For Sale: 1927 Pierce-Arrow Model 80 - $25,000 - Annandale, NJ - Not Mine

[58L-Y8]

For Sale: 1927 Pierce-Arrow Model 80 - $25,000 - Annandale, NJ

1927 Pierce-Arrow Model 80 - cars & trucks - by owner - vehicle... (craigslist.org)

1927 Pierce-Arrow Model 80, 6 cylinder. 4100 Miles.  Warehouse and garage kept. Runs but needs a new battery

Contact: no phone listed

Copy and paste in your email:  373e113fe07734afbc1f3ceaf9998af8@sale.craigslist.org

 

I have no personal interest or stake in the eventual sale of this For Sale: 1927 Pierce-Arrow Model 80 sedan.

[Grimy]

Looks decent but price quite optimistic, depending on how it runs, which it would have to for me.  If you're asking $25K, why not put a $100 battery in a car????  And 4,100 miles since WHEN?  Not original paint, rubber running board covers instead of pyramid aluminum.  Wrong carb, and it almost looks like a motor oil jug is used in place of a vacuum tank, probably with an electric fuel pump.  The aluminum head (and aluminum rods) was used on the last 500 1927 80s before becoming standard on the 1928 81s.  That's a nice body style in the "coach" (less expensive) series which had wood grained steel window moldings (vs. mahogany on DeLuxe series) and a single-piece windshield.

[Fossil]

16 hours ago, Grimy said:

If you're asking $25K, why not put a $100 battery in a car???? 

You see this occasionally and why? The only thing I can figure is the owner is extremely frugal or they don't want you to hear it run. If they are that frugal no other money has probably been spent on it either. Ever!

[Grimy]

33 minutes ago, Fossil said:

You see this occasionally and why? The only thing I can figure is the owner is extremely frugal or they don't want you to hear it run. If they are that frugal no other money has probably been spent on it either. Ever!

I've been known to bring a 6V Optima battery, jumper cables, and a quart of gasoline when responding to such ads....

[edinmass]

Well, from the carburetor on it......it tells you why the guy won’t throw down for a battery. In a case like this, figure 15k to make the car go down the road reliably. Typical pre war car that hasn’t had a lot of attention in the last forty years. Too bad, looks like it could be a decent runner.

[trimacar]

1 hour ago, Grimy said:

I've been known to bring a 6V Optima battery, jumper cables, and a quart of gasoline when responding to such ads....

I understand, but these days liability is an issue. So, you try to start it, and something bad happens?  I hate the way it is, but let’s says it starts and something breaks? Valves lock up?  That happened to me, so not conjecture.

 

The proof of operability should be on the seller, and “ran twenty years ago when parked” is a liability, not an asset.  In today’s market, not hearing the engine run is a huge hit to the value, unless the owner is a close personal friend who you trust explicitly, and don’t mind tap dancing on their pointy little head if there’s an issue after bought.

 

Anyone buying a car that’s not running should figure that into the purchase price, as mentioned, could  a 2 dollar part, or a 20k rebuild.

 

Gee, just my opinion....

 

 

[Grimy]

4 hours ago, edinmass said:

figure 15k to make the car go down the road reliably.

Only if YOU are doing it....

[Grimy]

4 hours ago, trimacar said:

The proof of operability should be on the seller, and “ran twenty years ago when parked” is a liability, not an asset.  In today’s market, not hearing the engine run is a huge hit to the value, unless the owner is a close personal friend who you trust explicitly, and don’t mind tap dancing on their pointy little head if there’s an issue after bought.

I agree, David, that's why I offer the SELLER the opportunity to hook it up and try it--I won't do it myself, just want to deny him the opportunity to say "I don't have a battery."  And I say that if it doesn't run by the time I leave, I have to assume it needs at least $15k of engine work.

[edinmass]

18 minutes ago, Grimy said:

Only if YOU are doing it....

George.......I use numbers that a typical restoration shop would charge.......15 

k doesn’t go far when you do tires, fuel system, ect.........add in a carburetor and whatever else is incorrect. I have seen two series 80/81 cars melt pistons with incorrect carbs.......thus, I would insist it gets the right unit, which are available, and not particularly expensive..........I sold one for 500 dollars at Hershey two years ago.

[m-mman]

5 hours ago, edinmass said:

In a case like this, figure 15k to make the car go down the road reliably.

 

55 minutes ago, Grimy said:

Only if YOU are doing it....

 

For others who might read this thread. It looks like this car is "Just a flathead 6 cylinder". 

 

It is easy to look at it and (wrongly) think that it would be just as cheap and simple to rebuild or repair as any other flathead 6 such as a Plymouth or a Studebaker or even a 110 Packard. 

