drhach Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 Hi guys, I have a line on a dual quad intake with mismatched (but present) carbs and the correct air cleaner. I'm curious what the going rate may be for these. I have no doubt that the carbs need to be gone through. He believes the rear carb is 62-63 and front one 67. He also has the linkage assembly. I've seen a couple on ebay. There's a bare manifold for $750, a manifold with carbs for $1,850, a refurbished unit with no air cleaner for $3,600. None of them are flying off the shelves. I'm not worried about "correctness", so that carbs aren't an issue for me. Any input would be appreciated. Regards, Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drhach Posted July 23, 2019 Author Share Posted July 23, 2019 A couple of pictures Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 You have four separate items. Two carburetors - each with a choke unit. One intake manoifold, and one breather. I don't think you'll ever be able to get them all to work together. If you're looking for a 2x4 set up that works properly, find one for the year of your car (64, 65, or 66 only) and pay what's necessary to get a correct one. You don't say what you want to put them on. That will make a difference as well. You need to match carbs and kick down devices to the transmission. None of that is pictured either. Be prepared to pay for the right one. This is just a mish mash of parts. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drhach Posted July 23, 2019 Author Share Posted July 23, 2019 Thanks Rivnut. I'm starting to collect parts for the eventual rebuild of my 1962 401 Lesabre (I know, not a Riviera). The engine has a 2 barrel at the moment and I was thinking about some mild performance stuff. That was why "correct" didn't matter. I would also be hooking it up to my 62 Dynaflow. The guy is asking ~2,500 for the manifold, carbs and air cleaner. I'm gathering that I might spend close to that again to get it functional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 I've know of only a couple of guys who have managed to connect a rear carb on a 2x4 set up to a Dynaflow AND to a front carburetor. Took a TON of work and a lot of ingenuity. You would have to do a lot of different things to get a low compression '62 Lesabre engine to respond to two four barrel carburetors. The carbs would be the last thing on your list to "improve." You might be better off finding a four barrel manifold, massaging it to accept a 750 or 850 single four barrel. After you do the heads, pistons, cam, and exhaust. Remember, performance will be limited by the Dynaflow transmission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drhach Posted July 23, 2019 Author Share Posted July 23, 2019 Thanks again. Yes, the ultimate plan is to up the compression, port the heads, etc. I'm not looking for a maniac engine. Just something well built and fun. The engine has 136K on it now. It actually runs very well. But I know it's day is coming. So, I wanted to be a little preemptive and start gathering some of the longer lead time items. I'm not dead set on a dual setup. I know there are some perfectly good 4 barrel setups for a lot less time and money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbking Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 To really ascertain value, one would need to know the identification numbers of the carburetors. Lots of different carburetors can be modified to RUN THE ENGINE. I would highly suggest listening to Ed (RivNut) concerning the transmission. Since you will have a non-original application, you will need to determine just how "correct" in appearance you wish to be. The Buick air cleaner can probably be sold for 4 times what one could use to purchase a superior performing repop Ford unit. Again, how correct do you wish to appear? How much you actually spend for the complete set-up depends on lots of variables. Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drhach Posted July 23, 2019 Author Share Posted July 23, 2019 Thanks Carbking. There really is no "correct" appearance for a 1962 Dual Quad since they didn't exist from the factory. My main issue is up front cost compared to the follow on cost of getting it all to work properly. "Form follows function" and my primary concern is everything working properly. Time of course is another factor that extends greatly as you deviate from OEM. What I am gathering is that I probably wouldn't want to use either of these carbs. So, right there, I would be on the hook for two more. Additionally, there is the issue of kickdown for a dynaflow (which also didn't exist in 1962 for this setup). I suspect that his setup is not worth $2,500 and that probably another $1,000 (at least) would have to go in to it. Of course that still leaves the issue of the kickdown linkage. I think I just talked myself out if it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 Basically looking for the "Eye Candy" & the associated costs that go with it. It's always good to know yr, make (Buick we assume) & model. As you just answered in the last post we now know it's a '62. Model??? As you also stated NEVER made for a '62. Not that it can't be done, just what are you looking to spend??? At $2500.00 it's WAY overpriced. What's the casting number on the manifold. '64 is diff. than '65-'66. Be careful driving it too hard with that kind of mileage. 