'51 dusc brake conversion HELP!

[51BuickWoody]

We bought a Wilwood disc conversion kit for our 51 Buick Super Series 50. Everything fit great until I tried to attach the new brake caliper. Apparently Wilwood brakes skipped the 51 series 50. Their website lists it, however Wilwood has confirmed that their kit does not fit. The bracket that attaches to the spindle to mount the caliper is not big enough. Does anybody know if the '41-'49 spindle will fit on a '51? 

[buick man]

My advice would be to send it back and reclaim you money.  Rebuild the stock system and/or install a portioning valved master brake cylinder system.  The stock factory braking system was designed by engineers to completely stop your 4,500 pound car just fine and if you are not wearing a seat belt can easily put your head into the windshield thank you.  

 

I fully understand the desired trend in doing these conversions but cannot understand they are necessary nor completely advisable.  Why ? ... Well for one the primary goal or premise in installing a disk brake system is the desired notion of being able to stop sooner in a shorter period of time during a panic braking scenario is it not ?  However, it would be wise to remember that faster stopping times also require a suspension and steering system that can withstand the forces now applied throughout these components to accommodate that goal.  Therefore, modernizing all the other original front suspension and steering components is necessary to do this right otherwise one cannot achieve both stopping and control dynamics as a complete system. Sadly but true, your original components are not designed to take the additional torsional stress loads that a disk system will assert upon them to get you into that like a modern car " quicker braking response window " that a properly designed disk brake component system can offer because that modern system offers both safe increased stopping and overall control responses.  If you are looking for safe stopping technology and a system to go with that you must consider all the other steering and suspension components on your car.  Otherwise, the unilaterally applied disk system singularly attached to the rest of your old factory suspension and seeing components will greatly stress factory original king pins/ball joints, spindles, tie rods, A-frames ... etc ... So If one desires to properly overcome these factory design limitations, then cut the front of your frame off thereby eliminating the old factory suspension and steering components and weld-on a Fat Boy setup or any of the other ones out on the market that will also supply you with the requisite rack and pinion steering components and suspension components to help you safely achieve your goal of not only being able to stop in a shorter panic stop but to also allow you the proper suspension dive and steering control parameters that a panic stop requires.  That or just don't tail gate anyone and practice the old 20 feet for every 10 mph rate of travel rule practiced for years between you and the car in front of you before Star Bucks and Disk Brake systems became one and the same and tail gating became the norm  and national past time .... Just my thoughts and educated opinions.  

[old-tank]

Sheeesh --- The man just asked for a solution to his problem, not a lecture!  He has so far contributed to our knowledge base on his interesting project.  Maybe the original drums and bearings are shot and by the time he sources the inferior reproduction  pacific rim junk the conversion makes sense.  And brakes will have no effect on suspension components.  The early Corvettes used some of the same parts.

[TexasJohn55]

Do my eyes deceive me? It looks like that grease seal in the rotor hub is in backward, if it is, is the rotor seated on the spindle?      John

[Matt Harwood]

11 minutes ago, TexasJohn55 said:

Do my eyes deceive me? It looks like that grease seal in the rotor hub is in backward, if it is, is the rotor seated on the spindle?      John

 

Try this first. It looks wrong to me, too.

 

I also see that the "leave it alone and rebuild the stock stuff, it'll work better" advice has been given, which is worth considering.

 

If everything else is right, I would make this Wilwood's problem to solve. They said the kit would fit, it doesn't, they need to figure it out not you. They will surely try to kick the can over to you and say that your car is wrong, but that's highly unlikely and I don't believe Buick made any significant changes to the spindles in post-war years. This isn't your problem to figure out--if they're advertising a "bolt on kit" that works properly, then it needs to be exactly that. Forcing you to do reverse-engineering and machine work and who knows what else isn't what you signed up for and there should be some consideration there.

 

Frankly, if they can't make it right, I'd put it back to stock rather than try to modify original parts to make aftermarket stuff fit--you could compromise strength and safety, presumably exactly the thing you're trying to improve. And that takes you right back to fixing the stock stuff instead--on a car with the modest performance of a Buick Super woody, the stock brakes will be more than adequate. Put Roadmaster brakes on it if you believe you need more stopping power, they're fairly readily available, too.

