1919 & 1920 Cole Motor Cars

[r1lark]

1 hour ago, George Cole said:

Coolant flows from the bottom of the radiator into the water pump mounted on the front of the engine.  It is pumped into the front of the bottom of the block on each side.  The coolant flows past the cylinders, rising to the top of the block on each side, where it exits into each head.  The heads are 2 inches thick, and hollow.  

 

George, was thinking about your engine flush - are you planning to flush in reverse flow? Reason I'm asking that, is there possibly more chance for trash to get stuck in the heads if you flush in the 'normal' flow path? 

[George Cole]

6 minutes ago, r1lark said:

 

George, was thinking about your engine flush - are you planning to flush in reverse flow? Reason I'm asking that, is there possibly more chance for trash to get stuck in the heads if you flush in the 'normal' flow path? 

Initially yes.  I'm going to disconnect the hoses from the water pump to the block and flush each side individually.

[BobinVirginia]

I had no idea that the Cole has a V8! The engines do resemble the Cadillac but I read your post that they aren’t interchangeable. Does the caddy motor have water jackets in the heads as well? Super cool and ahead of their time with keeping head temps down! I learn something new on the forum everyday. 

[1912Staver]

Thanks very much for all the photo's George. That gives me exactly the information I need!

 

Greg

[George Cole]

1 hour ago, BobinVirginia said:

I had no idea that the Cole has a V8! The engines do resemble the Cadillac but I read your post that they aren’t interchangeable. Does the caddy motor have water jackets in the heads as well? Super cool and ahead of their time with keeping head temps down! I learn something new on the forum everyday. 

 Cole & Caddilac both had engineers designing V8 engines with Northway in 1914. Cadillac's began production in January 1915. Cole's began production 2 months later. Two totally different engines. I believe the Caddy engine was 322 cu in. Coles was 346.  No parts are interchangeable. Cole's had removable heads. Caddy's didn't.  Cole V8s were an option in 1915. From 1916 - 1925 all Cole cars had the V8s. There were a few changes to them, but the basic configuration remained the same throughout their 11 years of production.

[TAKerry]

I dont know who is crazier, the guy that designed the steering linkage, or the guy rebuilding it! 😁

[Terry Harper]

9 hours ago, George Cole said:

The heads are 2 inches thick, and hollow.  Coolant flows through the head around the top of the combustion chambers, exiting at the top center, where it is piped into the top of both sides of the radiator.  These pictures show the 3 water ports  (one on each bottom corner, and one in the top center) of the bottom of each head, where coolant enters the head from the block.    

 

Thanks George,

 

I am assuming the narrow web between paired cylinders is solid?

[George Cole]

25 minutes ago, TAKerry said:

I dont know who is crazier, the guy that designed the steering linkage, or the guy rebuilding it! 😁

The linkage shown is for the hand throttle and spark advance.  It gets more complicated than that, as both arms connect to concentric rock shafts which go through the right block between the 2 center cylinders.  They exit the top in the block Vee and have a similar set of arms and linkage which connects to the gas pedal linkage and the distributor.  There's something like 20+ pieces of linkage connecting it all.  And I didn't have any pictures or diagrams to reference when figuring it all out.

[George Cole]

15 minutes ago, Terry Harper said:

Thanks George,

 

I am assuming the narrow web between paired cylinders is solid?

The block is cast in 2 pieces.  It's split down the center of the Vee.  The 2 halves bolt together.  The bottom of the jugs are exposed from the outside and have no coolant around them.  The water jackets are only around the top of the cylinders.  I don't know if coolant flows between the paired jugs or not, but they're so close together I doubt there's space between them.  This picture is of my roadster engine.  The bare block halves are bolted together, but there are no pistons, crank, cam, etc.  The timing cover is bolted to the engine, but it's empty.  Likewise with the transmission case bolted to the other end.

Edited March 5, 2021 by George Cole (see edit history)

[BobinVirginia]

I really enjoy learning about the old engine designs. Cool stuff!!  Thanks  for sharing George!!! 

