Removing ancient tires Pt.2

[1912Staver]

I took inspiration and advice from Ed's epic White rejuvenation thread and started to tackle the 27" , 3 piece  rim / ancient tire dismount I have been avoiding for a long time.

Cool and damp this morning but I decided to see if a pry bar would even move the side ring. Big surprise , it actually moved enough that the snap ring popped free for the first couple of inches.

I started working around the rim with the pry bar and a rim tool, light smacks sideways on the rim tool in the sticky spots.

After about 15 minutes I had the lock ring off , and shortly after the side ring.

I then cleaned the part of the rim I could access. Some rust but not as bad as I expected. My Vaughn superbar was just the right shape.

I then gave the rim a few swift smacks { with a wood block to minimize damage } to see if it will move off the tire at all. 

Not much  { any ? } movement yet. I am going to heed Ed's advice and let it sit in the sun until later this afternoon.

Very surprised I have made it this far without destroying the tire.

[1912Staver]

A few more photo's, sorry Ed , no video. And no blood ...yet. I did smack myself a good one in the knee however, when the rim tool slipped.

Edited August 24, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

This should be the job they give prisoners instead of breaking rocks.

[1912Staver]

Funny story, that your comment reminded me of Matt. An Engineer I worked with told me the story of his summer between High School and Marine College. His father ; a Air Force officer , thought his son was enjoying life a bit too much. Lined him up with a Summer job through a good friend. The tire dept. of a large municipal bus co.

Several bus tires a day to dis-mount , repair and re - mount each day , all by hand. My co- worker said it was the hardest work he ever encountered.  Definitely kept his wild side in check!

 

Greg

 

Edited August 24, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

You may want to build a wooden platform so the tire has less pressure on the bead (your most major concern is not damaging your locking rings) and you want to try to break the bead first - perhaps big C-Clamps to break bead from rim.

Edited August 25, 2020 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

Ed's  suggestion of employing the heat of the Sun did the trick. I flipped the tire a few times to heat both sides . Gave it a few wacks with the hammer and slowly it started to move. Eventually I was able remove the tire. Some damage to the tire but far less than I expected. The fllap tore into a couple of pieces and the red natural rubber tube is starting to decompose.

But the rim and rings look usable.

 

Greg

[Mark Shaw]

The best tool for removing old hard crusty tires is a reciprocating saw.

Edited August 25, 2020 by Mark Shaw (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

Dad was in the tire biz.   One of his employees,  Pete,  was a serious alcoholic and came to work most Mondays half lit.  Dad would put him on dismounting several 10:00 x 20 truck tires.  By about the third tire he was sober as a judge.

[1912Staver]

19 hours ago, John_Mereness said:

You may want to build a wooden platform so the tire has less pressure on the bead (your most major convern is not damaging your locking rings) and you want to try to break the bead first - perhaps big C-Clamps to break bead from rim.

 

Hi John, the tire was a size oversize { 37 x 5 }for the rim and on the inside there was quite a bit of space between the rim and the ground { laying flat }. I agree that getting it apart without any damage to the metal parts is the #1 concern. 

There are a fair number of hammer marks on the rim from decades ago. I hit the rim quite a bit to dislodge the tire but always through that stout block of wood you see in some of the photo's. I don't thing I added any additional hammer marks.

But I will have to carefully work out a few of the worst old ones.

Does anyone produce the rim " filler strips " these days ? The ones that allow you to use a straight side tire on a clincher rim. 

I have some photo's of the final stage but they are refusing to download from my camera.

 

Greg

[Jubilee]

  I maintained about 60 truck tires in my business until I retired at 78. Did all mounting, dismounting, and repair. All were 24.5 aluminum rims and a good quality 11:24:5 tire would usually break loose by dropping tire and wheel on the ground.

  Not so the low profile 11:24.5. They could be tough. I came up with an idea to fab a large C - clamp. Made it about 80% aluminum, made sure it pushed mostly on the bead area. Worked perfectly for years.

   Let air out while removing lug nuts. With tire standing up, put clamp on top of tire and run up with 1/2 drive air gun. May have to move clamp and repeat, but usually once would do it. I could usually pop the rim out without ever laying tire down.

   Later, I made a smaller clamp that allowed me to change TPS on cars/ pickups without removing the the tire/wheel from vehicle.

   I know I’m off topic. Thanks for letting me ramble.

[1912Staver]

Necessity is the mother of invention. It sounds like you came up with a great solution to your problem.

 

I tried a different download cable, sucess on the last batch of photo's.

Notice the rim filler is layers of fabric reinforced rubber sheet. I have also seen a filler band made up of what looks like a fine weave rope. I doubt these " universal " style rims were made after the 1918 , war time tire size restriction. 

I believe all the large clincher { and many of the large size straight side } tires were discontinued at this time. The postwar Firestone tire production program did not include any of these large clincher sizes as far as I know. { 24" - 28 "}.

