Safety modifications and judging comments and questions.

[capngrog]

On 2/6/2021 at 3:29 PM, Marty Roth said:

 

So we go for economy,

and drive a Ford Pinto !

 

In my brief list of unfortunate engineering/design concepts, I purposely avoided involving such unfairly maligned cars as the Ford Pinto, the Corvair and the Triumph Spitfire.  The Pinto fuel tank crash resistance was blown out of proportion by sensationalistic press reports wanting to hop on the anti-Corvair bandwagon that brought an obscure lawyer to undeserved fame.  Oh by the way, the Triumph Spitfire shared the same problem with the early models of the Corvair in that it would handle very well up to the point that an inept driver would lose control.  The VW Bug, which also had swing axles, didn't have similar performance capabilities and was consequently rarely driven to the edge of its performance envelope.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Cheers,

Grog

[MikeC5]

As for internal modifications, will they start doing after-show tear downs to see if there are any illegal aluminum pistons or hidden alternator guts?  I have no dog in this argument either but it would seem the simplest thing to do would be the parallel classes.  I was not aware that electric starters had been given an exception.  If true, I would think burning you and/or your car would be up there with breaking your arm...  

Edited February 9, 2021 by MikeC5 (see edit history)

[MCHinson]

On 2/1/2021 at 12:43 AM, edinmass said:

Had an interesting debate on another site about adding a dual master cylinder to replace a single master on cars equipped with only the single......and weather or not it would or should receive a deduction under judging standard according to the club rules. Currently, it is a deduction according to AACA rules and accredited judging experts. My comment was that it made absolutely no sense to deduct for a safety upgrade, especially a very minor change on the cars braking system. My response was rather aggressive that it was a deduction, and there was no logic for it not to be allowed. As the conversation continued, we covered what would cause a disqualification for judging. It appears so far (going to read my rule book again tomorrow) that the only disqualification is no fire extinguisher. As most people here know, I’m a dinosaur when it comes to modifications and improper or out of the era parts, accessories , and non authentic modern replacement parts like electronic ignition in pre war cars. Ok, that being said, I’m going to offer two real life examples of safety issues and modifications that I have seen on tour and done to my own cars. Remember.....I accept no deviations from factory condition on any car, for any reason, except safety. Here we go.

 

At Amelia this year, a very nice early Packard suffered a severe and significant fire........it was ugly. Fortunately everyone got away safely, and the car was damaged but certainly not ruined. Both of these results were more luck than anything else......it could have turned into a disaster for both people and car.

 

 

The Packard uses a pressurized gas tank to deliver fuel to the carburetor. While going down the road, the float partially sunk.....causing gas to overflow the carburetor......and something ignited it. It took a LONG time to get the fire under control. Six large fire extinguishers were used to finally get it out. The problem? The car was shut off.....but the pressure in the tank kept pushing fuel making it almost impossible for the extinguishers to get ahead of the fire. The only way to stop the pressure would to be open the gas cap......which almost any owner or restorer would be hard pressed to keep his wits about him, put down the extinguisher and bleed off the pressure before attempting to put the fire out. See the photos below.........it’s ugly.

 

 

From the Judging Guidelines, "Turn signals and battery shut-off switches are accepted as safety items, so long as the installation is done in a workmanlike manner in keeping with the design and era of the vehicle, using authentic wiring, and in good taste." I suspect that if you make the case to the VP of Judging, you are likely to see similar additions to the Judging Guidelines to allow a few specific additional safety items also allowed. 

 

The safety glass is already covered in the Judging Guidelines, "Safety glass will be accepted. Replacement glass without the manufacturer's logo (e.g., PPG, LOF, etc.) will be accepted."

 

Fire extinguishers are covered as follows, "FAILURE TO HAVE AN APPROVED FIRE EXTINGUISHER RESULTS IN DISQUALIFICATION. The fire extinguisher must be UL-approved or equivalent and fully charged. Fire extinguishers without a gauge: ensure the nozzle is not obstructed and the safety seal is intact. The extinguisher need not be permanently mounted, but must be clearly visible and readily available."

 

Use of Wheel weights are allowed, "Wheel weights will be considered a safety item; therefore there will be no deduction for wheel weights if installed in a workmanlike manner. They may be painted."

 

In the Driver Participation Class, more modifications are already allowed, "The following are exceptions that will not disqualify the 4-6 vehicle: seat belts, seat coverings, turn signals, stop lights, sealed beam/ halogen headlights, radial tires, alloy wheels of the same era and/or same vehicle manufacturer, radio upgrades, electrical upgrades, brake upgrades (bolt on), steering upgrades (bolt on), air conditioning, overdrive system, and altered exhausts systems."