1st. & foremost between 100K-155K pistons have a problem of self-destructing in little pieces & normally ends up with a wrist pin through a cylinder wall. 2nd. is timing chain although no where near as bad results. And IF you are thinking of raising compression with off the shelf pistons you're dreamin'. You'll be lucky to get 8-1 or less. I supply MANY parts for "Nails" including custom made forged pistons. Tom T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 I've related this diddy before, but for you I'll do it again. An ROA member from the Denver area had two 1966 Rivieras - identical except one had the early Gran Sport 2x4 carb set-up and the other had the Quadrajet four barrel carb. He ran them both at the drag strip to confirm what he felt. The single four barrel Q-jet ran a quicker elapsed time, but the 2x4 car was traveling at a faster MPH (once it got there.) The Q-jet uses only what gas is necessary for optimum performance. It takes a while for the 2x4 engine to get to the point where it can use all the fuel that's being dumped into it. He felt that if the race had been 3/8 of a mile instead of 1/4 of a mile, the 2x4 car would have been both quicker and faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbking Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 Ed - I have no doubt as to the veracity of your last post, however (opinion) the big drawback to the factory dual quad set-up (for other than a trailered racecar) was: (A) the progressive linkage, and (B) the size of the carbs. Many years ago, a good friend brought me a professionally restored dual quad on a Skylark. It wasn't very quick, although once it got going it ran fairly well. I asked him what was the driving application. He told me he wanted something quick for his wife. I suggested to him that he run 3 timed quarter-miles, and compute an average. Then, we removed the 2 factory 625's AND the progressive linkage; and replaced them with 2 aftermarket 400's and SOLID linkage. He then ran 3 more quarter-miles and the average dropped 2 FULL SECONDS on the ET. By the way, his wife loved it Any multiple carburetion set-up must be set up for the car, and driving experience. There was a reason the factory used progressive linkage and 625's but street performance was certainly not the reason. I do not know a lot about Buick transmissions; but a little about Pontiac transmissions. The very best "bang for the buck" money one can spend on a 1964 GTO with automatic transmission, is to jerk the original transmission, and replace it with a turbo-350. Would be interested to hear how a transmission change might help the Buicks. Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 I can reply to this subject with some (???) authority. The way the old AFB's handle the air input for the secondary's is that as air demand allows the weighted flap opens. They NEVER open all the way. On a friends car that ran at the time 11's in the 1320. When we had the car on a chassis dyno I noticed the rear flaps weren't open all the way. I got two long screwdrivers while his foot was still in it & when I opened them ALL THE WAY the engine faltered for a split second. It didn't pick up any RPM's nor was there a boost in HP. It stayed the same. This is with an Edelbrock B262 that was ported & heads that were ported both done professionally. On a stock 2x4 set-up the engine is TRYING to glop as much air as possible which cuts down on the velocity of the flowing fuel/air mixture which, in the case of the "NailHeads", kills performance. They rely on this velocity/swirl to get the needed air/fuel into the cylinders.The "Nail" relies on that velocity to get the mixture flowing. When the velocity gets reduced engine performance suffers. In the higher RPM ranges then the 2x4 starts pulling but the 1320 is already over & must won't do more than 5000-5400 RPM's stock anyway. So to put it in perspective the 2x4 set-up is mostly "Eye Candy". As of this moment I haven't yet been outpaced with my 1x4 set-up comparing apples to apples against a 2x4. As far as a trans. change goes most go to a TH400 because a TH350 won't fit behind a "Nail" without an adapter. The TH400 weighs more. Weight is HP. The TH400 uses 40HP between the flywheel & tail-shaft. The TH300 about half of that. Then you have the traction problems associated with a 2.48-1 1st. gear ratio. ALL things being equal an average of only 1 tenth of a second and sometimes even less is achieved & sometimes with less MPH. As for the TH300 behind a "Nail" is it has the switch pitch feature which Pontiac did not have. Way back my friend had a '64 GTO auto. He was pretty disappointed with the cars performance especially from a dead stop. We swapped his "Guts" for the ones from a Buick TH300 & the car immediately WOKE UP!!! He couldn't believe the switch pitch made such a HUGE difference. It's almost like having a 4spd. with a switch pitch. I have a friend who drives his '65 Skylark GS with the TH Buick 300 & with a 3.23 rear gear has run a best of 12.23ET. Now the engine is not totally stock either but with the 2spd. they can ALSO run. Tom T. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drhach Posted July 24, 2019 Author Share Posted July 24, 2019 Great discussion, thanks for the feedback. It sounds like the dual quad is at best a marginal improvement with the addition of a lot of labor to get it right. That coupled with the redheaded step child that the guy was selling, I passed on the sale. I think I'll pursue a 4 barrel for when the time comes to rebuild the engine. I appreciate all of the "real world" testimony. So often, you hear second or third hand opinions based on no experience. Regards, Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 It's ALL based on experience!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chimera Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 Dual Quad Super Wildcat Rocks Your World!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drhach Posted July 25, 2019 Author Share Posted July 25, 2019 16 hours ago, telriv said: It's ALL based on experience!!!! I know, that's the difference. I looked for this kind of stuff on other forums and it was all based on opinion. Here it seems, people say, "I did this and here's what happened", versus "I had a friend who knew a guy who....." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
