1964 Falcon overheating

[Voldad]

Greetings wise ones,

I have fired my engine and drove 12 miles (longest trip so far) to the muffler shop today. I got dual exhaust run out the back with round chrome tips and glass pack mufflers. Old school!

 

My set up is a 302 engine with 2bbl carb and c4 3 speed auto trans. The radiator is the original that I had repaired and flushed at a local radiator shop. My thermostat is a 190 degree. New water pump, new hoses and I am pretty sure I have my heater hoses routed correctly. I have the original fan and it is 2” from the radiator. Specs say 14.2 quarts of coolant. I have put at least 11-12 quarts in and continue to top off each time there is room in the radiator.

 

on my trip this morning the outside temp was about 73 deg Fahrenheit. I made it fine at 190 deg till I stopped at a light and it went to 210. I made it to the shop at 210 and there was a little steam and a little overflow (no overflow catch on this one). When I went back The temp outside was 83 deg and I made it 6 miles with no stops and it went to 210 again. I stopped to let it cool. I went back to get it 4 hours later and made it 3 miles at 190 and it went to 210 again. I was close to home so made it here at 215 deg. It has been sitting 15 min and is at 225 with a little overflow. 

 

Do I need to get an aluminum 3 core radiator or what?

Thanks! 

[Guest]

You probably need a radiator that was designed to cool a 302 engine. 

 

Before the days of overflow/recovery tanks there was a line on the top tank indicating full but often not saying that.  Many people kept adding coolant above this line and the system kept burping it out.  The line was there because the coolant expands as it heats up.  If there was no line the coolant when cold should just cover the ends of the core tubes.

 

Since you have modified things you should keep a book in the car at all times that list the exact pieces you have changed, preferably with part numbers and suppliers.  This book should go with the car if/when it is sold.

 

One of the big problems we have as new owners of an old car is all the unknown modifications that were done over the years.

[m-mman]

First question is why the 190 thermostat?   I would have to verify the original specs but IIRC the highest recommended was 180. Very common to run 160. 

High operating temperatures are used in new cars to reduce pollutants and increase efficiency. Your Falcon 302 is not going to become more efficient with higher operating temps. 

 

First suggestion:  Install a 160 thermostat and try again, it is more in line with the car's original design. 

 

Oh and in a Falcon it would be difficult to route the heater hoses incorrectly. In a stock installation there is no valve and the water flow is simply into and out of the core. If you routed them backwards, it could only move the fluid in the opposite direction. 

Edited August 11, 2020 by m-mman (see edit history)

[Voldad]

Thanks to both of you. I have all receipts so it will be possible to make the book. Also, I will try the 160 deg and see what happens. Thanks again.

[Voldad]

As I think more about it, even with the 190 deg thermostat, it works fine for a few miles. I have a gauge so I watch it build to 190 and I can tell when the thermostat opens because it stabilizes. Since it is obvious that it works as it should, why doesn’t it stay in the 190 range instead of going up to 210 or 220?

 

If I were to change to a 160 deg. thermostat, for instance, if it opened at 160 then, over time climbed to 185 or 190 would that be okay? Or would it indicate a deeper problem?

[ted sweet]

160 wont help

[Str8-8-Dave]

Thermostats do not control maximum temperature in modern cars unless the radiator and cooling system are oversized and have more heat rejection capacity than the engine is producing.  The purpose of the thermostat is to get the engine and coolant up to a temperature where it runs efficiently and can boil off condensate in the crankcase to keep the oil clean, meet emissions, etc, etc.  a 190 degree thermostat in a 64 Falcon V8 car is probably correct, I worked on cars of that era for years and Ford and GM ran 190-195 degree thermostats.  I replaced some of those when they failed open and the complaint from the customer was they were freezing in the winter because the engine couldn't heat the coolant enough to get much heat out of the heater on cold days.   210 or 220 degrees F will not result in boiling and coolant loss if the coolant is correctly mixed consisting of 50% ethylene glycol antifreeze and water and a correct pressure cap is in play.  A pressure cap plays an important role in preventing boiling.  For every PSI of cooling system pressure the boiling point of pure water goes up 3 degrees F.  At sea level that means a 10 psi cap would keep pure water from boiling up to 242 degrees F (212 degrees unpressurized + 10 PSI x 3 degrees or 30 degrees due to the cap).  It should also be noted that the boiling point of water falls just under 2 degrees F for every 1000 feet of altitude, which is another reason the car companies adopted use of pressurized caps.   Modern cars rely on the thermostat to set the minimum operating temperature, a 50/50 mixture of water and permanent antifreeze and a pressure cap to avoid the cost of a huge radiator with enough capacity to absorb the heat produced by the engine. In the days of cars up to about 1950 radiators were large capacity and unpressurized.  My 1931 Buick has a 4 gallon cooling system with a huge radiator that is not pressurized.  The thermostat in that car controls airflow across the radiator via a bellows thermostat in the top tank that works thru a linkage to open and close the louvers in front of the radiator rather than controlling coolant flow like in today's cars.  That thermostat begins to open at 150 degrees, the shutters begin to open at that point but in warm weather the coolant temperature rises to about 180 degrees, then levels off because that radiator has the cooling capacity to handle the heat rejection of the engine without the chemistry or a pressurized cap.  Modern day car companies figured out how to make cooling systems that could withstand pressure cycling and saved a lot of money by trading gobs of copper and brass for good antifreeze chemistry and a cheap pressure cap.