[edinmass]

Driver participation class.........ALL cars are drivers. That’s why they have wheels. 

[Pfeil]

4 hours ago, Terry Bond said:

Yes-it's called Drivers Participation (DPC).

Terry

I was going to suggest that however DPC cars are more street driven cars as opposed to show cars that want to tour occasionally. So, run parallel classes.  

Edited February 9, 2021 by Pfeil (see edit history)

[MCHinson]

Ed,

 

Probably the most important point from my previous post was this... " I suspect that if you make the case to the VP of Judging, you are likely to see similar additions to the Judging Guidelines to allow a few specific additional safety items also allowed. "

[John348]

47 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Driver participation class.........ALL cars are drivers. That’s why they have wheels. 

 

Yes, but not all cars are restored to participate on the show field, and very few cars participate in both aspects like you do.

[padgett]

I usually wind up on the rong side of this discussion but if I leave my home in any direction within a mile am on a multilane with a 45 mph limit and very aggressive drivers. Inside of 5 miles am on a 70mph road. Considering that one of my cars came with tires that "weren't even safe in the driveway" my current preference is for BFG (B. F. Goodrich) Comp-2 A/S tires on at least a 7" wide rim. Also since I may drive at night, all have halogens or HID (high intensity discharge). Might mention that in 1970 (51 years ago) my Buick GS (Gran Sport) had 15x7 wheels with dogbone Dunlops and I used BFG T/As as rain tires for the Corvette. Period correct. Also I had Cibie halogen driving lights on my cars in 1966 (55 years ago)

 

So just as a thought and since the AACA is for enjoyment maybe three classifications ? Factory correct in every detail (includiing defects) for trailering and driving on the show field only. A second group with minimal safety and drivability changes for low speed use (to 35 mph) on public roads. (e.g.cruises and tours). And a third group allowing bolt on changes (juice dual master cylinder & disk brakes are bolt-ons) appropriate for modern highway travel.

 

Perhaps the second and third group should display the original parts in baggies.

 

Thoughts ?

[Pfeil]

15 hours ago, padgett said:

I usually wind up on the rong side of this discussion but if I leave my home in any direction within a mile am on a multilane with a 45 mph limit and very aggressive drivers. Inside of 5 miles am on a 70mph road. Considering that one of my cars came with tires that "weren't even safe in the driveway" my current preference is for BFG (B. F. Goodrich) Comp-2 A/S tires on at least a 7" wide rim. Also since I may drive at night, all have halogens or HID (high intensity discharge). Might mention that in 1970 (51 years ago) my Buick GS (Gran Sport) had 15x7 wheels with dogbone Dunlops and I used BFG T/As as rain tires for the Corvette. Period correct. Also I had Cibie halogen driving lights on my cars in 1966 (55 years ago)

 

So just as a thought and since the AACA is for enjoyment maybe three classifications ? Factory correct in every detail (includiing defects) for trailering and driving on the show field only. A second group with minimal safety and drivability changes for low speed use (to 35 mph) on public roads. (e.g.cruises and tours). And a third group allowing bolt on changes (juice dual master cylinder & disk brakes are bolt-ons) appropriate for modern highway travel.

 

Perhaps the second and third group should display the original parts in baggies.

 

Thoughts ?

Thoughts;

 

Run a parallel classes as mentioned before, the third as you mentioned is already the Driver Participation class.

[hwellens]

Here is what the judging manual says and it is being interpreted in many ways:

III. GENERAL POLICY
The objective of AACA judging is to evaluate an
antique vehicle, which has been restored to the
same state as the dealer could have prepared
the vehicle for delivery to the customer. This
includes any feature, option or accessory shown
in the original factory catalog, parts book, sales
literature, or company directives for the model
year of the vehicle. AACA accepts motorized
vehicles 25 years old or older, which were built
in factories and specifically designed and
manufactured for transportation use on public
roadways and highways. The end result of the
accurate and honest evaluation of a vehicle by a
judging team will be the proper determination of
the deserved award for the owner's efforts.

 

[padgett]

That is for judging. The purpose of the club is enjoyment which IMNSHO (c) includes ability to drive at speed safely.

 

IMNSHO - in my not so humble opinion, was first to use on Prodigy and USENet near 40 years ago.

[Pfeil]

14 minutes ago, padgett said:

That is for judging. The purpose of the club is enjoyment which IMNSHO (c) includes ability to drive at speed safely.

 

IMNSHO - in my not so humble opinion, was first to use on Prodigy and USENet near 40 years ago.

That would be what the DPC cars for. ( Driver Participation Class cars )

[Ed Luddy]

On 2/8/2021 at 8:45 PM, edinmass said:

Driver participation class.........ALL cars are drivers. That’s why they have wheels. 

Read this please! ^^^^