 

Greg

 

 

[John_Mereness]

3 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

 

Does anyone produce the rim " filler strips " these days ? The ones that allow you to use a straight side tire on a clincher rim.

 

Greg

I assume they would be called a flap even for that era tire (they are the ones off to the right in your photo)  and I assume you will have to ask around via all the tire companies - they really are needed though.  And, as to caution - you can probably cut something down if none available, but you cannot have anything sticky near the joint (that is how accidents happen).   And, you really do need to talc the tire casing, the tube, and the flap - the talc allows for some shifting and prolongs life (and not enough talc on tubes from manufacture) - for years I have used Johnson's Baby Powder.  

Edited August 25, 2020 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

These were like 12 Ply truck tires (oversized and near petrified) and the car was standing on them perfectly fine (for years) with perhaps 5 to 10 lbs pressure in the tires

 

 

 

 

 

[1912Staver]

10 hours ago, John_Mereness said:

I assume they would be called a flap even for that era tire (they are the ones off to the right in your photo)  and I assume you will have to ask around via all the tire companies - they really are needed though.  And, as to caution - you can probably cut something down if none available, but you cannot have anything sticky near the joint (that is how accidents happen).   And, you really do need to talc the tire casing, the tube, and the flap - the talc allows for some shifting and prolongs life (and not enough talc on tubes from manufacture) - for years I have used Johnson's Baby Powder.  

Hi John, it's not the flap I am talking about. The things I will eventually need are filler rings to use straight side tires on clincher rims. At one time { 100 years ago } they were reasonably common.  Lots of Brass Era cars had clincher tires

even in sizes as large as 36 x 4 { 28"} and 36 x 4 1/2 { 27" ].  As well Kelsey at least and probably Firestone as well made " universal style " rims that worked for either clincher or SS tires. The earliest ones had removable side rings both

inner and outer. you just turned the rings around to suit the style of tires you were using. Later on the inside ring was made one piece with the band; in clincher form, and for a SS tire you used the filler ring on the inside and reversed the outer

, removable side ring. Once the big clincher sized tires were discontinued in 1918 the filler bands became essential if you wanted to drive a car with " universal style rims ". Cadillac had them O.E.M. in about the 1915 era, but they were also sold as 

a service part to fit to any car with "" type A " Firestone rims.

They are shown in my last 3 photo's.

 

Nice Packard !

Greg

 

 

Edited August 26, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

In a pinch I can always fill the clincher shape with lightweight epoxy, it's not like I am ever going to want to use these rims with clinchers.

 

Greg

Edited August 26, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[AHa]

Greg,

In the past people have used appropriate size rope to fill the groove but are you sure the rings are not reversible?

[1912Staver]

Yes , I have seen rope used as well, but I was impressed by the improved solution of the factory made ; just badly deteriorated by age, filler  ring I removed from this rim. The outer ring is removable and  definitely reversible but the inner is one piece with the main band of the rim and needs a filler

on that side only , to use with a straight side tire.

 On these slightly later style rims only one side ring is removable, the outer. On the earliest version both side rings are removable.

 

Greg

Edited August 26, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[trimacar]

Somewhat related, I was putting new tires on my ‘10 Hupmobile, having a lot of trouble so I clamped the wheel in my vise (I have a very big vise).

 

Tire iron slipped, hit my head.

 

Explaining to the doctor in the emergency room that I split my head open changing a tire, he became worried I’d hit my head harder than I thought....

[Restorer32]

Try explaining to a young ER doc that you broke your arm crank starting a 1928 Autocar.  "Crank starting? I don't understand".  I finally sent him to the hospital medical library to look up "Chauffeurs' Fracture".  This was pre-internet.

[1912Staver]

That's very interesting. I was under the impression that the filler strip was suitable for regular use.  That puts my rim situation in a bit of a pickle.  27" rims are rare and expensive used and really expensive new. I thought I was extremely lucky when I found the 3 I have to go along with the pair of type E rims I already had.

I might end up on 25 " Buffalo wires after all.

 

 

Greg

[edinmass]

You can see the rope used on the two Spare tires I took apart last week.

[1912Staver]

I was wondering about that rope in your photo's Ed. I wasn't sure if it was a filler strip or just a length of rope you were using to work the tire off the rim.  Are all 6 of your rims this style or just the two spares ?

 

Greg

[John_Mereness]

11 hours ago, Ben P. said:

Well, don’t let me scare you off. There are people who’ve used filler strips on clincher rims for decades. I don’t know how far their cars have traveled with them, but they’ve done it.

 

Guess the point I was trying to make is - if you’re a novice like me (packing water pump nuts for the first time nearly killed me) just know these things were considered a stop-gap measure from the get go. Are filler strips produced today? No. Someone tried to explain to me how he used jumper cables to make a filler strip. Would I attempt it? Nope.