 

Edited August 12, 2020 by Str8-8-Dave
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[jrbartlett]

Among additional points to check:

 

Does sound like the radiator might be overwhelmed by the size of the engine. Falcons were small, economy-minded cars with small engines, so the original radiator may be too small for a 302.

Was the 302 block cleaned (boiled) out at one point?

Is the engine timing set correctly?

Is the vacuum advance in the distributor working?

Is the carburetor set correctly -- not too lean?

Is the coil breaking down under load -- I've seen that cause heating issues. 

Do the radiator hoses have anti-collapse springs inside them? If not, the intake hose may be contracting as the engine speeds up, blocking water flow.  

 

[m-mman]

5 hours ago, Str8-8-Dave said:

a 190 degree thermostat in a 64 Falcon V8 car is probably correct, I worked on cars of that era for years and Ford and GM ran 190-195 degree thermostats.  I replaced some of those when they failed open and the complaint from the customer was they were freezing in the winter because the engine couldn't heat the coolant enough to get much heat out of the heater on cold days.   210 or 220 degrees F will not result in boiling and coolant loss if the coolant is correctly mixed consisting of 50% ethylene glycol antifreeze and water and a correct pressure cap is in play. 

 

All this seems to assume a clean block and top quality good functioning radiator and pretty ideal conditions.

Lack of heater function is a rare complaint for a collector car, but running too hot in a 4th of July parade is. . . . Lower temp thermostats are an inexpensive method to adapt to less than ideal conditions in the rest of the system. 

[Str8-8-Dave]

28 minutes ago, m-mman said:

Lower temp thermostats are an inexpensive method to adapt to less than ideal conditions in the rest of the system. 

Sorry to tell you but if the system is not capable of cooling the engine the lower temp thermostat will open earlier but it WILL NOT keep the car from overheating.  On a zero degree day it will likely lower the engine operating temperature but not on the 4th of July.  If Voldad- the originator of this thread wants to prove that, he can remove the thermostat completely.  Unless the thermostat is defective his car will still heat up to 210-220 degrees assuming the same weather and road load.

[Bud Tierney]

Pressure system??

Had a little Ford---overheated slowly---did EVERYTHING but pull the engine apart...complete mystery..

One day, puzzling over it, dropped pretty like-new radiator cap on street---rust fell out---new cap, m,ystery so;ved!!

 

[rodneybeauchamp]

Just my two bobs worth.

 

Test the thermostat In a saucepan on the stove with a known thermometer to see what temperature it is when fully open. 
Test the cap to make sure it is holding pressure.

Test the temp gauge with another to make sure it is accurate.
Test the system under pressure to make sure there are no leaks.

 

May need a radiator shroud to help pull the air through, rather than around the radiator

 

Don't assume anything is working/correct without test and proof.

(My set up is a 302 engine with 2bbl carb and c4 3 speed auto trans. The radiator is the original that I had repaired and flushed at a local radiator shop. My thermostat is a 190 degree. New water pump, new hoses and I am pretty sure I have my heater hoses routed correctly. I have the original fan and it is 2” from the radiator.)

 

Just because a part is new, or repaired doesn’t mean it works properly.

Also, I would not run without a thermostat. Manufacturers would not spend the money and put one in if it wasn’t needed.
Rodney 😀😀😀😀😀😀😀

[Graham Man]

Lots of great information here.  A stock Falcon Sprint came with a 289 engine, basically same engine as the 302.  So the radiator should have capacity if it has been cleaned out and correct number of cores for a 289.  Back flushing the engine would be a good idea.  I am guessing you were having overheating issues or worried about the radiator if you had it cleaned?  If you do not clean out the block the garbage can move into and plug the radiator that is why they back flush, you might have to do the radiator again.  A new cap would be a great idea, pressure can be an issue.  Before it gets hot with the engine off/cold open the cap and see what your antifreeze looks like, should look new.  Start it up and let it idle watch to see if the fluid is moving and watch for garbage floating around.

 

I run a 1972 Mustang with a 302, never have had a problems in 100F+ temperatures, all stock.  I also have a 1965 Falcon 2 door hardtop.

[capngrog]

Sometimes it's not the cooling system.