 

The truth is that when you cross that line into 'Full Classic' prices go up fast.  The cars were high quality limited production and expensive when new. This pattern carries over to anything you do to them today - It needs to be high quality and all the parts you need are limited and expensive. Like a lot of things in life, this is something that is difficult to understand unless you have actually experienced it. 

[Grimy]

46 minutes ago, edinmass said:

George.......I use numbers that a typical restoration shop would charge.......15 

k doesn’t go far when you do tires, fuel system, ect.........add in a carburetor and whatever else is incorrect. I have seen two series 80/81 cars melt pistons with incorrect carbs.......thus, I would insist it gets the right unit, which are available, and not particularly expensive..........I sold one for 500 dollars at Hershey two years ago.

OK, but S80 buyers, cheap-asses as we are, rarely use "typical resto shops."  Most of us S80 Boyz do the work ourselves, thank you very much. Yes, $500 is still about right for the correct "Pierce-Stromberg" carb.  Add $200-300 for the correct vacuum tank.  I have seen one S80 "melt" a piston--probably one you saw too in 2011 in Fairport NY.  That one was a misdiagnosed sunken float, as I recall.  A good CAST IRON head (repairable) is about $750, and spend $200 at Lock-n-Stitch to fix it.  Can't really fix a messed up aluminum head.  If you have an aluminum head, you sure as hell better have a sacrificial anode residing in the upper tank of your radiator--or I'll have to assume the head is toast.

 

Can't find my record of new stainless valves, but about $12-15 each x 12; NORS valve springs @ $7, overhaul gasket set at about $250 in today's money.

 

20 minutes ago, m-mman said:

For others who might read this thread. It looks like this car is "Just a flathead 6 cylinder". 

 

It is easy to look at it and (wrongly) think that it would be just as cheap and simple to rebuild or repair as any other flathead 6 such as a Plymouth or a Studebaker or even a 110 Packard. 

 

The truth is that when you cross that line into 'Full Classic' prices go up fast.  The cars were high quality limited production and expensive when new. This pattern carries over to anything you do to them today - It needs to be high quality and all the parts you need are limited and expensive. Like a lot of things in life, this is something that is difficult to understand unless you have actually experienced i

True, which is why for these cars, membership in the appropriate single-marque club is essential.  Such clubs' members can tell you what has been reproduced and is STILL available (be quick to sign up when some parts are offered for future reproduction), and members have hoarded non-reproduced items and often will sell only to fellow members and not to resto shops.

[edinmass]

You forgot clean the gas tank, pull the generator, starter, distributor, and water pump......and go through them. Flush the cooling system, Drop the pan, flush the transmission, flush the rear end. Then check out the steering box, lubricate the chassis.......check the springs, shackles, and shocks............making it sorted and reliable is quite a bit of work. I estimate that half the series 80/81 owners do their own work.........but I see many in shops. Fun cars when done correctly. Always wanted a touring car but they are just too tight for my size frame.....and size 14 feet don’t help with the pedals.

 

I agree parts and spare are the most difficult part of owning this series, and almost no reproduction parts are available. You would think with all the project and barn find cars there would be more stuff available.

Edited December 3, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Grimy]

Tush, tush, that's normal stuff we discount for when buying something that's not frequently driven.  Some of those can be done over time, using the old "ever-increasing concentric circles" of proving reliability.

 

Ed, you are so damn spoiled!  Many of us mere mortals can get into these cars only because some of those things need to be done!  If these offered cars were Modoc Tour-ready (talk about the ultimate test of your sorting skills), they'd be worth a lot more and I, for one, couldn't afford them!  And of course we all specify what needs to be done to that S80 before it's worth the asking price.

[edinmass]

7 hours ago, Grimy said:

Tush, tush, that's normal stuff we discount for when buying something that's not frequently driven.  Some of those can be done over time, using the old "ever-increasing concentric circles" of proving reliability.

 

Ed, you are so damn spoiled!  Many of us mere mortals can get into these cars only because some of those things need to be done!  If these offered cars were Modoc Tour-ready (talk about the ultimate test of your sorting skills), they'd be worth a lot more and I, for one, couldn't afford them!  And of course we all specify what needs to be done to that S80 before it's worth the asking price.

 

 

George....you and I have well over 100 years total in the hobby, the new guys, who are looking to get in probably can't do 20 percent of what you can in the garage. They ALL need help......and it's best to let them know what they are getting into. I have never bought a well sorted car...........because it's my angle into getting through the door for less money, and I enjoy making cars better. There are vertually no people under 40 that have a basic tool box, and the ones that do only have metric tools. Todays young mechanics are "technicians" and have very little experience turning wrenches..........maybe some under car experience but I don't know one single person under 40 years old who has installed a crankshaft............on a V8 Chevy.........never mind on a straight eight. The good mechanics today are in the industrial and agricultural fields.....not the automotive fields. As cars go electric there will be even less of the wrench spinners.............just a fact. 