Agreed, there are people that have been successfully touring for years and if they can do it so can you.   I would say, the worse problem is people not understanding how to talc the casing, tubes, flaps, leaving sharp spots on rims, poor quality tubes, and other stupid installation things done by people who were not around people who successfully toured or chose to not follow the oldtimer's advice. 

 

As a sidenote, I have been out on the highway in large brass cars and going 75 mph and we probably should not have been doing that (and I have been out in single cylinder things going 50 mph while I was holding the flashlight too for night driving and we should not have been doing that either), but we did do it regardless (on any other occasion though the cars pretty much never hit 40 mph  or maybe an occasional 45 mph on a tour).

Edited August 28, 2020 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[dibarlaw]

Just dealing with the Jaxon style split rims are enough of a trial. I bought a 22" rim at Hershey for a friend that had an ancient General tire. The rim was able to collapse and I was able to fight off the remnants of the tire.  Interesting that the inner tube was in great shape. When first pulled from the tire it was very light gray. After washing off and oxygen got to it it turned brown.  After 3 years it still holds air.

The flap was a great piece of workmanship. Felt lined composition rubber/canvas.

It would be much easier to install rather than the awkward, heavy rubber ones found today.

 When I took off the crumbling 22" Wards Riverside from the spare rim of my 1925 Buick Master the red rubber tube was stuck to the rim and to the inside of the tire. I found a really nice 600X22 U.S. Peerless tire with hardly a crack. I will use that as a spare! Putting on a not so flexible tire on a split rim was quite an "EXPENSIVE" chore. It felt pretty flexible.....New tube/flap on freshly powder-coated rim with plenty of talc.

 Using the rim compressor /expander I just about had all about buttoned up except to having the rim drop parallel into place for final locking. I had to use a 5' bar for leverage. While standing on the tire I leaned into the bar with my right shoulder and chest...POP!!! Not the sound of the rim joint meeting but the sound of my rotator cuff being torn in 3 places.

 

I was able to finish the job 6 months later.

 

 

 

[John_Mereness]

3 hours ago, Ben P. said:

Welp, I’m glad I stuck my nose in this business because after reading what all the Model T folk had to say I went with the camp that said flaps were a gimmick to sell and not necessary for someone who knows how to install tires without damaging them in the process itself. New tires not installed yet - placing order for flaps today.

 

The flashlight thing: I never tried that but my 1st car was an antique when I got it and a couple of worn generator brushes caused the lights to dim right out when I took my foot off the gas. So when I’d see the sheriff’s car anywhere near a stop sign I’d put the car in neutral and floor the gas.

He thought I was really trying to get his attention and stared me down but actually I was trying to keep his attention away from something else....

Somehow I never got pulled over. Well, not in that car anyway. I had a ‘69 Olds Cutlass coupe that I’d probably still own today had I the slightest clue that my Grandfather had lent my Dad his police scanner.

*enough*
Ben P.

No way around this being offensive, but the Ford folks tend to be a little on the cheap side - a few bucks saved in flaps allows for a whole lot of justification.    Not too worry though, there are Duesenberg people making mistakes doing this today as I type this too (and just about every other car imaginable as well).  Moral of the story:  It takes a lot of AACA, CCCA, Horseless Carriage and ... touring matched to listening to what people say - and some times they are right and sometimes not so much (aka why second and third opinions work too). 

 

The people that make gutter strips out of bike tape also leave a lot to be desired in their opinion too (aka keep anything sticky away from a tube) - aka a car is a whole different beast than a bike of a motorcycle.

[John_Mereness]

1 hour ago, dibarlaw said:

Just dealing with the Jaxon style split rims are enough of a trial. I bought a 22" rim at Hershey for a friend that had an ancient General tire. The rim was able to collapse and I was able to fight off the remnants of the tire.  Interesting that the inner tube was in great shape. When first pulled from the tire it was very light gray. After washing off and oxygen got to it it turned brown.  After 3 years it still holds air.

The flap was a great piece of workmanship. Felt lined composition rubber/canvas.

It would be much easier to install rather than the awkward, heavy rubber ones found today.

 When I took off the crumbling 22" Wards Riverside from the spare rim of my 1925 Buick Master the red rubber tube was stuck to the rim and to the inside of the tire. I found a really nice 600X22 U.S. Peerless tire with hardly a crack. I will use that as a spare! Putting on a not so flexible tire on a split rim was quite an "EXPENSIVE" chore. It felt pretty flexible.....New tube/flap on freshly powder-coated rim with plenty of talc.

 Using the rim compressor /expander I just about had all about buttoned up except to having the rim drop parallel into place for final locking. I had to use a 5' bar for leverage. While standing on the tire I leaned into the bar with my right shoulder and chest...POP!!! Not the sound of the rim joint meeting but the sound of my rotator cuff being torn in 3 places.

 

I was able to finish the job 6 months later.

 

 

 

Yikes - this is why early cars are so challenging.