 

I have a 1947 Chevrolet Sedan Delivery with a small block Chevy 350 and a T-350 automatic transmission.  From the time I bought the car 14 years ago until fairly recently, it had a moderate overheating problem similar to that described by the O.P., Voldad.  The car would heat up into the 210° - 220° range, just enough to give me the "white knuckle" syndrome while driving in traffic; however, it never did boil over.  I did all of the cooling system things: different thermostats, different water pumps, rebuilt the radiator, back flushed the engine, electric pusher-puller fans (even tried both in tandem), radiator shrouds etc.  The radiator was a custom job and sized to the car and engine, so it should have done the job.

 

When I first bought the car, it had a GM 6-71 blower mounted (installed by the second owner from whom I bought the car), and thinking that the blower might be making extra heat, I removed it and replaced it with 4bbl carb and aluminum intake.  No change.  As part of the blower swap, I had to remove and replace the distributor, and noticed at the time that there was no vacuum advance because of the blower.  Of course, I set initial timing and all that, but never checked the distributor timing curve.

 

A few years back, I was cruising the ol' interweb and stumbled upon a discussion thread (I've forgotten which forum) where they were discussing ignition timing's effect on engine operating temperatures.   It was mentioned on the thread that a severely retarded ignition advance curve can cause engine over heating ... "voila", as they say, I had a "light bulb" moment.  It turned out that my distributor timing advance was so far off as to be nearly non existent.  Oh sure, eventually, at high rpm, the advance would catch up, but I was seeing very little advance at normal driving rpm.  Rather than mess with the old distributor, I just bought a new one with vacuum advance.  What a difference that made!  The engine temperatures dropped more than 20° during normal driving!  I removed the electric fans and installed a stock mechanically driven (water pump pulley) fan which works great.  I've had no overheating problems since, and I live in Florida.

 

Check it out and good luck.  Let us know when you find the source of your overheating problem.

 

Cheers,

Grog

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

On 8/11/2020 at 3:56 PM, Voldad said:

 

 

My set up is a 302 engine with 2bbl carb and c4 3 speed auto trans. The radiator is the original that I had repaired and flushed at a local radiator shop. 

 

 This does NOT guarantee a clean radiator.  It should be rodded out,.       Using a point and shoot laser thermometer, check the temps on the surface,  left to right about half way down, when overheated.   or, about as simple, is to spray the front with a garden hose and observe the drying rate and area.  A spot /area that does not dry as quickly as the rest?   Plugged?

 

  Ben

[Voldad]

Installed new aluminun 3 row radiator today and put the 195 deg thermostat back in. Seems to have solved the issue. Thanks!

 

P.S. Also flushed coolant out and put in new. It had only been in for 40 miles but was rusty. Most probably came from old radiator.

Edited August 17, 2020 by Voldad
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[m-mman]

1 hour ago, Voldad said:

Most probably came from old radiator

 

No, most likely came from the engine block.  How did you flush the block? 

[Voldad]

I took the upper and lower radiator hose off, took thermostat out and ran water in upper till clear water came out the lower. The engine was actually in the truck running when I bought it so it shouldn’t have been too bad.

I will do an oil change again after a couple hundred miles as well.

[PauliD]

I too have a 64 Falcon. It has a 68 302 & an aluminum radiator-(There's an electric fan & a pulley fan) For four years it has run at a constant 180 degrees until this summer- it started spiking like crazy- 220+. I changed out the thermostat- 185 degree & gave her all new coolant (properly mixed to 50/50.) I picked up a radiator funnel kit to burp out any air- the issue persists. Its as if the coolant is boiling & it burps out violently - I picked up a kit to check for combustion gas in the coolant but it has come up negative- (Not burning coolant but I thought I'd check)- The only thing I can think of is blown head gaskets at this point. But before I go through with that little nightmare- I'd just like to see if there's something else I should check first. 

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

The radiator is plugged, I am guessing.  Almost always.   Pull it and have it cleaned.  Or replace.

 

  Ben

[Frank DuVal]

Flush the block.
 

If the new coolant in there is clean you can save it for reuse but strain it. 

 

If the rear “freeze plugs” are easy to remove and replace that is a good way to get the back cooling passages clean. I know, usually a terrible to access job. ☹️

[Littlestown Mike]

On 8/14/2020 at 11:40 PM, Graham Man said:

Lots of great information here.  A stock Falcon Sprint came with a 289 engine, basically same engine as the 302.  So the radiator should have capacity if it has been cleaned out and correct number of cores for a 289.  Back flushing the engine would be a good idea.  I am guessing you were having overheating issues or worried about the radiator if you had it cleaned?  If you do not clean out the block the garbage can move into and plug the radiator that is why they back flush, you might have to do the radiator again.  A new cap would be a great idea, pressure can be an issue.  Before it gets hot with the engine off/cold open the cap and see what your antifreeze looks like, should look new.  Start it up and let it idle watch to see if the fluid is moving and watch for garbage floating around.

 

I run a 1972 Mustang with a 302, never have had a problems in 100F+ temperatures, all stock.  I also have a 1965 Falcon 2 door hardtop.

Actually the 1964 Sprint came with a 260 V8.the 289 became available in 1965 in Falcon.