65VerdeGS Posted August 2, 2019 Share Posted August 2, 2019 On 7/23/2019 at 4:21 PM, carbking said: Ed - I have no doubt as to the veracity of your last post, however (opinion) the big drawback to the factory dual quad set-up (for other than a trailered racecar) was: (A) the progressive linkage, and (B) the size of the carbs. Many years ago, a good friend brought me a professionally restored dual quad on a Skylark. It wasn't very quick, although once it got going it ran fairly well. I asked him what was the driving application. He told me he wanted something quick for his wife. I suggested to him that he run 3 timed quarter-miles, and compute an average. Then, we removed the 2 factory 625's AND the progressive linkage; and replaced them with 2 aftermarket 400's and SOLID linkage. He then ran 3 more quarter-miles and the average dropped 2 FULL SECONDS on the ET. By the way, his wife loved it Any multiple carburetion set-up must be set up for the car, and driving experience. There was a reason the factory used progressive linkage and 625's but street performance was certainly not the reason. I do not know a lot about Buick transmissions; but a little about Pontiac transmissions. The very best "bang for the buck" money one can spend on a 1964 GTO with automatic transmission, is to jerk the original transmission, and replace it with a turbo-350. Would be interested to hear how a transmission change might help the Buicks. Jon. I can confirm Jon's assertion about the "bang for the buck" improvement of swapping a 2-speed for a TH-350 can make. I did this swap in my '67 Corvette coupe with Powerglide. What a difference! The TH-350 is dimensionally almost identical to the Powerglide, so it fit right in without any cutting or modification to the cross member. The 2.52 first gear of the TH-350 really improves launch from a dead stop, and having an intermediate gear (1.52) helps with climbing hills and with kickdown for passing. I added a shift kit, and slightly higher stall speed torque converter to the TH-350,. This swap transformed the car's character into a much more sporting machine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted August 2, 2019 Share Posted August 2, 2019 (edited) 28 minutes ago, 65VerdeGS said: I can confirm Jon's assertion about the "bang for the buck" improvement of swapping a 2-speed for a TH-350 can make. I did this swap in my '67 Corvette coupe with Powerglide. What a difference! The TH-350 is dimensionally almost identical to the Powerglide, so it fit right in without any cutting or modification to the cross member. The 2.52 first gear of the TH-350 really improves launch from a dead stop, and having an intermediate gear (1.52) helps with climbing hills and with kickdown for passing. I added a shift kit, and slightly higher stall speed torque converter to the TH-350,. This swap transformed the car's character into a much more sporting machine. If you're going that route, go with the 200-R4 o/d transmission and a 4.11 rear gear. The First gear ratio is a 2.72 and it has a .67 overdrive gear. The o/d would give you a 2.75 highway gear. The 700-4R has an even deeper 3.06 first gear but only a .70 o/d. Either one bolts right up behind the 67 'Vette engine. Not a bolt in behind a nailhead but can be done with an adapter. Now for you die hard nailhead ST400 guys. Use the smaller "switch pitch" converter from the ST300 in your ST400. Smaller torque converter means higher stall speed in the converter. Higher stall speeds mean you are quicker off the line. Edited August 2, 2019 by RivNut (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DE SOTO Posted August 9, 2019 Share Posted August 9, 2019 i have a bare manifold 2x4 401 425 Buick id like to get $500 + shipping from Ventura California Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NC1968Riviera Posted August 9, 2019 Share Posted August 9, 2019 5 hours ago, DE SOTO said: i have a bare manifold 2x4 401 425 Buick id like to get $500 + shipping from Ventura California You should list this in a separate thread and in the Buick For Sale/Wanted section of the forum. It'll get more visibility there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted August 9, 2019 Share Posted August 9, 2019 On 8/2/2019 at 6:30 PM, RivNut said: Use the smaller "switch pitch" converter from the ST300 in your ST400. The problem is finding one -- or any switch-pitch converter for that matter... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted August 9, 2019 Share Posted August 9, 2019 I Googled 'ST300 torque converter' and found quite a few references. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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