Turbinator Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 Gents, if anyone knows the name of this part please let me. Thank you Turbinator 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psychostang Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 That is a complete trans control switch, including mount that is used on any ST-300 with SP or ST-400 with SP(switch pitch). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbinator Posted January 29, 2020 Author Share Posted January 29, 2020 10 minutes ago, psychostang said: That is a complete trans control switch, including mount that is used on any ST-300 with SP or ST-400 with SP(switch pitch). Mr.Psychostang, many thanks for your timely response and help. Turbinator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted January 29, 2020 Share Posted January 29, 2020 Bob, Do you have the wiring for it? And can you post a picture of the side with the terminals? Thx, Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbinator Posted January 29, 2020 Author Share Posted January 29, 2020 Ed, I helped one of our ROA buddies ID the thing. Our friend doesn’t use a computer. I promised to help him this one time. We help those who help themselves. “Sweat equity” is one of my favorites. Turbinator Do you need the wiring or just taking it a step further? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loudogs13 Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 Hi Ed I guess I have to help my self .its a 3 wire my question was can I get parts for this ,it works fine I wanted to update the rubber if possible .has 3 wires on this .ive seen with 2 wires ty in advance for any help . Bob I’m sorry to have bothered you . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 (edited) I thought that if Bob has it as an extra, and it had the wiring with it, I'd make him an offer. I've never checked the one on my 65 so having an extra would be a good idea if..... I'll look at a wiring diagram tomorrow and see if I can come up with an answer for you. Ed Edited January 30, 2020 by RivNut (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XframeFX Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 I have gathered a few of these recently in wrecking yards and doing a lot of learning on the switch-pitch setup. I have different lengths on this switch including a rotary version for Oldsmobiles. The switch in Bob's image is the longer nailhead switch and nailhead bracket for ST-400s or '66 to '66 ST-300s. a Stator idle switch (snap-action switch) completes the setup. The shop manuals I have don't go into detail on the wiring. Simple to figure out with the forward contacts tied into the Stator Idle switch. Checkout the "65 Switch Pitch Connection" thread that has a scan in the last post from the '65 Shop manual on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loudogs13 Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 Hi Ed I’ll post pictures tomm I have the 2 wired 64. And the three wired 65 both have been gone thru by electric shop .and have the much needed brackets .the 64 2 wire has powder coated bracket .and all new wiring ,and 65 3 wire will be in same condition ,if you have any questions give me a call 516 369-2418. Ty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
first64riv Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 Does this actuator mount on the firewall or on the engine? I've seen one 1st Gen that had it in the firewall. Oddest thing ever. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 (edited) A bracket is attached to the engine using intake manifold bolts. So that the switch has some rotational movement, it is attched to a pin on the bracket. All of this is visible in the picture. In the picture, the stamped metal bracket is in the correct orientation. The switch would be rotated almost 90° so it could be attached to the carburetor. The eye above the orange rubber sleeve goes over a pin on the carburetor linkage. Edited January 30, 2020 by RivNut (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1965rivgs Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 15 hours ago, Loudogs13 said: Hi Ed I guess I have to help my self .its a 3 wire my question was can I get parts for this ,it works fine I wanted to update the rubber if possible .has 3 wires on this .ive seen with 2 wires ty in advance for any help . Bob I’m sorry to have bothered you . Keeping in mind new reproductions are surfacing often I dont believe there are are available parts for this component except "used". Tom Mooney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loudogs13 Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 Thank you tom Mooney .i thought Steele rubber might have rubber gasket .on mine there are no breaks and or cuts in rubber .i figured all gone thru at shop may as well change rubber . If it ain’t broke don’t fix it , ty again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1965rivgs Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 2 hours ago, Loudogs13 said: Thank you tom Mooney .i thought Steele rubber might have rubber gasket .on mine there are no breaks and or cuts in rubber .i figured all gone thru at shop may as well change rubber . If it ain’t broke don’t fix it , ty again Hi Lou (?), I mentioned that reproductions are always surfacing to say that there might be a repro rubber boot that I am not aware of. I was not indicating that a reproduction switch is available. Sorry for the confusion, Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loudogs13 Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 Np tom it’s for kickdown switch .the rubber was