[George Cole]

I typically have days with this project where I go 1 step forward and 2 backward.  Yesterday topped that.  I went 0 steps forward and 3 steps backward.  My goal was to install the heads and torque them down.  There are 17 bolts in each head.  When I removed the heads I was surprised that a few of the bolts were torque-tight, but many were not much more than hand-tight.  My assumption was that whoever had been installing the heads was interrupted in the middle of torqueing them and they were left that way.  The existing head bolts were a mix-match of different types and styles of bolts, so I replaced all of them with new Grade 8 bolts.  For a lack of any Cole torque specs, I planned to do a progressive torque to 65 ft-lbs, as called for in the 1922 Cadillac V8 maintenance manual.  I got all the head bolts started on the right side.  Some screwed most of the way in finger tight and some only part way and were quite tight after that.  I snugged them all down and began with 30 ft-lbs from the center, to center-upper (which are also the coolant outlet bolts,) center lower, and discovered the right center lower threads were stripped.  I went to the next bolt and found the hole was stripped as well.  I stopped and removed all the bolts except for two, and went to the left side.  I started all the bolts finger tight, then snugged with a socket wrench.  I started at 30 ft-lbs again with the center, and the 2 upper (coolant outlet) bolts.  One of them was stripped.  I stopped and removed all but 2 bolts.  

 

My plan is to remove the heads, and use the old head gaskets to do a trial torque of all the bolts to determine if any more of the holes are stripped.  I just ordered a 7/16-inch Helicoil thread repair kit and will repair all of the stripped holes before trying again.  

 

Edited March 8, 2021 by George Cole (see edit history)

[Mike "Hubbie" Stearns]

That’s like having several Mondays in one week. It just sucks. Just keep at it and it will be all right. Great job. Mike 

[AHa]

Now you know why the guy stopped where he did with this car.

 

For your exhaust manifold, check out Lee Stohr @ https://www.stohrdesign.com/vintage-castings.html

[George Cole]

7 hours ago, AHa said:

Now you know why the guy stopped where he did with this car.

 

For your exhaust manifold, check out Lee Stohr @ https://www.stohrdesign.com/vintage-castings.html

Hadn't thought of it that way, but you could be right.  Stripping head bolt holes could very well be a show stopper for many good-intentioned people.

[George Cole]

The Mondays keep coming.  This is like the 5th or 6th one this week.  I made a bit of progress before hitting a stone wall again, so I'll begin with the good.  I did a test torque to 30 ft lbs of all the head bolts on both sides.  There was one stripped on the left side, and 3 on the right.  I started with the easy one.  I drilled, tapped, and put a Helicoil insert in the one stripped head bolt hole on the left side.  Cleaned everything up, put a couple of drops of WD40 in each bolt hole, installed the head with a new gasket, and torqued all 17 head bolts to a 65 ft lb progressive (30, 50, 65,) torque.  The first 2 pictures show the left side repair and the head installed.  It went so well my arm was getting sore from patting myself on the back.  The right side was more of a challenge.  Of the 3 bad bolt holes, only one was semi-accessible with the tap.  The other two required turning the tap a partial turn, then repositioning the handle for another partial turn.  Finally got all 3 holes tapped and Helicoil inserts installed.  I cleaned everything, oiled the bolt holes as I did to the left side, and installed the head with a new gasket.  Began the torque sequence to 30 ft lbs.  The last bolt to torque was the rear upper.  As pressure began increasing on the torque wrench, I heard a snap and I could feel the pressure release.  I stopped, removed all bolts, and pulled the head.  I discovered the block around the rear upper bolt hole had cracked.  I've been torqueing head bolts for 55 years and that's the first time I've ever cracked a block or even heard of a block cracking that way.  The second 2 pictures are of the right side block showing the crack in the upper left corner..

 

I'm not sure this can be fixed.  If it can, no doubt it will require the engine to be pulled and taken to a welding shop, as it's way beyond my welding capabilities.  Welding the cast iron block will require heating it in an oven to approximately 600 degrees Fahrenheit.  The question now is whether it can be fixed and if it can, will the engine have to be at least partially disassembled, as a minimum removing the rear pistons and valves.  I'm going to take pictures to my local welding shop and discuss options with the owner/manager.  