 

To solve this particular problem, take it all apart, re-check all your work (especially the way the rotor is seated on the spindle), and if it still doesn't fit, then see what Wilwood says. We can't really offer more assistance than that because we don't usually install aftermarket modifications like this on our cars. I'm sure it's been done before but I can't even count the number of times that people have installed a disc brake "kit" and come here asking how to make the pedal not go to the floor or how to make the brakes not drag or how to get the parking brake to release or why it keeps chewing up wheel bearings. Even the most expensive "kits" require a lot of compromises and experimentation to function given the wide range of cars they're designed to fit. You're essentially beta-testing the "kit" on this particular year, make, and model for them.

 

Reset and then call Wilwood. See what they say.

Edited December 17, 2020 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[buick man]

15 hours ago, old-tank said:

Sheeesh --- The man just asked for a solution to his problem, not a lecture!  He has so far contributed to our knowledge base on his interesting project.  Maybe the original drums and bearings are shot and by the time he sources the inferior reproduction  pacific rim junk the conversion makes sense.  And brakes will have no effect on suspension components.  The early Corvettes used some of the same parts.

Edit... No lecture just schooling ... Sheesh .. or it it Sheethz or however they say it in Texas??  ... Oh, and of course you being the resident structural design engineer can testify to these conversions not making any difference at all on associated component stresses and all is cool ... get real. 

Edited December 18, 2020 by buick man (see edit history)

[TexasJohn55]

IT IS "SHEEESH" IN TEXAS IF WILLIE SAID SO!

[old-tank]

8 hours ago, buick man said:

23 hours ago, old-tank said:

Sheeesh --- The man just asked for a solution to his problem, not a lecture!  He has so far contributed to our knowledge base on his interesting project.  Maybe the original drums and bearings are shot and by the time he sources the inferior reproduction  pacific rim junk the conversion makes sense.  And brakes will have no effect on suspension components.  The early Corvettes used some of the same parts.

Edit... No lecture just schooling ... Sheesh .. or it it Sheethz or however they say it in Texas??  ... Oh, and of course you being the resident structural design engineer can testify to these conversions not making any difference at all on associated component stresses and all is cool ... get real. 

Notice that the OP has not been back and probably will not be back...and I call that a loss for most of us.

Stress?  Any brake, drum or disc will lock the wheels at least once at any speed and the 'stress' will be the same.

[TexasJohn55]

OP has not visited site since afternoon on day posted, Wednesday. He may have found problem. It would be nice to get feedback from someone who asked for help.

[MrEarl]

On 12/16/2020 at 11:31 AM, 51BuickWoody said:

Does anybody know if the '41-'49 spindle will fit on a '51? 

 

Just restating the question. Could this info possibly be found it a parts manual

[TexasJohn55]

Buick Man may know that, I don't have the resources for that but surely someone on here does.

[60FlatTop]

One of my best friends lives 4 miles from me and he will put disc brakes and a dual master cylinder on anything he can. I don't particularly see the value and would rebuild the original. I figure if we both thought alike there would only need to be one of us. He's a little older so he got here first. That would leave me in a bad spot. I'll go with diversity.

[Bloo]

On 12/18/2020 at 8:32 AM, TexasJohn55 said:

OP has not visited site since afternoon on day posted, Wednesday. He may have found problem. It would be nice to get feedback from someone who asked for help.

 

To be fair, we have gone on for a whole page and still no one has answered his question which was: "Does anybody know if the '41-'49 spindle will fit on a '51?". I don't know the answer.

 

 

 

[51BuickWoody]

On 12/17/2020 at 8:44 AM, TexasJohn55 said:

Do my eyes deceive me? It looks like that grease seal in the rotor hub is in backward, if it is, is the rotor seated on the spindle?      John

The seal looks as if it goes in the opposite direction but it only fits in the position it is currently in.

[51BuickWoody]

On 12/18/2020 at 7:33 AM, old-tank said:

Notice that the OP has not been back and probably will not be back...and I call that a loss for most of us.

Stress?  Any brake, drum or disc will lock the wheels at least once at any speed and the 'stress' will be the same.

Sorry for the long delay. I work odd hours sometimes throughoutthe week. I am heading to the Buick in a few minutes and I will check the grease seal. The directions provided are crudly drawn sonits hard to tell which side is which. 

[JohnD1956]

On 12/16/2020 at 11:31 AM, 51BuickWoody said:

We bought a Wilwood disc conversion kit for our 51 Buick Super Series 50. Everything fit great until I tried to attach the new brake caliper. Apparently Wilwood brakes skipped the 51 series 50. Their website lists it, however Wilwood has confirmed that their kit does not fit. The bracket that attaches to the spindle to mount the caliper is not big enough. Does anybody know if the '41-'49 spindle will fit on a '51? 