fine .i was gonna replace them due to age. .but if it ain’t broke don’t fix it . Ty Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRmanr Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 Here a pic of a '67 (non-Riviera) Switch-Pitch setup FYI. I believe all '67 switches had black rubber boots and male electrical connector / contacts verses earlier switches which had the wires connected directly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XframeFX Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 Wow, a '67 Skylark GS with the stars wars air cleaner and the last year for the switch-pitch. I wonder how that setup performs (400-4) compared to a heavier 1st Gen Riviera with a 401/ST400 w/switch pitch? Of course, there's still a couple of variables such as does it have the BOP ST400 switch-pitch or, an ST300 switch-pitch? And the final drive ratio would be a factor as well. Observations: Unlike earlier non GS Skylarks (image below), The Stator Idle switch is not on the dashpot but on the linkage as on '65 Rivieras. The 2-wire connector on the forward contacts of the combo switch (in the image) go to the Stator Idle Switch. The Combo kick-down/switch-pitch switch is shorter than the nailhead version. Image I have below shows a longer switch on a '64 300 cu in 2BBL Rochester because of a different bracket. Red boot, black boot. I haven't seen a pattern. encountered red boot on '64s. The black boot is more common. Combo switches are more common as I've seen them on V6s with a non switch-pitch ST300s where just the kick-down contacts are used. '64 Rivieras had just the 2-contact kick-down switch? Someone mentioned that Dashpots with the snap-action switch are still available as a jobber part? Image shows the switched dashpot. John B. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 (edited) Buick used the idle stator swith to throw the converter into high stall when the engine was at idle. Like at a stop light / stop sign, or any other time the car was completely stopped. The converter on the original ST400 was too tight and little old ladies didn't like standing on the brake when they had to hold the car at a stop. By adding the idle stator switch to the transmission the converter would shift to high stall and there was not the need for the extra pressure on the brakes to keep the car from creeping. Basically what I'm saying is that "if you're man enough" you don't need an idle stator switch. If you want the switch pitch controlled ST400 in your Riviera to be really quick off the line, do these two things. 1) install the converter from an ST300 in your ST400. 2) use the wiring for the idle stator to create a manual switch for controlling the high stall. Controlling high stall during initial acceleration is much like having a four speed transmission. In first gear, get rolling to an optimum RPM, switch to low stall ( all while in 1st gear), then shift into 2nd and 3rd gears as normal. Unless you're using passing gear, you don't want your trans in high stall at WOT and top end. Most guys who race a Big Buick only use high stall "off the line." I knew a guy who had a boattail Riviera with a prepped 455 and a 3.42 rear gear. He had it hooked to a 67 ST400 that he controlled the converter and shifts manually. That car was extremely quick out of the hole and once in drive it was fast. Because of its weight, it was raced in a low class. Used to whop the socks off many unsuspecting other cars in his class. Edited February 2, 2020 by RivNut (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XframeFX Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 Ed, I've had many TH400s in previous rides and loved them all. Now with the switch-pitch feature in my upcoming Dynaflow swap, my expectations are even higher. Don't know why I ever considered an OD transmission for my Riviera. I sold that 700-R4 after I purchased a 12" Torque Converter for my '65 ST-400 core. I've heard transitioning from high pitch to low pitch or low to high hangs-up in certain scenarios, high torque?. It's oil pressure to high so maybe the design has difficulty returning to low or, the other way? Upper in image, 13" Lower in image, 12" and 25 lbs lighter John B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 Nice thing about 700r4 and 200-4r transmissions is that you can install a high stall converter that has the lockup feature. Best of both worlds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbinator Posted February 3, 2020 Author Share Posted February 3, 2020 On 2/1/2020 at 12:11 PM, K Rmanr said: Here a pic of a '67 (non-Riviera) Switch-Pitch setup FYI. I believe all '67 switches had black rubber boots and male electrical connector / contacts verses earlier switches which had the wires connected directly. Thank you. I had no idea what it was. You learn a little everyday Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ca65riv Posted February 16, 2020 Share Posted February 16, 2020 Well, not sure how I stumbled on this post, but it was a great coincidence. Newbie here. I've been poking around under the hood of my recently acquired '65 and found this thing hanging-out just sitting on top of the brake booster. Not connected to the throttle and apparently missing the mounting bracket. From what I can tell from reading various posts and articles, this component seems to serve two purposes: Its got a microswitch in it that engages at idle to throw transmission into high stall to make it easier to hold on the brakes and the plunger activates at WOT to kick down the transmission? Am I close? Would I be right in saying, then, there's no ill-effect of having this thing not connected to the carburetor except for losing kickdown feature? Is it possible to find mounting brackets for these to reattach? Thank you. Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 (edited) You can't get much closer. You are right about both the high stall at idle and high stall when going for WOT. I am imagining that some previous owner swapped out the original carb and the replacement carb has no provision for mounting it. Remove the aftermarket air cleaner and post a picture of the carburetor. Edited February 17, 2020 by RivNut (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ca65riv Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 Thanks for the reply, Ed. Here are a couple of pictures of the carb. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 That is an aftermarket Edelbrock AFB clone. It does not have the needed linkage on the carb to activate the solenoids in the transmission for the kick down or the switch pitch. Before going too much farther, check to make sure that you have the original engine and a 65 transmission. The engine serial number should contain your VIN. The engine production code will have an L (1965) in it with either a T (401) or a W (425). [pictured is an illustration from a 1966 (M) 401(T)] Then you can ascertain if the transmission is a 65. There's an aluminum tag on the passenger's side that is painted and stamped with the year. There will be a code as well as the year. Codes have to do with type of shifter - column or floor - and rear end gearing (speedometer accuracy). If both of these numbers indicate that you do have a 1965 engine and transmission, then it will probably be worth trying to find a 65 (or 66 AFB) and get your transmission working correctly. I only say that because a 64 transmission does not have a switch pitch transmission and you can jury rig kick down linkage. Actually you'll be good to go with a 65 or 66 engine/transmission as well; it just won't be "numbers matching." You also cannot directly fit an OE air cleaner on the Edlebrock. Keep tinkering and you'll sort everything out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1965rivgs Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 3 hours ago, ca65riv said: Well, not sure how I stumbled on this post, but it was a great coincidence. Newbie here. I've been poking around under the hood of my recently acquired '65 and found this thing hanging-out just sitting on top of the brake booster. Not connected to the throttle and apparently missing the mounting bracket. From what I can tell from reading various posts and articles, this component seems to serve two purposes: Its got a microswitch in it that engages at idle to throw transmission into high stall to make it easier to hold on the brakes and the plunger activates at WOT to kick down the transmission? Am I close? Would I be right in saying, then, there's no ill-effect of having this thing not connected to the carburetor except for losing kickdown feature? Is it possible to find mounting brackets for these to reattach? Thank you. Tim The switch illustrated controls the kickdown feature and switches the trans into high stall before the kickdown happens. The "microswitch" which you mention is actually another switch which is located in the area where the throttle linkage turns from vertical to horizontal near the firewall. That microswitch is responsible for switching the converter into high stall when at a curb idle speed. Tom Mooney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ca65riv Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 Ah ok. It doesn't have a '65 engine in it. Engine serial reads 8J4008768 which appears to mean it's from a '63 Electra? Production code is a JT, confirming its a '63 401. Haven't had a chance to check out the transmission serial, the transmission has been replaced probably at least twice, I'll need to get under there to look. Is there a risk it's not even an ST400? I haven't even begun to research what transmissions came with any kind of 63 Buick. Does that rule out any likelihood of a Switch Pitch, and therefore this thing is just a vestigial appendage that nobody bothered to remove? Thanks for the help understanding all this... Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 Easy enough to tell without getting underneath the car. The ST400s have the PRND2L (PR DL in 64) shift pattern where R is right below P. A 1963 transmission (Dynaflow) has the unique PNDLR shift pattern where R is at the bottom of the pattern. Both the 64 and 65/66 transmission have 3 forward speeds even though the 64 only shows D and L on the shifter quadrant. Where is your Reverse gear? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 In regards to your previous question about finding a mounting bracket. Yes, if you find that you do have a 65/66 transmission, I'm sure one of the vendors, Gene, Steve, Larry, Bob, etc, will have one for you. It would not be hard to make one if all else fails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ca65riv Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 Thanks for the clarification Tom. My shifter is PRND. I did poke my phone under the passenger side until I could snap a pic of the tag . Looks like a BR 65 code which would suggest the expected trans for this car? Possible then just the block came from the 63 Electra? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 (edited) The BR code on the transmission tells you that it's geared for a 3.23 rear end. The 64 block can be used with the 65 transmission but it would have had to have had the crank hub modified to accept the 65 flex plate, or the original 65 crankshaft could have been used in the 63 block. Now that you know it's a 65 transmission, you'll probably want to get the kick down and switch pitch working. Edited February 17, 2020 by RivNut (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1965rivgs Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 9 hours ago, ca65riv said: Thanks for the clarification Tom. My shifter is PRND. I did poke my phone under the passenger side until I could snap a pic of the tag . Looks like a BR 65 code which would suggest the expected trans for this car? Possible then just the block came from the 63 Electra? If your engine is a `63 vintage there are some mods which would have been needed to mate the `63 crank to the `65 flexplate and converter. It is possible someone could have used the `65 crank in the `63 block which would eliminate the need for the mods. If the original `63 crank is still in place, there is a flange on the back of the `63 crank which must be ground flat for the `65 flexplate to bolt up. Sometimes folks will enlarge the center hole on the flex plate to fit over the flange instead of grinding off the flange but this effectively weakens the flex plate. Also, the nose of the `63 converter is large compared to the `65 so the hole in the back of the `63 crank is too large for the nose of the `65 converter and will not offer any support. The end result, especially if coupled with modifying the `65 flex plate, can be cracking the flexplate. There is an aftermarket spacer which is available that restores the converter nose to crankshaft support. If you need the kickdown mounting bracket send me a PM to work out the details, I should have one in stock, Tom Mooney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 IF needed I also have the crank adapter in stock. Tom T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ca65riv Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 Thank you for all the info. I seem to be missing the flexplate dust/inspection cover, which a brief search suggests these are hard to come by. I'll put that on my list too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 (edited) I'm assuming that this car is drivable and you just want to tidy it up. If so, someone has already adapted the 63 engine to the 65 transmission so you're not in need of the crank hub adapters or flex plate stuff, you just want the frilly stuff. There are a couple of 1965 Buick carburetors for sale on Ebay right now, from parts carbs to rebuilt ones; both Carter and Rochester. For 1965 Buick with a 401, the Carter number is 3921; the Rochester numbers are 7024050 or 7025140. Scower those classified ads in the back of the Riview and contact those vendors that have parts for sale. I mentioned Gene Guarnere - PA, Steve Lorenzen - IN, Larry Daisey -AZ, and Bob Stemm - MI earlier; they do a really good job of gathering 1st generation Riviera parts just for resale. There may be others but these are the ones with whom I've dealt and I can vouch for them. Just keep asking until all your questions have been answered. Ed Edited February 17, 2020 by RivNut (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1965rivgs Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 34 minutes ago, ca65riv said: Thank you for all the info. I seem to be missing the flexplate dust/inspection cover, which a brief search suggests these are hard to come by. I'll put that on my list too... I have one of those too if needed Tom Mooney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 AND, I have the proper 3921S core carb. also. IF wanted I could also rebuild it for you. Tom T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, telriv said: AND, I have the proper 3921S core carb. also. IF wanted I could also rebuild it for you. Tom T. I can vouch for Tom T. and Tom M. as well for what I would call hard parts; those things that keep you on the road. The other guys probably have those parts too, but I normally think of them to help you keep your car pretty. Getting a rebuilt 3921 from Tom would be like finding a gold mine. 💰 Edited February 17, 2020 by RivNut (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XframeFX Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 CA65RIV, correct on above. That combo Kickdown/switchpitch switch was put aside because the AFB clone doesn't have the correct bellcrank on the primary shaft. I bought a small AFB from a 300 cu in LeSabre just for the primary shaft with the correct bellcrank. I will swap into my '63 AFB or go for a bigger AFB clone like what you have if the primary shaft will fit. Tough to find a correct or donor carb! Also, you need the bracket for that switch and they are tough to find (Turbinator doesn't need his?) If you do find one, all you have to do is try to attach to the bellcrank of your AFB clone as Ed mentioned. The image I posted earlier in this thread with the red boot on the combo switch is a 2bbl 300 cu in '64 Skylark. I posted it to get an idea what the bellcrank should look like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1965rivgs Posted February 18, 2020 Share Posted February 18, 2020 6 hours ago, RivNut said: I can vouch for Tom T. and Tom M. as well for what I would call hard parts; those things that keep you on the road. The other guys probably have those parts too, but I normally think of them to help you keep your car pretty. Getting a rebuilt 3921 from Tom would be like finding a gold mine. 💰 I beg to differ...there are plenty of pretty parts in Tommy`s Toyhouse Tommy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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