 

It's as if this car does not want to be restored.  Perhaps she had already given up and decided she was finally going to die a natural death, so now is refusing to cooperate in her own resurrection.  

 

If anyone has ever dealt with this issue before, I'm certainly open to suggestions. Thanks, George

[AHa]

George,

 

Are you sure you need 65 lbs of torque on the head bolts? I remember Chevrolet heads requiring 50 lbs

[George Cole]

 

12 minutes ago, AHa said:

George,

 

Are you sure you need 65 lbs of torque on the head bolts? I remember Chevrolet heads requiring 50 lbs

 

Farther back in the thread I explained why I chose 65 ft lbs.  Cole and Cadillac V8 engines were both made by Northway.  Although I was unable to find specs for Coles, a 1922 Cadillac owner's manual states their heads are torqued to 65.  Others including Kevin Fleck, the Cole Motor Car Registry owner, have torqued theirs to 65 as well, based on the Cadillac specs.  So that was the torque I chose to use.  

 

However, it wouldn't have made any difference whether I was going to 50 or 65, as the block cracked before I reached 30.  Thanks for the input.

[1912Staver]

That's a remarkably bad location for a head bolt . Way too close to two edges of the block. In short a fracture waiting to happen. Like others will advise , do not attempt to have it welded. Way too much chance of doing more harm than good. Get a pin repair from a crack repair specialist. I would also replace all 4 bolts in these top corner locations with studs and nuts. You don't usually have to install them as tight  as the bolts would be installed at . If you are concerned about tightness use a little locktite when you install them . Even somewhat lightly set { say 45 ft lbs } the studs will take the torque on the nuts without pulling out the block threads.

Were the threads good and clean before you installed the bolt that broke the casting ? Lightly run a tap down the threads to insure nice , clean threads.  Any chance you inadvertently used a bolt that was slightly too long ?

 

Greg

Edited March 12, 2021 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[JV Puleo]

What Greg said...welding is a very poor idea. Have the crack stitched. You will probably have to take it out but you will not have to disassemble the engine and there is no chance of it warping when heated because it won't be heated. (I'd guess you probably don't even want to think about the consequences of a warped block.) There are several threads on the forum dealing with this. Take a look at Mat Harwood's thread on his 12-cylinder Lincoln and Harm's thread on the 1903 Cleveland. Harm did the job himself and his cracks were a lot more challenging than those appear to be.

[Mike "Hubbie" Stearns]

I’ll agree, don’t weld, lock stitch it. 

[George Cole]

10 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

That's a remarkably bad location for a head bolt . Way too close to two edges of the block. In short a fracture waiting to happen. Like others will advise , do not attempt to have it welded. Way too much chance of doing more harm than good. Get a pin repair from a crack repair specialist. I would also replace all 4 bolts in these top corner locations with studs and nuts. You don't usually have to install them as tight  as the bolts would be installed at . If you are concerned about tightness use a little locktite when you install them . Even somewhat lightly set { say 45 ft lbs } the studs will take the torque on the nuts without pulling out the block threads.

Were the threads good and clean before you installed the bolt that broke the casting ? Lightly run a tap down the threads to insure nice , clean threads.  Any chance you inadvertently used a bolt that was slightly too long ?

 

Greg

 

I agree that the all of the perimeter bolt holes appear to be too close to the edges of the block, but there's nothing I can do about that.  There were a couple of studs in this (right) side of the block, but not in this particular hole, and none in the left side.   In trying to put it back to some semblance of original, I wanted to go with bolts, not a mix of bolts and studs. Yes, I already figured I'm going to have to pull the engine as there's only 5-inches of clearance from the back of the block to the firewall. 

 

When I discovered stripped threads in multiple bolt holes, I cleaned each of the holes, vacuumed them, and did a 30 ft lb test torque on them all.  This one in particular seemed okay at that time.  Both heads previously had a mix-match of 2.75 and 3-inch bolts with no washers.  Two of the holes in the right side block had been drilled out and retapped from 7/16-inch coarse thread to 1/2-inch fine thread.  I replaced all of the head bolts with new Grade 8 2.75-inch ones with a Grade 8 flat washer...and then had several bottom out, so replaced those with 2.5-inch.  I initially checked all the 2.75-inch bolts to make sure a 3-inch one didn't get slipped in by mistake.  Again, the one that cracked didn't appear to be a problem although this was the first time a new bolt had been threaded into it.