[Grimy]

3 hours ago, edinmass said:

George....you and I have well over 100 years total in the hobby, the new guys, who are looking to get in probably can't do 20 percent of what you can in the garage. They ALL need help......and it's best to let them know what they are getting into. I have never bought a well sorted car...........because it's my angle into getting through the door for less money, and I enjoy making cars better.

That makes us both geezers, I guess, although you're 20 years younger than I, my friend.  I've always bought "older restorations/refurbishments," or incomplete restorations that I could finish with mechanical skills (I have zero metal straightening or painting skills)--which got me into cars that I could not have afforded if they had been well-sorted.  It took me seven months of weekends/some evenings work before I could actually drive my first Pierce, the 1925 80 sedan, although I drove it on the trailer to bring it home, and it took another year of further sorting.  I then ran it on at least ten Modoc Tours.  Now the engine is with Greg for rebuild; that engine was tired and loose as a goose when I acquired it, but I got 20,000 miles of pleasurable touring. 

 

I'm uncomfortable with your attacks on the young.  I never had a shop class, and began by learning to fix the POS I got when I was 15-1/2.  Learned by collecting manuals, reading, watching others and asking a LOT of questions.  Then DO, screw up a few times, Do Again, and sooner or later it's right.  EVERYBODY can become competent with tools that way.  So I want to encourage our readers here to try and try again.  I've found that I always learn best in any form of endeavor when I "have to stand on tip-toe," to reach beyond my comfort zone of the moment.

Edited December 3, 2020 by Grimy
typo + add a phrase (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Not attacking the young......they have been raised much differently than most of us here have........and lets face it........they haven't been given many the oppertunities that we were given...few fathers teach mechanics to their children today...because you really can't work on a car since the mid 80's............everyone I knew as a kid learned to drive a stick on a lawn mower........they are all automatics now........I took typing in high school in 1980.......the subject no longer exists .......kids learn it at four or five years old now............chopping wood...........it's modern lifestyles that alter how kids are brought up. I agree with pushing your skills out of your comfort zone.......it's the only way to expand your skill set. I actually did some welding in the shop this week......I'm terrible at it, but getting someone down here to do what I needed was impossible........I pulled it off........and made a decent job of it.

[Matt Harwood]

13 hours ago, edinmass said:

You forgot clean the gas tank, pull the generator, starter, distributor, and water pump......and go through them. Flush the cooling system, Drop the pan, flush the transmission, flush the rear end. Then check out the steering box, lubricate the chassis.......check the springs, shackles, and shocks............making it sorted and reliable is quite a bit of work. I estimate that half the series 80/81 owners do their own work.........but I see many in shops. Fun cars when done correctly. Always wanted a touring car but they are just too tight for my size frame.....and size 14 feet don’t help with the pedals.

 

I agree parts and spare are the most difficult part of owning this series, and almost no reproduction parts are available. You would think with all the project and barn find cars there would be more stuff available.

 

You say that like people are actually doing those things or any of the other stuff you mentioned. We talk a lot here about making the cars right and going through all the systems to make them function properly, but almost nobody does. Even cars I get from reputable collections or guys who use them frequently or even noteworthy restoration shops are rife with issues that everyone just kind of ignores. Get it running, if it steers straight enough to not crash into the trees and stops well enough to not hit the car 100 feet ahead of it, well, most guys figure that's enough. I'll wager that whomever ends up with that Pierce will put a battery in it and pour gas into the tank and crank it over without touching anything else until that battery is toast. Then they'll install a second battery after putting some kind of "miracle cleaner" liquid in the gas tank, spray the carburetor with Gumout, and hope for the best. They'll change the oil but they won't drop the pan. Maybe they'll drain the radiator but most likely they'll just pour some tap water or green anti-freeze in the top and call it good enough. They may or may not notice that the generator is working and if it's not they won't drive it enough to know it. If the tires are round-ish and still hold air, well, that'll be good enough, too.

 

That covers about 85% of the old cars out there (yes, yes, I'm sure everyone here is in the 15% that doesn't cut corners).

 

And ultimately, that kind of half-assery really only costs a few bucks after the purchase of the car and now it's a running, driving, "ready to tour" Pierce-Arrow to which they'll attach a bigger sticker price despite being quite a bit less than it seems. After all, they spent all those hundreds of dollars on it to get it back into shape.