 

looking at your pictures I have to wonder several things:

1) Unless a 49 spindle is manufactured with a wider top end, I don't see how that will help you.  It would appear that the bracket is manufactured too small except in photo marked as #2 it would appear that the caliper has to be pulled out from the spindle and disc and then the hole might align.  

 

2) can the bracket be rotated top to bottom to make a difference? 

 

3) can the bracket be installed on the tie rod side of the spindle to make a difference?  

 

[51BuickWoody]

On 12/18/2020 at 7:33 AM, old-tank said:

Notice that the OP has not been back and probably will not be back...and I call that a loss for most of us.

Stress?  Any brake, drum or disc will lock the wheels at least once at any speed and the 'stress' will be the same.

Sorry for the long delay. I work odd hours sometimes throughoutthe week. I am heading to the Buick in a few minutes and I will check the grease seal. The directions provided are crudly drawn sonits hard to tell which side is which. 

[51BuickWoody]

After a quick conversation and reading through all of your comments and lectures (hahaha) we've decided that were just going to stick with the stock drums. Wilwood has already said that they will refund them. Now the search for bearings begins. I'm hoping they aren't very hard to find. 

[old-tank]

Bearings?  If the originals pass visual inspection after cleaning use them.  Otherwise: New Departure 909062 inner; New Departure 909065 outer.  Be careful with Ebay (some sellers seem to fish them out of a creek).

Shoes?  Have the drums turned by a brake/clutch shop and have them reline your shoes...specify soft aggressive lining that will stop 2 tons of Buick, then have the shoes arced to fit the drum they are intended for.  Set the anchor pin after installing (shop manual).  Buy a brake shoe caliper to make life easy.

[Bhigdog]

On 12/18/2020 at 10:33 AM, old-tank said:

Any brake, drum or disc will lock the wheels at least once at any speed and the 'stress' will be the same.

 

And once locked the stopping distance will be same whether locked by disc or drum. So unless one is often driving terrain that makes fade a problem or habitually misuses his brakes, discs offer no safety margin over drums. Anti lock brakes is a whole nuther kettle of fish..........Bob

[Bloo]

59 minutes ago, old-tank said:

Bearings?  If the originals pass visual inspection after cleaning use them.  Otherwise: New Departure 909062 inner; New Departure 909065 outer.  Be careful with Ebay (some sellers seem to fish them out of a creek).

Shoes?  Have the drums turned by a brake/clutch shop and have them reline your shoes...specify soft aggressive lining that will stop 2 tons of Buick, then have the shoes arced to fit the drum they are intended for.  Set the anchor pin after installing (shop manual).  Buy a brake shoe caliper to make life easy.

 

This right here^^ is how you get good brakes.

 

 

[buick man]

the Yes great responses and IMO the right choice to stay original and follow the good advice of our noted road warriors and please keep us up to date on your brake rebuild safari .....

 

As stated earlier, the differences in drums vs brakes comes in not the normal initial stopping scenario but when panic stops are required. Call it the money stop.  Those of us who have installed a disc system on an original drums platform, have noticed immediately the shorter normal stopping distances, little to no heat fade, consistent pedal travel, firmness and pedal return performance etc.  However with that said, the shorter stopping distances that a disc system provides, does apply increased forces on all associated components and increases suspension dive especially on a 4,500 lb. boat with coil springs on all 4 corners and too small factory sway bars ( if even present ). Now consider what is required in a panic stop.  Overall stabile control factors diminishes exponentially when you need it the most when braking and having to swerve or turn abruptly at the same time in a critical panic stop with components that were designed for an easy coaster stop.   After all folks too tend to eventually overdrive with a disk system installed and that is where potential problems arise ... Just some food for thought.

[60FlatTop]

When the guy told me disc brakes would resist fade in multiple panic stops I was kind of wondering if brakes were really the root of the problem.

[Guest]

17 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

When the guy told me disc brakes would resist fade in multiple panic stops I was kind of wondering if brakes were really the root of the problem.

I have been driving since 1959.  All of my working life involved partially or full time driving.  The smallest vehicle I have driven was a 1904 Oldsmobile and the largest was a GMC Astro towing a B train. Almost every North American make and size of truck or bus manufactured between 1947 and 1974 and many Professional Funeral vehicles from 1949 to 2016.  I can count on one hand the number of "Panic" stops I have made and never a multiple one.  Watch all around yourself all the time and descend a hill in the same gear you would ascend it in.