 

I remember reading the block stitching threads several months ago, but those articles were for larger cracks different than mine.  I'll go back and look at them one more time.  Thanks for the help, Greg.  

Edited March 12, 2021 by George Cole (see edit history)

[Terry Harper]

George,

 

Here is another thought. If the fracture is limited in its vertical extent why not drill the end of the crack to prevent further spread. Than, if possible, counter bore the hole to a point below the fracture to clearance diameter to remove the threads. Than as an option, if you feel you needed the added thread engagement - drill and tap the hole deeper. Dress flat the fractured area on the deck and let it be.  It looks like its far enough from the combustion chamber and water passages that it won't be a problem.

 

Counter boring the hole (to just below the fracture) to clearance diameter will relieve the tension in the fractured area caused when you torque the bolt. That little fractured area would just along for the ride.

 

I agree with what everyone else has said. Welding would be the very, very, last option.

Edited March 12, 2021 by Terry Harper (see edit history)

[George Cole]

24 minutes ago, Terry Harper said:

George,

 

Here is another thought. If the fracture is limited in its vertical extent why not drill the end of the crack to prevent further spread. Than, if possible, counter bore the hole to a point below the fracture to clearance diameter to remove the threads. Than as an option, if you feel you needed the added thread engagement - drill and tap the hole deeper. Dress flat the fractured area on the deck and let it be.  It looks like its far enough from the combustion chamber and water passages that it won't be a problem.

 

I agree with what everyone else has said. Welding would be the very, very, last option.

 

I was thinking somewhat along this line, but for now I cannot determine the length of the crack.  I started chipping the powder coating away, but even that's difficult with only 5" clearance between the block and firewall.  And visibility isn't good looking at it through a mirror.  Perhaps if I remove the floorboards, I can get better access from the interior of the car.

[JV Puleo]

There is something odd about the way this engine was designed. When threads were standardized – about the time this car was built – two thread forms were adopted. Coarse threads were largely intended for use in castings while fine threads, which are stronger but more fragile, were intended for use with machined parts other than castings where the metal was homogeneous enough enough for the fine thread to be cut safely. (The strength of the bolt or stud is determined by the minor diameter. Since fine threads are shallower, the minor diameter is larger. This is why fine threads have higher torque values.) The ideal cylinder head configuration would be a stud with a coarse thread on one end and a fine thread on the other. (Later RR cars used through bolts...the head bolts go right through the crankcase and are secured by nuts inside the engine only accessible with the sump removed.) Obviously, this wasn't always adhered to but in a case like this I would be tempted to fix the cracks and sleeve all of the holes to take a coarse thread stud. I doubt that Grade 8 is needed since it hadn't even been invented in 1919 and it may be that a softer fastener will work as well or better.

 

I confess that I place a much higher value on things working right than on copying original – and sometimes poor – engineering.

[BobinVirginia]

George, 

 

I’d use C2 locknstitch pins. Come in from the top side of the block to pull the crack together. Then from the deck eliminate the crack with pins downward in the direction of the bolt hole. Then use a thin wall Keen steel threaded insert. Use loctite 620 on pins and thread insert. 
 

There’s also what’s called a FullTorque insert you can use. These are threaded inserts that use the same hook-thread as a stitch pin. It’s very salvageable. I make these type of repairs regularly on large CAT engines. Wish you were closer and I could do it for you. 

Edited March 12, 2021 by BobinVirginia (see edit history)

[George Cole]

2 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

 I doubt that Grade 8 is needed since it hadn't even been invented in 1919 and it may be that a softer fastener will work as well or better.

 

I confess that I place a much higher value on things working right than on copying original – and sometimes poor – engineering.

 

These older, lower compression engines most likely don't require Grade 8 hardware.  But I live in a high, salt-air environment, 3 blocks from the ocean, and the Grade 8 is less prone to corrosion.  And of course they're less apt to being twisted off, creating more problems.