 

/not joking

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

You say that like people are actually doing those things or any of the other stuff you mentioned. We talk a lot here about making the cars right and going through all the systems to make them function properly, but almost nobody does. Even cars I get from reputable collections or guys who use them frequently or even noteworthy restoration shops are rife with issues that everyone just kind of ignores. Get it running, if it steers straight enough to not crash into the trees and stops well enough to not hit the car 100 feet ahead of it, well, most guys figure that's enough. I'll wager that whomever ends up with that Pierce will put a battery in it and pour gas into the tank and crank it over without touching anything else until that battery is toast. Then they'll install a second battery after putting some kind of "miracle cleaner" liquid in the gas tank, spray the carburetor with Gumout, and hope for the best. They'll change the oil but they won't drop the pan. Maybe they'll drain the radiator but most likely they'll just pour some tap water or green anti-freeze in the top and call it good enough. They may or may not notice that the generator is working and if it's not they won't drive it enough to know it. If the tires are round-ish and still hold air, well, that'll be good enough, too.

 

That covers about 85% of the old cars out there (yes, yes, I'm sure everyone here is in the 15% that doesn't cut corners).

 

And ultimately, that kind of half-assery really only costs a few bucks after the purchase of the car and now it's a running, driving, "ready to tour" Pierce-Arrow to which they'll attach a bigger sticker price despite being quite a bit less than it seems. After all, they spent all those hundreds of dollars on it to get it back into shape.

 

/not joking

 

I do know a few guys that have more than one car and literally don't cut any corners.  They are also tremendously wealthy.    I think the reality is for most people,  even garden variety millionaire types you have to pick your battles.   My idea is that we should all be buying someone else's over the top restoration for pennies on the dollar and then plan on some amount to do the actual sorting that never happened.

 

[Ken_P]

On 12/3/2020 at 8:32 AM, edinmass said:

 

 

George....you and I have well over 100 years total in the hobby, the new guys, who are looking to get in probably can't do 20 percent of what you can in the garage. They ALL need help......and it's best to let them know what they are getting into. I have never bought a well sorted car...........because it's my angle into getting through the door for less money, and I enjoy making cars better. There are vertually no people under 40 that have a basic tool box, and the ones that do only have metric tools. Todays young mechanics are "technicians" and have very little experience turning wrenches..........maybe some under car experience but I don't know one single person under 40 years old who has installed a crankshaft............on a V8 Chevy.........never mind on a straight eight. The good mechanics today are in the industrial and agricultural fields.....not the automotive fields. As cars go electric there will be even less of the wrench spinners.............just a fact. 

 

Well, I'm not 40- and I haven't installed a crankshaft in a SBC, but I have installed one in a 237 Packard Six. So now you know one. It ran like a top when I got her all back together.

 

It's tougher now to work on cars, but I've been wrenching since I was 16. Wanted to change the oil in my truck, got confused underneath, and stripped out the drain plug hole! Then I decided it was time to ask my dad for help.  

Fortunately, it's been better since then.

 

There aren't a lot of people who are young and working on these old cars, but there are a few of us. I'm in the navy, so I move around a lot, but what I would love to find is a mentor close by. My dad is a pretty good mechanic (heavy equipment mechanic for 25 years), but doesn't have a lot of experience with pre-war stuff. I've gotten great help from a few guys over the years, but sometimes it would be nice to just have an old guy to listen to something for me, help tune my ears in.

 

I'm not in the market for this PA right now, but don't despair Ed - there are a few of us young guys with standard wrenches. I even have a set of tappet wrenches, and a full set of points wrenches! Don't have an induction heater or chassis ears yet, but Christmas is coming...

[edinmass]

Ken, You are invited to stop by and see my shop.............not many are. I'm in Southern Florida. I will take you for a spin in a world class car.......our military people get special treatment in our garage. Best, Ed

 

[Ken_P]

Wow, thanks Ed! I'm flattered.

 

I'll certainly look for an opportunity to make that happen, once the current craziness dies down a little.

[1912Staver]

I have not been in the car mechanics game since the late 1980's. At that time there were still a reasonable amount of younger people training to be mechanics.

Then I switched to ships and really had to up my game regarding the size and scope of tasks. Huge, complex machines , days of rigging on some jobs. And being part of a 6 or 8 person work unit. Also due to the cost of down time often very tight time pressures.

 As the years went by a significant amount of automation became a seriously complicating factor. When I first started there was almost no electronics on board except Bridge equipment. By the time I retired electronics were part of almost every system. Power management became completely computer controlled. Tying ships propulsion together with onboard power distribution and many emergency systems and preferential shut downs makes a extremely complex electronic control system.

The younger guys took to the electronics much more easily than us older guys. But often at the expense of ability with the " nuts and bolts " stuff. But time and experience turned some of them into very capable, all round people. The ships , vehicles and aircraft of the world still function just fine. And more of us old hands retire each year. So I have lots of faith in the younger generation regarding skills development. The machine world they operate and keep running is far more complex than what I learned in , mid 1970's onward.

 

Greg

Edited December 7, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)