when you had everything apart? The last thing I want to do is put the new one on wrong, the manual says to mark it and put it back on the same to not cause engine imbalance. As you may recall if you looked at the posts from my thread about the transmission job, the spring washer on my car was in three pieces (!), which was the reason that my car had a tendency to pop out of third gear. I did not have to replace either the clutch plate or the pressure plate on my car. They were both in very good shape. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted February 4, 2022 Share Posted February 4, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, neil morse said: Hi Chris: Okay, having given it some more thought, I think you raise a very good point. The clutch stays dry on my car, but there's no question that some transmission oil is getting into that area because I see it accumulating in the clutch pan and draining out the hole in the bottom. There was no seal around the support tube on my car when I took it apart, and I was not aware that one was required. Like Justin, I did not see it on Bob's site so I was unaware of it. You very well could be correct that I should have installed one. I was unaware the first time I pulled the transmission. I learned the hard way. It did not have any seal. The clutch was drenched in oil. Found it needed this kit. Mine needs a cork seal around the input shaft. Without this oil gets to the clutch. My post a few back with NW Transmission has the cork seal, snap ring and paper seal that goes on the base of the throw out bearing support. Edited February 4, 2022 by avgwarhawk (see edit history) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justinlb Posted February 4, 2022 Author Share Posted February 4, 2022 2 hours ago, avgwarhawk said: I was unaware the first time I pulled the transmission. I learned the hard way. It did not have any seal. The clutch was drenched in oil. Found it needed this kit. Mine needs a cork seal around the input shaft. Without this oil gets to the clutch. My post a few back with NW Transmission has the cork seal, snap ring and paper seal that goes on the base of the throw out bearing support. Thanks for the picture. That definitely makes sense now. There's nothing stopping that trans fluid from ruining the clutch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted February 4, 2022 Share Posted February 4, 2022 8 hours ago, Justinlb said: Thanks for the picture. That definitely makes sense now. There's nothing stopping that trans fluid from ruining the clutch. Yes but your clutch assembly you pictured is oil free. That's great! It's just worn out. So, try to locate an exploded view of the parts for the transmission installed in your year Buick. This is how I discovered many missing parts like this small seal. It will picture the bearing, oil slinger, snap ring and seal. A clutch job on a Buick of this era is quite involved. Having to pull the transmission a second time for a leak is exhausting. I know this first hand. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted February 4, 2022 Share Posted February 4, 2022 Where it points to the groove in the shaft notes a seal is needed. This is an exploded view the actual seal is shown at the extreme right. I'm amazed your clutch plate is dry. More power to you! Mine looked like the Exxon Valdez. Anyway, I have a second 3 speed I keep on the shelf in case I need it. There is no groove in the shaft. Don't know why. This transmission has been in my 54. Never leaked a drop. Go figure. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil morse Posted February 4, 2022 Share Posted February 4, 2022 I definitely had the cork seal you are showing that fits into a groove in the input shaft. I assume this is the smaller of the two seals shown in the plastic bag in the picture of the "kit" Chris showed above. I was thinking you were talking about an additional seal for the support tube itself. Is that the larger seal shown in the "kit?" Yes, pulling it all apart a second time to fix a leak would be brutal. As I said, my clutch is dry, but there's a small amount of transmission oil getting into the clutch pan. Probably not completely correct, but definitely not worth tearing it apart again in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted February 4, 2022 Share Posted February 4, 2022 (edited) The smaller cork seal in the kit fits the groove in the input shaft. The larger round paper seal goes between the base of the throw out bearing support and the bell housing. There is also a new snap ring in the kit. I think the kit had a new oil slinger. If yours is good leave it. I concur, a drip or two.. you're good. Mine originally was pouring oil. I thought the rear main seal went bad. Edited February 4, 2022 by avgwarhawk (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justinlb Posted February 5, 2022 Author Share Posted February 5, 2022 (edited) I have 2 cluster gears, they both have a little wear which one should I use? #1 has 2 chipped teeth here, no other issues. #2 has pitting on all middle teeth and a lip has been worn where the gear was running Also how do I seal the freeze plugs back in the transmission? The 41' and 40' manuals don't help much, they could be much more in depth Edited February 5, 2022 by Justinlb (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1939_Buick Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Justinlb said: Also how do I seal the freeze plugs back in the transmission? The 41' and 40' manuals don't help much, they could be much more in depth Try the 1942 manual. Section 8 Download the 1942 Buick shop manual for free. All of it section by section. Or click the pdf link to pay. http://www.oldcarmanualproject.com/manuals/Buick/1942/Shop Manual/ It is very comprehensive and has information that can be used with all straight 8’s. It has more information than was included in older “Shop Manuals” before 1942 Edited February 5, 2022 by 1939_Buick (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 1 hour ago, Justinlb said: I have 2 cluster gears, they both have a little wear which one should I use? #1 has 2 chipped teeth here, no other issues. #2 has pitting on all middle teeth and a lip has been worn where the gear was running Also how do I seal the freeze plugs back in the transmission? The 41' and 40' manuals don't help much, they could be much more in depth The second gear pictured will whine like crazy. It's no good. I found a dealer that had a new cluster gear. He may have another. If you want me to locate his info let me know. Also, there is a small parts kit with new needle bearings, thrust washers and plugs. Worth the money. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 (edited) This is the new gear I was able to purchase. I think I got the gear from Dave Waugh standard transmissions. 562 693 0855 I see ebay has gears for sale. https://youtube.com/shorts/nf1N4KIGU-4?feature=share Edited February 5, 2022 by avgwarhawk (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justinlb Posted February 5, 2022 Author Share Posted February 5, 2022 (edited) 18 minutes ago, avgwarhawk said: The second gear pictured will whine like crazy. It's no good. I found a dealer that had a new cluster gear. He may have another. If you want me to locate his info let me know. Also, there is a small parts kit with new needle bearings, thrust washers and plugs. Worth the money. I don't want to fork out the money for a new cluster gear unless it's absolutely necessary, but I do have a small parts kit on order right now. Sounds like I'll be using the first gear 🤣 Edited February 5, 2022 by Justinlb (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil morse Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 1 hour ago, Justinlb said: Also how do I seal the freeze plugs back in the transmission? There are no "freeze plugs" in the transmission, as far as I know. But I think you might be asking about the hole in the transmission case where one of the selector shafts goes through. This is plugged with something that's kind of the opposite of a "freeze plug" because it's inserted the opposite way -- there's a name for this, but I can't think of it right now. Anyhow, all I can offer is this post from my thread (again, click on the arrow in the upper right hand corner to get to the right post). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil morse Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 It's called a "welch" plug. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 7 minutes ago, Justinlb said: I don't want to fork out the money for a new cluster gear unless it's absolutely necessary, but I do have a small parts kit on order right now. Sounds like I'll be using the first gear 🤣 Good idea on the gear with chipped teeth. The other gear is useless. Once the surface where the gears meet are pitted it's no good. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil morse Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 From Wikipedia: Welch plug[edit] The Welch plug is a type of core plug that is made from a thin disc of metal. The Welch plug is dome-shaped and inserted into the casting hole with the convex side facing outwards.[5] When installed by striking the Welch plug with a hammer, the dome collapses slightly, expanding it laterally to seal the hole. This differs from other dish-shaped core plug designs, which form a seal when their tapered sides are pressed into the casting hole.[6] The Welch plug was originally designed in the 1900s at the Welch Motor Car Company in the United States. Prior to the invention of the Welch plug, the core holes were sealed using pipe plugs. During the testing of a car, one of the pipe plugs backed out. In order to get back on the road, one of the Welch brothers installed a press-fit quarter or half dollar coin into the hole using a hammer. The design of the Welch plug was refined based on this principle of a press-fit metallic disc.[7] 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 To answer the question about the Welsh plug, I tapped back into place with just a bit of RTV gasket maker. Once seated I gave it one had tap and that's it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 11 hours ago, Justinlb said: Sounds like I'll be using the first gear I agree, but suggest that you try to 'dress' the chipped area to remove the sharp edges. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldtech Posted February 6, 2022 Share Posted February 6, 2022 On 2/4/2022 at 9:02 PM, Justinlb said: I have 2 cluster gears, they both have a little wear which one should I use? #1 has 2 chipped teeth here, no other issues. #2 has pitting on all middle teeth and a lip has been worn where the gear was running Also how do I seal the freeze plugs back in the transmission? The 41' and 40' manuals don't help much, they could be much more in depth I would definitely use the first one. Those chips are pretty minor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted February 6, 2022 Share Posted February 6, 2022 10 hours ago, Oldtech said: I would definitely use the first one. Those chips are pretty minor. These 5 bolt transmissions although good are fragile. I keep an extra on the shelf. 6 bolt transmissions are bullet proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2carb40 Posted February 7, 2022 Share Posted February 7, 2022 On 2/3/2022 at 2:14 PM, Justinlb said: I had no idea there was a seal for the support, where could I find it? I'm not seeing it on any of my go-to websites. I plan on reusing the support tube, its flawless Check for a groove/(dado in woodworking jargon) around the front shaft, right in front of large support front bearing. That's where I've found cork seal. Ditch that 'waffle/wave clutch! Almost always cracked and replacements no longer sold(good reasons)! 1995 Jeep Grand Cherokee 6 stick clutch pack, like fast food, available at most auto parts stores. Use clutch disc and pressure plate exact replacement and give Jeep friends extra loose parts. Approx 100-125.00. no core needed. Good luck! 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justinlb Posted March 7, 2022 Author Share Posted March 7, 2022 Getting it back together with the help of Neil's videos/pictures. Notice anything unusual before I proceed to the torque ball seal? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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