[BobinVirginia]

One of my big patients. It’s worth the time to salvage these 6,000lb blocks! 3520 CAT

Edited March 12, 2021 by BobinVirginia (see edit history)

[AHa]

I want to set one of those down in a T frame, throw some truss rods underneath the frame to help support the weight, and go racing!

[George Cole]

45 minutes ago, BobinVirginia said:

One of my big patients. It’s worth the time to salvage these 6,000lb blocks! 3520 CAT

 

My back hurts from just looking at the pictures.

[BobinVirginia]

Main caps are 70lbs each! 

11 caps and 44 splayed main bolts. They can be a workout torquing them!!! Lol

Edited March 12, 2021 by BobinVirginia (see edit history)

[George Cole]

Crack Control.  Crack Management.  Cracks-R-Us.  

 

I got a better assessment of the crack today and took some better pictures.  The crack is across the face of the block, extending on both sides of the bolt hole, as shown.

 

 

[George Cole]

The face crack extends through the back of the block, angling toward the corner.  It is 3/4-inch long on the back, which is the depth of the bolt hole.  The crack is not evident around the corner of the block, into the side facing the valley.  As the crack stops on the corner, there is no simple way to drill the end of the crack.  I decided to try the lazy-man's fix, and see if I could drill the existing bolt hole deeper, as there is 8-inches of block below the bolt.  I chose a 3/8-inch drill bit so it would center in what is left of the 7/16-inch threads.  The drill went in about 1/4-inch, and punched through into a water jacket.  So the possibility of drilling and tapping the hole deeper and using a longer bolt is not an option.

 

Edited March 13, 2021 by George Cole (see edit history)

[George Cole]

9 minutes ago, BobinVirginia said:

Main caps are 70lbs each! 

11 caps and 44 splayed main bolts. They can be a workout torquing them!!! Lol

No wonder your shoulder is f***ed up.

[BobinVirginia]

George, 

 

I would definitely come in from the left side starting at the base of the crack and overlap the pins. C2’s will work great pin it through the bolt hole. A half inch will work there. You can stager pins at angles for better holding power. They have a piloted spot face tool. Just don’t angle to sharp that the shoulder goes below flush. You can achieve all this with a pistol drill. The C2 pins are roughly a 1/4” and we make field repairs with them often. 
Stitch the heck out of it through the head bolt hole. Then install the head as a drill guide for the threaded insert. You got this! You’ve got my contact info, call me or FaceTime me on an IPhone 

[BobinVirginia]

Worst case scenario it fails again. Grind the entire outer edge off the the through the center of the bolt hole. Cold weld the corner with Super 460 1/8” Nickel rod at low amperage. Lay in about an 1/8 build and peen with a needle scaler or slag hammer. Continue building up slowly then put a welding blanket on something insulated on it and let it cool slowly. This being on the outside of the block isn’t likely to cause issues. The heat will dissipate to the atmosphere. You can fix it! 👍🏻

[AHa]

JB Weld will totally fix this. Just get the part as clean as you can. I would fill the hole and redrill and tap, and presto, you have a new part! It never worked that way for me but thats what they claim.

[BobinVirginia]

9 minutes ago, AHa said:

JB Weld will totally fix this. Just get the part as clean as you can. I would fill the hole and redrill and tap, and presto, you have a new part! It never worked that way for me but thats what they claim.

There is a product called Belzona Super Metal that’s pretty impressive. Check it out if you have a low pressure crack repair. Fuel and solvent proof! Great stuff!!! 

[George Cole]

11 minutes ago, AHa said:

JB Weld will totally fix this. Just get the part as clean as you can. I would fill the hole and redrill and tap, and presto, you have a new part! It never worked that way for me but thats what they claim.

Sounds almost as good as a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.

[George Cole]

I can't see any type of 'super glue' holding a torque of 65 ft lbs.

[BobinVirginia]

5 minutes ago, George Cole said:

I can't see any type of 'super glue' holding a torque of 65 ft lbs.

Nope, but there’s some quite impressive options nowadays. Nothing beats a truly solid repair though